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03-25-2002, 10:38 AM
Markosef

Dont worry man, i completly understand you, you just have a mature way of looking on flash/html thing, i agree with you, although once I was like this people you are arguing now i got wiser and now i can say your right, maybe just one thing, flash 3 isnt in my opinion really needed as a compatibility factor, because those who dont know anything about flash,players,plugins and are plain computer users, are even less certain to have flash 3 then flash 5.

Quote:

Originally posted by nocrapchurch
I think I'm still having trouble getting my point across.

I use Flash. I love Flash. I wrote the article on Selling Flash to Your Clients.

But Flash is not the end all of Web Development. Flash is a tool. Flash does some things very well that other tools do not. In some cases, using Flash would not be as effective if you were using other tools such as straight HTML (when I say "HTML", this includes pages like the one you're viewing which is a php page generated from a database).

Example: Amazon and eBay. These sites were developed a while ago, but if they were redone completely in Flash, they would bomb. Even if they were started from scratch today and developed completely in Flash, people would hate them. Why? I don't even need to point out the massive, programming nightmare this would be, but those sites need to be in HTML. People need to be able to send links with no problems and they need to be able to enlarge text, the pages need to fit the full width of the screen, etc. These are things that Flash couldn't handle as well.

These sites are also continually expanding and changing. Flash just doesn't handle expansion and changes 1/100th as well as HTML does.

And shall I point out that Flash Kit is done in HTML? :)

My Point
You don't use a hammer to screw in a screw. Although the hammer is a great tool, its not the only tool you will ever need or use.

-scott
http://www.scottmanning.com/
03-25-2002, 12:09 PM
nocrapchurch

Quote:

Originally posted by Markosef
maybe just one thing, flash 3 isnt in my opinion really needed as a compatibility factor, because those who dont know anything about flash,players,plugins and are plain computer users, are even less certain to have flash 3 then flash 5.

Well, I'm not stuck on Flash 3 in any way. My point is that if you've developed a Flash for whatever purpose and it is compatible with the Flash 3 player, then why not publish it as a Flash 3. More people are likely to be able to view it.

My website was done entirely in Flash 5 for a time. Although I did get a lot of people going to it, I had a lot of people who didn't have Flash 5 coming to it as well. My stats showed that if that when people would be directed to the page to download the Flash 5 player, most of them would just leave. They wouldn't even click to download the Flash 5 player.

What does this mean? Are they all idiots? Maybe they don't have time for the download. Maybe they are in a large corporation and are unable to install anything on their computer without the network administrator logged in.

For whatever reason, I lost a of potential visitors and jobs by trying to cram Flash 5 down my visitors' throats.

-scott
http://www.scottmanning.com/
03-25-2002, 02:49 PM
lesli_felix

I think people are far more used to downloading a plugin to view specific types of content, be it video, 3d, music, webapps, games, whatever..

But for an actual website, or just an interface, it's a big no-no.

It's enough to expect people to have a recent browser, let alone latest versions of all the plugins.

Flash 4 is about standard, now. And given that around 96% of browsers already have it, and all? versions of windows since 98 come with it, building a site that requires flash 4 isn't going to be a problem.

But we can't leave it to other developers to make people download the flash 6 player, or wait until microsoft bundle it with an operating system. It's something we should all be doing.

People will be put off by a site that insists they download software before entering, but once there, if they have to download a pluging to play a game, use an application, watch a movie, they'll usually comply. People understand the difference. You don't need the shockwave plugin to visit shockwave.com . You can visit, browse the games, and only have to download it if you want to play.

So start producing demo's, movies, apps in MX, and show them off to as many potential clients as possible, but don't use it for the main navbar of your site. That is all.
03-25-2002, 03:06 PM
snuifkip.com

playing with MX, great,
still offering version 4 & 5 / probably for the next 6-9 months // any idea about the penetrating of the MX player ?
i don't ...

:)

sven
03-25-2002, 03:11 PM
Markosef

lots of people just click around and dont know a lot about computers, so flash is just some strange or new word they here, the problem is that plugin has to be integrated into something that they dont even know about, so it is installed with windows, to bad flash 6 wasnt ready for XP, also they could waited with mx till the win mx SE release so they could fix bugs in this version, dont get why did they release it now, but ok i think they have thought it over
03-25-2002, 03:12 PM
asheep_uk

Quite a few of you have said that you are going to wait untill the industry on the net moves to Flash 6 and is ready for it. The only way that is going to happen, is to push it. Flash 6 downloads in about 30 seconds, and there is a simple way of doing it which only requires the user to press 'Yes' and its done.

