one opinion I heard is that the woman felt it forces the man to treat her intellectually since he could not tell if she was hot or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionray
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one opinion I heard is that the woman felt it forces the man to treat her intellectually since he could not tell if she was hot or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionray
All of the questions in this and other islam forums here are being answerd by 5 of the arab world nation leaders right now on C-span 1 right now. If you have the ability to wattch it, you should.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampy
You are right it's not a stretch...its a chasm....You are not going back two gererations of direct ancestry like Hitler did in classifying Jews, you are trying to connect the two geneticaly and saying they share a similarity.
Hitler stopped at the grandfathers grandfather at least, you are trying to connect the two biologicaly,if thats the case then we are all related somehow.....so yes you cannot complare the two.
iTony
Is there a question there? Yes, we are all related. I've never actually met anyone who believed anything else. I mean, it's taught here in the schools.Quote:
if thats the case then we are all related somehow
But, more specifically, arab and jew are also related, blood, bone and hair. And not that long ago either, something like 4,000 years. All one tribe, and I'm not talking biblically.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4700414.stm
Sweden shuts website over cartoon
Quote:
[The site's host, Levonline, pulled the plug on the website of the Swedish Democrats' SD-Kuriren newspaper after consulting with the government.
It is believed to be the first time a Western government has intervened to block a publication in the growing row.
Skinhead sites and neo nazi's are next.
And all FrontPage home made sites after that.
Too bad they went to the government tho, they could have just added it to their TOS and pulled the plug on their own. That's nothing new, it's done with most hosting companies with pr0n and hate sites now.
SD-Kuriren can buy a server tho and put it up themselves.
LOL.....Yes'm...I can think of a few people I should disown...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
Yep,you are right there, except the Jewish origins can be traced to Persia, and are not Arabs ( strictly speaking)Quote:
But, more specifically, arab and jew are also related, blood, bone and hair. And not that long ago either, something like 4,000 years. All one tribe, and I'm not talking biblically.
The Point I have been trying to make though is that the Jews have been/were discriminated because of who they are NOT what they believe, most Jews are not really religious...unlike Muslims.
iTony
Yeah, I got that the first time around too. ;)Quote:
The Point I have been trying to make though is that the Jews have been/were discriminated because of who they are NOT what they believe, most Jews are not really religious...unlike Muslims
Some one should read the Bible before making these glorious claims about the Quran.Quote:
2. The Qur'an is the only religious scripture in the world that says,"marry only one".
Possibly, but there are more ways than that to say the same thing.. Like as in 1Timothy 3:2,12"......The overseer should be..a husband of one wife....so should deacons be husbands of one wife..."Quote:
The Qur'an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase `marry only one'.
1 Corinthians 7:2"....Let each man have his own wife...and each woman have her own husband ( no alowance for plurality )
Wrong again......and you don't have to go to the bible to find evidence of this either...Quote:
In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives.
It was written in the scriptures long before the Quran came into being...also Jesus in Matt 19:4-6 Said "Did you not read that He who created them from the beginning created them Male and Female, for this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife and the two wil become one flesh, so that they are no longer two but one...there fore what God has yoked together let no man put apart..."Quote:
It was only a few centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one.
All references to marriage By Jesus and the Apostles were directed at "One" Husband and "One" Wife. EG: Matt:19 8,9 " I say to you who ever divorces his "wife" ( not wives) or "a" wife, except on the grounds of fornication.... "
Sorry for the quotes...but I just wanted to clarify one of the many claims that seem to be made these days about How the Quran is so superior to other Holy books.
iTony
Just try and remember, neither of the books of either religion were written by the lead figures themselves, but by wannabe's who came after and more than likely had their own ax to grind, or profit to make from it. Therefore, neither one is worth the paper they are written on, not as true accountings of what these two actually said. It's not like they were taped or anything. More like some New York Times reporters byline, reporting on what was said. And we all know how good that is.Quote:
but I just wanted to clarify one of the many claims that seem to be made these days about How the Quran is so superior to other Holy books.
Amen......Brother..:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
Here is an interesting article today about Muslim Moderates:
Washington PostQuote:
What passes for moderation in the Islamic community — “I share your rage but don’t torch that embassy” — is nothing of the sort. It is simply a cynical way to endorse the goals of the mob without endorsing its means. It is fraudulent because, while pretending to uphold the principle of religious sensitivity, it is interested only in this instance of religious insensitivity.
