Watch out, you know what could be heading your way if you make those kind of suggestions... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVS
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Watch out, you know what could be heading your way if you make those kind of suggestions... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVS
(Ahh, someone I recall capable of polite disagreement... ;))
The border thing is a very valid point. The UK does however have a high level of social issues and youth gang-type violence (different type of gangs, but still groups that commit violence on other groups, race or even sports teams based) which I think would result in a much higher death rate if there was easier access to guns in the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar
I do think, socially at least, the UK is comparable on some levels with the US. More similarities than some place like Oz anyway, I would think. I seem to recall Scotland Yard and NYPD working very closely together in many areas. Hell, no two places are directly comparable, but if you're ever going to (or willing to) examine any serious social/crime issues then those imperfect comparisons are where you have to start.
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Originally Posted by MagnusVS
only 0.0279271 per 1,000 people of those is gun related.
0.00102579 per 1,000 people for the uk are gun related.
So we have more murders with weapons, But the UK murder each other in wildly differnt ways. Maby the UK needs to look into the other forms of murder and put regulations on them.
also crimes per capita
#6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
So while we may have more murders(.03 per 1k people)
you have 5 more people commiting crimes.
Magnus on an aside, if you were going to be killed how would you rather die, by a gun shot, a knifing, or a stoning?
sure... but with gangs such as ms13.. it is not an american gang. it is an international gang originating in south america. While the police of the u.k. may be able to control youth type gangs, ms-13 has large amounts of money behind it (drugs). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
I think comparing u.k. youth gangs to u.s. gangs is a bit like comparing a scooter to a tank. i could be way wrong.
The real reason I bring up gangs is that they are outside law enforcement, especially considering gun control.
New york is not representative of America. And the fact that Scotland Yard and nypd worked closely together really doesn't mean donkey poo. Hell the soviets and the u.s. bumped space capsules during the height of the cold war.Quote:
I do think, socially at least, the UK is comparable on some levels with the US. More similarities than some place like Oz anyway, I would think. I seem to recall Scotland Yard and NYPD working very closely together in many areas. Hell, no two places are directly comparable, but if you're ever going to (or willing to) examine any serious social/crime issues then those imperfect comparisons are where you have to start.
No, you're not "way" wrong. I'm certainly not comparing the types of gangs same-for-same, didn't mean to allude that, just that there were "gangs" that do commit violence with what they have at hand. Which in the UK is a lot less guns.
And NYC is no more representative of the US than London is of the UK, but it would suggest that someone somewhere thinks there is policing information worth sharing, however relevant (or not) to this issue (and how relevant neither of us here and now can say for sure in all honesty).
(and all that is really happening here is an exchange of ideas and thoughts, no one's making any accusations, just questions/ideas/thoughts, no?)
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Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
but you cant say for sure how often in those gang related murders the guns used were legally obtained. they could have easily come over the boarder and been used illegally.
Got you. Here is a thing to consider. Lets say the U.K. bordered India or Pakistan during the u.k.s slow decline from imperialism. Lets say many of the gangs in the u.k. were Indian or Pakistani. lets say India and Pakistan both had a large illegal drug crop.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
are u.k. gangs largely in charge of drug distribution and other organized crime int he u.k.? for some reason I thought they just road around on their scooters or club racers ;)
I think it's just the matter that u.s. and u.k. cops can't speak more than one language. ;)Quote:
And NYC is no more representative of the US than London is of the UK, but it would suggest that someone somewhere thinks there is policing information worth sharing, however relevant (or not) to this issue (and how relevant neither of us here and now can say for sure in all honesty).
You're probably right. And it was just this I was looking for: Alternative explanations. Of course Americans aren't worse than other people. But there's a fact that there are many murders being committed, and if it doesn't have anything to do with guns, people should come with other alternative explanations.Quote:
Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar
Still, it's 2,7 times as high.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverx2
Crimes aren't the same as murders.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverx2
I'd rather not die;) But as mentioned earlier in this thread: If a guy attacks you with a knife, your chances for survival are bigger than if he has a gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverx2
people are relating the amount of guns to the amount of crime. those numbers prove its an invalid arguement.
People in the uk are still being killed by things other then guns. why?
No one has even touched my comments?!
How the hell do those of you who are in favor of gun control think there is any way to actually control gun ownership?
C'mon...
five pages of discussion on a topic that cant actually happen?!