The industry will not move to Flash 6 unless people use it, so I for one am going in, and using it in all my latest web sites. In fact one of my sites has Flash 5 and 6 in it as I switched over.

Just go for it, the indusry ain't budging unless we do something, just something to think about...

:)
03-25-2002, 07:05 PM
nocrapchurch

Quote:

Originally posted by asheep_uk
Quite a few of you have said that you are going to wait untill the industry on the net moves to Flash 6 and is ready for it. The only way that is going to happen, is to push it. Flash 6 downloads in about 30 seconds, and there is a simple way of doing it which only requires the user to press 'Yes' and its done.

The industry will not move to Flash 6 unless people use it, so I for one am going in, and using it in all my latest web sites. In fact one of my sites has Flash 5 and 6 in it as I switched over.

Just go for it, the indusry ain't budging unless we do something, just something to think about...

:)

I want to go into more detail about something I mentioned in my last post:

Big corporations are very slow to upgrade
If any of you have worked with large companies, then you know that they spend millions of dollars keeping an IT department running that will keep all their computers running.

Most companies are about two-three years behind in the latest technology. One company I recently did some work for just finally got everyone upgraded to Windows 2000. Windows XP isn't even a consideration for them at this point.

Why does it take so long for them to upgrade? Because it costs millions to do it.

Also, a lot of these companies have their employees using Windows 2000 or Windows NT. In most cases to install any type of software on a computer, the Network Administrator needs to be logged in. So what usually happens is nothing new is ever installed in the computer.

So what's the big deal about this?
The big deal is big corporations pay big money for design work. If they can't see your site, they don't have time to contact the Network Administrator just to see it. In most cases, that may not even be an option. They will move on and you will lose visitors/potential clients.

-scott
http://www.scottmanning.com/
03-25-2002, 07:08 PM
asheep_uk

I see your point. I know for a fact that the Royal Bank of Scotland have not upgraded, they are still runing Windows NT and M$ are forcing them to upgrade with a monthly subscription. So they and some other companies are sueing them.

Give it 6 months.

:)
03-25-2002, 07:26 PM
phonytony

i think it is a little hard to start comparing versions of operating systems to versions of browser plugins...

I have my MCSE in Windows 2000 and so think i am qualified to waffle on this area and M$ themselves have said that there is no point for people running Windows 2000 to upgrade to XP... ( or more appropiately, Teletubies Windows)

The companies have not been restricted in anyway what so ever in the past by staying on NT4, but most are now upgrading to 2000 as it has had enough time to prove itself satble enough for them to transfer... Plus M$ constant threat to withdraw NT4 (Which they are no longer doing by the way) and the benefits of it are clear to see.. You can not begin to compare the Flash plugin to the OS...

Yes big companies are behind in many areas of software, but that is also very often due to the cost of upgrading... but here we are talking about a free plugin, that the Sys Admin, if he had half an ounce of intelligence, could force them all to upgrade to, and implement it in a way that they would never notice.
03-25-2002, 07:28 PM
RazoRmedia

Its all about the types of sites, you can't stereotype a website into one category, think of the two extreme examples:

A Designers experimental site - using heavy scripting, clever maths and new FMX features makes people download the player, the majority of which will be other designers

compared to

A Large Corporate Website - needs to be accessible to as many people as possible, from the advanced omputer user running BEOS on a MAC to the newbie win 98 beginner with a dummies book, a modem and a cup of coffee balanced on the CD drive.

Its all about the audience, take that into consideration and there is your answer, you're all right!!!
03-25-2002, 08:41 PM
nocrapchurch

Quote:

Originally posted by phonytony
i think it is a little hard to start comparing versions of operating systems to versions of browser plugins...

You can not begin to compare the Flash plugin to the OS...

I'm not comparing OS to the Flash plugin. I'm saying that the companies are behind in all software: OS, plugins, etc.

Quote:

Originally posted by phonytony
but here we are talking about a free plugin, that the Sys Admin, if he had half an ounce of intelligence, could force them all to upgrade to, and implement it in a way that they would never notice.

That's some good thinking. Why don't you go and tell that to all the CEO's of the world. I'm sure they'll get right to making sure all employees have Flash MX installed.

So you're not disagreeing with me that these companies are behind the times and won't have Flash MX as soon as we'd like; you just don't like it. Am I right?

-scott
03-25-2002, 08:47 PM
lesli_felix

Quote:

Originally posted by RazoRmedia
.....a cup of coffee balanced on the CD drive.

Razormedia, that's no joke.

I spoke to somebody in IT support recently who had a customer complaining that their coffee-cup holder wasn't working anymore.