Have any of these “moderates” ever protested the grotesque caricatures of Christians and, most especially, Jews that are broadcast throughout the Middle East on a daily basis? The sermons on Palestinian TV that refer to Jews as the sons of pigs and monkeys? The Syrian prime-time TV series that shows rabbis slaughtering a gentile boy to ritually consume his blood? The 41-part (!) series on Egyptian TV based on that anti-Semitic czarist forgery (and inspiration of the Nazis), “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” showing the Jews to be engaged in a century-old conspiracy to control the world?
A true Muslim moderate is one who protests desecrations of all faiths. Those who don’t are not moderates but hypocrites, opportunists and agents for the rioters, merely using different means to advance the same goal: to impose upon the West, with its traditions of freedom of speech, a set of taboos that is exclusive to the Islamic faith. These are not defenders of religion but Muslim supremacists trying to force their dictates upon the liberal West.
And these “moderates” are aided and abetted by Western “moderates” who publish pictures of the Virgin Mary covered with elephant dung and celebrate the “Piss Christ” (a crucifix sitting in a jar of urine) as art deserving public subsidy, but who are seized with a sudden religious sensitivity when the subject is Muhammad.
I think the obvious is finlay starting to be spoken about...
iTony
Great article. Thanks. This whole situation really exposes the basic ironies we're dealing with.
Does the cartoon create the wrong image, or does it reflect the image that people hold? That's the $64,000 question. If you tend to think that it reflects the the way Islam is perceived by a group of people, and that image is incorrect, the logical thing to do would be some soul-searching as to why people think that if it's not what you're all about and how to change their minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by emm_eye
Perfectly understandable. Which is all the more reason to do something constructive like dispell misconceptions or stop whatever is causing this bad image.Quote:
especially during a time when islam is not in the good books of most non-muslims in the west.. it is really disturbing for us..
Muslims don't like the way others perceive them. That's perfectly fine, but they can't blame others for that or get angry at them for how they see the world. You can't dictate how someone should perceive something. If there truly is a misconception, then there needs to be some serious thought about how to change it, not just outrage that plays right into that misconception. I think the quote from the article XU1 posted ("I share your rage but don't torch that embassy") is an illustration of why that hasn't happened.
Why am I agreeing with him so much lately?
it would seem that George Bush has actually done more to change Western misconceptions about islam than moderate muslims have.
Yeah, he changed misconceptions into proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by indivision
Probably because you are starting to see what kind of brew has been fermenting behind the scenes, Islam does not change its colors for any one....Quote:
Originally Posted by PAlexC
It's not just anecdotal evidence anymore that everywhere that this religion is found there is trouble and instability, there is a reason,and that is the teaching and life of their Prophet as explained by the Quran, and more frightening, as his life and conquests are explained by the hadiths.
Put those things together and you will see why there is a difficulty in separating the extreme from the moderate Islam......it does not exist.
iTony
Take god or religion out of the world picture, and it wouldn't be much different though. The world citizenry is still a bunch of stone age tribal retreads. All of us, we're all banded into our little tribes, like a pack of dogs, or ants in a hive, only rarely allowing a strange pack member or hive member into our midsts.
On the other hand, this is the natural order of things. Nature at it's finest. Maybe we ought not to fight it. War is part of the human condition. I think we should immerse ourselves in it, sort of like the american indians did. Make a ritual out of it though, so we don't kill ourselves off. Do away with nukes, carpet bombing, poison gas or anything more powerful or deadly than a Swiss Army knife and a good Hickory switch and just have the hell at each other. Steal each others women, cars, horses, for a couple months out of the year, then go back to work.
Minus the "higher" cause factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
ROFLMAO.......you keep making me laugh when I'm trying to be serious...:DQuote:
Do away with nukes, carpet bombing, poison gas or anything more Steal each others women, cars, horses, for a couple months out of the year, then go back to work.
iTony
Think about it. Everyone could get into it, gramma's, kids, Company CEO's. It would be more popular than Monday Night Football, and it would be audience participation. You wouldn't even need to build stadiums.
Christ, the Networks and beer companies would go nuts. Think of the commercials.
haha. its true. war and faith is in all human blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
Nietszche made the argument that the proximity of war on the doorsteps of the Greeks and Romans was the reason that those societies produced so many great individuals.