Gun control wont ever work because there is no way to actually control who gets a gun.
End of debate.
thats really not the end of the debate random, but thanks for playing.
we can control who can legally get guns and we do and it works, its the illegal guns that can not be contained.
The biggest issue is why are people killing people.
That just proves that gun control doesn't actually work.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverx2
Aren't the illegal guns most likely to be the ones used to hurt people?
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Originally Posted by random25
all the gun control in the world isnt going to stop jorge from driving over from t.j with a trunk full of ak47's
Wanna know how you handle people with illegal guns? the legal guns you purchased for safty.
I understand somewhat the differences due to border issues. I think the question both I and Marcus have been asking is (please correct me if I'm wrong Marcus, don't want to put words in your mouth), do you really believe the ready availability of guns has nothing to do with the level of deaths? If you do, then opinion noted, we can agree to disagree, and no further discussion in this area required. But if you accept that it may contribute in some way (no one's said it's the only contributor), then the next issue would be if it's possible to have some control over this area.Quote:
Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar
I like examining an issue point by point. Keeps it nice and simple for my brain to process. ;)
There is a level of drug crime in the UK. Lot's of Asian and Middle East immigrants and with the good sneak in the bad. Lot's of racial issues. Football club hooligans though nowhere near as bad as it once was. But the general inner city urban environment is not dissimilar to some US cities in it's social mix and "feel" - though hard to quantify "feel" really...Quote:
are u.k. gangs largely in charge of drug distribution and other organized crime int he u.k.? for some reason I thought they just road around on their scooters or club racers ;)
Cute. Please remove my name from your footer.Quote:
To help new members fit into Flashkit, three rules they forgot to tell you on signup: Rule #1: Learn Group Think, and behave accordingly | Rule #2: Do as Gerbick says, not as he does. | Rule #3: If you're from outside the US, don't at any time criticise, allude to, or hyperlink to criticism of the US or any of their laws, policies or practices. | Enjoy your time at Flashkit!
Quote:
To help new members fit into Flashkit, three rules they forgot to tell you on signup: Rule #1: Learn Group Think, and behave accordingly | Rule #2: Do as Gerbick says, not as he does. | Rule #3: If you're from outside the US, don't at any time criticise, allude to, or hyperlink to criticism of the US or any of their laws, policies or practices. | Enjoy your time at Flashkit!
How about I don't say PLEASE...Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick
TheOriginalFlashDavo remove gerbick's name from your footer or you will be removed, it's that simple. Harassing members (including Moderators and Super Mods) is against FK's AUP.
Also, try thinking about why you are always getting argued with, you are the common factor...
If you don't live and let live, I will ban and let those that are banned stay banned this time!
I would say it is a small contributing factor... and just how much Gun Control are you talking about. I have no problems with waiting periods and thorough background checks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
We should probably look at who is killing who. See how the figures break down for what. 66% of murders involve a firearm.
How much of that is organized crime. Gun control would do nothing about that.
How much is crimes of passion. I don't think gun control would do much, when you are pissed enough to kill you will kill with a gun, baseball bat or butchers knife.
How much is lunatics flipping out?
Doesn't happen in every state though does it? I recall someone said before that the trial of tighter laws in DC was never going to have much effect (even though it was taken to court and removed anyway) due to neighbouring states having more lax laws. So why not some consistency, at least trying something rather than nothing as appears to happen? Just seems like something worth considering.Quote:
Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar
Actually, the common factor is more often than not anyone with a viewpoint outside the "norm" in here. Observed this behaviour in threads I've had nadda to do with, and goes back over a number of years with folk who don't post here no more for that very reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by EVPohovich
So who was it that came out with the following merely due to a similar thread o discussion that has happened the last page or so:
"All of you.....**** it.....turds......pointing a finger at us need to stand down."
Yep, all my fault I guess for the thread spiralling into the abyss. :rolleyes:
(sorry TGLG, that might derail our conversation a little. Apologies, just in the mood to let the devil out today and not let sleeping dogs lie...)
Though before the thread goes off track again, interesting enough it seems the desire for stricter gun laws is gaining ground amongst the US public:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
"Although it is unclear to what degree more rigid gun control laws might have prevented the Virginia Tech tragedy, Gallup's data suggest that the public is, in general, open to the idea of stricter laws governing the sale of firearms and more rigorous enforcement of gun control laws."
http://www.poppolitics.com/archives/...d_popular_cult