They didn't realise it was a CD player, and were using it to hold their beverages....
03-26-2002, 04:59 AM
RazoRmedia

Quote:

Originally posted by lesli_felix

Quote:

Originally posted by RazoRmedia
.....a cup of coffee balanced on the CD drive.

Razormedia, that's no joke.

I spoke to somebody in IT support recently who had a customer complaining that their coffee-cup holder wasn't working anymore.

They didn't realise it was a CD player, and were using it to hold their beverages....

haha,

one of my friends failed a module in University and had to resit a different one, it was 'Internet and Email Basics'. Being in the third year of a Computer Studies Degree, he found the topics covered quite straight forward, topics including 'sending an e-mail', 'finding a web page' and 'connecting to the web', ha ha. The other people on the course were not as experienced and some where actually moving their mouse about on the monitor.

needless to say he passed, his assignment deadline of 2 hours to send an email was done in seconds. Well done, ha ha
03-26-2002, 05:42 AM
asheep_uk

Did the mice have an optical sensor, because then that does work. I do it if I run out of space on my desk. :)

You may have recivied in e-mail the Coca-Cola present. It says "Merry Christmas - have a drink holder" you press OK and your CD drive pops out.

I will try and find it for you.

:)
03-26-2002, 05:04 PM
manny928

Push MX to achieve higher standards

I agree that if you can achieve something in flash 3, why publish it as flash 6, but another issue to keep in mind is standards.

It's okay when aren't publishing anything that requies the Flash 6 player, but what happens when you do need to use Flash 6? Now all those users who you dragged along without having them update their FP are still using an older version. Now they might be missing out.

One of our goals as flash developers is to help achieve higher standards and that means pushing new, better technology. This way, when you need to use Flash 6 for a project, you'll have the majority of the internet users capable of viewing your file.

Help bring everyone who's behind up to date. Fine, if they choose to stay behind them let them stay there. But most people don't even know they are behind in technology unless we let them know.

Well that's just my thoughts.
03-26-2002, 06:08 PM
Hellsbellboy

sure lets start pushing new technology, why don't we all start making webpages that totally strectch the limit of current bandwidths, lets makes flash pages that bring a P4 2.2 GHZ PC to it's knees. Screw all the people on 56k connections or on "slower" PCs.. they should all upgrade anyways.
03-26-2002, 06:56 PM
joelukey

This thread is great....

If Amazon and Ebay did enforce having the Flash plugin they would be pushing the envelope and perhaps open user's minds, and in fact not make them run for cover. I am talking about small animations of course, not the entire site. After all you want to draw more users back and giving them a taste of Flash might be a more inspiring experience than HTML. This in turn would allow other "little guys" not to be so cautious and push the web even further. After all, there are many uses for the web and the web that I envision is hardly one made up of static HTML.
03-26-2002, 06:59 PM
lesli_felix

Quote:

Originally posted by Hellsbellboy
sure lets start pushing new technology, why don't we all start making webpages that totally strectch the limit of current bandwidths, lets makes flash pages that bring a P4 2.2 GHZ PC to it's knees. Screw all the people on 56k connections or on "slower" PCs.. they should all upgrade anyways.

Are you comparing a FREE 300k download with a £1200 PC and a £300 per-year internet connection?

That's a ridiculous comparison.

We should cater for people with dial-up connections and slower PC's because upgrading is either impossible or prohibitively expensive.

But a piece of technology that costs nothing, and takes a minute to obtain is worth making use of.
03-26-2002, 07:05 PM
joelukey

pushing the envelope

If Amazon and Ebay did enforce having the Flash plugin they would be pushing the envelope and perhaps open user's minds not make them run for cover. I am talking about small animations of course, not the entire site. After all you want to draw more users back and giving them a taste of Flash might be a more inspiring experience than HTML. This in turn would allow other "little guys" not to be so cautious and push the web even further. After all, there are many uses for the web and the web that I envision is hardly one made up of static HTML.

Then again, who said, "now is the time to survive." Well, survival is nice but, sometimes boring.

By the way, I did download Flash 6, it is rather seamless, took about 4 seconds and I did not have to reboot, did not have to go to Macromedia.com, I did not even leave that browser. Now that is convienence!!!! I am going to push Flash 6, after all this is my life!
03-26-2002, 07:34 PM
lesli_felix

"Macromedia CEO Rob Burgess estimates there will be
100,000,000 Flash 6-enabled browsers within 30 days."

This is based on flash-5 downoads of 3,000,000 a day, when it was released.

Of course, Macromedia could be B.S.ing for their own benefit, but there's no harm in quoting them to a client. ;)

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