I totally agree with everyone. I also thought I'd make the 500th post.
WHOOOO HOOOOO!!! Wow this is one long thread.
so... we've progressed past cartoons to wife-swapping and total anarchy?
all without mentioning beer. I'm disappointed.
No, no, I just mentioned beer a couple posts back.
Well, beer commercials. But monkey see, monkey do. You see someone drinking beer, you want one. :)
Beer would sell good at a switch war, it's sweaty work whacking each other with little sticks.
haha. a switch war.
Sure, you'd have to have referees and judges and scorekeepers and you'd have to have regulation equipment. Switches made from Hickory or Oak, not to weigh more than say 3 ounces and no more than 40 inches long and they have to be 3/8 inch or less in diameter. Whole cottage industries could pop up producing regulation switches, maybe even have companies like Louisville Slugger or Wilson put out a line. Maybe some Tennis racket handle tape on the ends so you don't get blisters, even whicker hand protectors like on a foil.
The whole idea of war should not be to kill off a good enemy, but to just give him some whelts, so he can come back and take another switching next weekend. If you klill him, he can't buy the beer.
What is Norway worried about....if you put a Viking in the ring with an Fundamentalist....clearly the Viking will pillage and plunder.
id buy stock in johnson & johnson! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
I don't think most people here are afraid... If anybody is coming for me, I'll get my axe and my polar bear :DQuote:
Originally Posted by calpomatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
You are absolutely wrong here..
The Quran is a holy book which was revealed to Prophet Muhammed.
And not a single word of the Quran has ever changed.
Right. and how would you know that? You got the first draft to compare it with? A 1400 year old script? And mohammed was illiterate. He could not have written it. Even if he dictated it, it was supposed to have taken 23 years to write and he couldn't have known what it really said anyway.Quote:
And not a single word of the Quran has ever changed.
Does it really matter anyway, what it says? It seems to be open to interpretation by any bozo old enough to grow a beard as to what it means.
http://www.jannah.org/articles/quranwrote.html
Prophet Muhammed did not write it.. The Quran was sent by Allah to the prophet. and 1400 years is not a long time to keep a track on changes..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
Quote:
It is an incontrovertible historical truth that the text of the Holy Qur'an extant today is, syllable for syllable, exactly the same as the Holy Prophet (PBUH) had offered to the world as the Word of God. After the demise of the Holy Prophet, the first Caliph Hadhrat Abu Bakr (PBUH) assembled all the Huffaz and the written records of the Holy Qur'an and with their help had the whole text written in Book form. In the time of Hadhrat 'Uthman (PBUH) copies of this original version were made and officially dispatched to the Capitals of the Islamic World. Two Of these copies exist in the world today, one in Istanbul and the other in Tashkent. Whosoever is so inclined may compare any printed text of the Holy Qur'an with those two copies, he shall find no variation. And how can one expect any discrepancy, when there have existed several million Huffaz in every generation since the time of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and in our own time? Should anyone alter a syllable of the original text of the Qur'an, these Huffaz would at once expose the mistake. In the last century, an Institute of Munich University in Germany collected FORTY-TWO THOUSAND copies of the Holy Qur'an including manuscripts and printed texts produced in each period in the various parts of the Islamic World. Research work was carried out on these texts for half a century, at the end of which the researchers concluded that apart from copying mistakes, there was no discrepancy in the text of these forty-two thousand copies, even though they belonged to the period between the 1st Century Hijra to 14th Century Hijra and had been procured from all parts of the world. This Institute, alas! perished in the bombing attacks on Germany during World War II, but the findings of its research project survived. Another point that must be kept in view is that the word in which the Qur'an was revealed is a living language in our own time. It is still current as the mother tongue of about a hundred million people from Iraq to Morocco. In the non-Arab world too, hundreds of thousands of people study and teach this language.
The grammar of the Arabic language, its lexicon, its phonetic system and its phraseology, have remained intact for fourteen hundred years.
A modern Arabic-speaking person can comprehend the Holy Qur'an with as much proficiency as did the Arabs of fourteen centuries ago. This, then, is an important attribute of Muhammad (PBUH), which is shared by no other Prophet or Leader of Religion. The Book which God revealed to Him for the guidance of mankind is today's in its original language without the slightest alteration in its vocabulary.
This is taken from part of a speech "Message of Prophet's (saw) Seerah", given by Syed Abul 'Aala Muadoodi. He compares the history and authenticity of three scriptures, Torah, Injeel and Quran.
No offense intended, but I remain sceptical.
It's just me. I'm sceptical of all religious dogma.
And I simply do not feel that what was good for the stone age is good for the space age. People, any living thing for that matter, need to change and grow or they stagnate. Stagnation brings conflict and eventual death of a species.
dude, if a cartoon can incite a riot, then think if a word from a sentence in the actual book had been changed. chaos would have a new mentor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
there's enough sections within the religion that would cause all kinds of repurcussions with edits.
however, that's not the same with the Bible. Too many old texts put together from different languages to make up a story that Henry the 8th amended so he could get a divorce and get his freak on. You know other **** was added, subtracted.
Maybe we need a study on it to see if it was changed. Like the holocaust study called for by the idiot in Iran.
I simply refuse to believe that anything lasted for 1400 years unchanged. And it was not written by muhammed anyway, since he couldn't read or write. Maybe his scribe couldn't spell either. Who knows? The point is, anything from that long ago has no bearing on todays world, other than something to argue over. If your forcing people to go by something that old, your society is not going to last in today's world. As we can see already.
I don't know, most holy books generally preach pretty eternal things, like don't murder or rape or steal. You know, the good stuff.
That isn't exactly obsolete.
Virgo, I don't think a book as thick as the quoran only talks about those little things. Look at Iran, they run their country based off that book, apparently it dictates all matters of life.
I personally think this whole matter is blown way out of proportion, muslims all over are pissed at these morons who burn flags. So the Danish made a cartoon, they took it off the press, no harm no foul. Don't go hating the entire populace of that country for it.
Is it just me, or does anyone else notice that those people seem to always need someone to hate? Maybe that is how they avoid stagnation, they just hate someone else. It's possible that this propaganda helps reduce the questioning of the way in which they live.
Well, forgive me for not falling in line, but how the hell does a book get sent by some Allah fellow? I have to agree with Geezer on this one. I guarantee that this book has been modified to keep the people who are in power, in power, and to keep the people who are oppressed, oppressed. (and then have them believe everything is perfect on top of it all)Quote:
Originally Posted by emm
No, and those things are not only taught in biblical books. Stone age societies were fairly peaceful, took care of their people and got along fine, long before any pulpit punchers ever came along. While many of todays laws, and western human rights ideas came from the christian bible, the western world is and always has been just a small portion of the whole. many eastern religions are not even religions as we know them, and they were far more socially advanced than the west or middle east ever hoped to be, and still are.
Any morality play that dwells so much on what you can and can not do to an enemy is lacking something very basic when it comes to just living. Besides, isn't a religions concerns focused on the soul, and not on the physical world? Then why do they also want to control everyday life and minds? You have to ask why? :D
one soul - one man - one world - human
the bible and Qu'ran are basically extended sets of common laws, Laws of Hammurabi for instance pretty much laid down the same 10 principles as the 10 commandments.
I personally disagree with all major religions when it comes down to origin. I don't believe that the Bible was God's word... it's as collection of stories about God. And I say this as a Christian.
The fact that the Qu'ran hasn't changed in 1400 years, I actually can see and agree with that. A lot of other things have lasted that long without change - scrolls and the like from the Apocrypha are older than Jesus supposed birthdate. And parts were just recently discovered - Dead Sea Scrolls for instance.
Unchanged... mainly because they were either unfound, disregarded, or the opposite, regarded too highly.
With that said... it's all how you wish to regard it. The Bible, I know it was changed... anything with "version" attached to it sounds like it was under the editing knife a bit too much to be considered original.
The Qu'ran was heeded as "the word" from the moment it came forth. Changes to it would have popped up, even for the greedy people - say again, like an Henry the 8th wannabe in muslim times - it would have been suicide to alter it. That's why the mullah's shouldn't be taken too seriously... they "interpret" the Qu'ran in some rather devious ways to get people to do what they want.
But then again... so did Jim Baker, Swaggart, and that Benny Hinn dude. All of what comes out of their mouth... wrong as hell, corrupt as hell.
However old it might be.. The Quran was not for only the stone age people it was for all the generations that were going to come after it..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
And also.. the fact that what science is discovering today was written in the quran 1400 years ago makes it even more authentic for even more generations to come.
Quran and Mordern Science