Saw this in SITE CHECK!!

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Originally posted by stevietat2
and plz. ripped not inspired? ripping is when you directly take someones artwork or file to use as your own. You could say this guy COPIED the layout style, but its no way a rip of 2ad. so get that straight:)

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You have got to be kidding me!!! This is such a typical amatuer designer attitude. If this was cococola.com, I can assure you we would be sueing them for copyright infringement, not becasue its not an exact replica (what you may be use to) but becasue it uses elements that are modified/ripped what ever you want to call it.
Many of you and I mean the majority of you simply DO NOT understand where the line is between:
- Being Inspired
- Copyright Infringement

With the infringing site in question, there is no point at all in having our lawyer involved becasue it belongs to a person, not a company, you waste so much time and money trying to sue the person for copying your work, the best you can do eventually is get the site removed.

But what really makes me mad at the majority of you is your lack of respect and incompetance to understand professional design work, especially at this board. The acceptance of this site as a site of its own is shameful and disrespectful to the designers that origianlly developed the style, elements etc...

A rip does not just mean you copy the entire site or the majority of its elements, but even when there is some elements, even one very very similar element, its is illegal by law. We cannot do anything to stop you, but this is not some russian warez board and I use to think that this kind of attitude was the "Newbie" attitude.

The idea of these boards, all of them, is to help design, programmers to encourage, help, motivate, critize all the things that help promote our industry. What I see all around is people accepting and promoting the attitude of being OK with taking some elements here and there, "this is not a rip, but its copied a bit"

Dont call your self a designer just becasue you can open flash.exe or photoshop.exe, as many of you do, your spamming our industry with crap!

David Martin
FI

this guy shows creativity. He just doesn't use it for his site design. The beginning is his but when you start seeing the sub navigation/preloaders identical to others it really shows it's a rip. Stand apart if you want to get noticed.

Perhaps you get me wrong> I said the layout has been copied. Did I say that is good? no. did I say we should promote that? no! did I say it is legal and it doesn't matter? not so much. What I did say is this guy has not ripped the site. The terms are often used interchangeably, but generally ripped means to actually "rip" data from someone else's file. Many people have done that to 2a (extracting images, sounds etc), and I felt that the distinction should be made in this person's defense. Ripping is illegal and copying to the degree you have stated is illegal too - and i don't condone that. Not at all. Simply because I didn't flame the guy doesn't mean I don't care.

perhaps you didn't understand that I applauded this person for his creative CONTENT. not his layout, not his sounds, but his artwork (spaceships, the fish, surreal landscapes) which as far as I know are his own material. That is original.

I stated my point about the very similar interface to 2a, but does that mean I should write off the site completely as awful and not to be discussed any further? If this is supposed to be a motivating helpful site as you believe, how is it helpful to simply say->its a rip>take it off before I sue. Thats not helpful. If you tell the person where they could improve, what they need to redo (whether if its copied or just bad), and what is good so they can keep it, that is helpful. I said in my previous comments I think the layout should be dropped because It doesn't go with the great content, and he should come up with something more creative along the lines of his bg animations.

Anways I think you need to calm down about this subject. (my final comment was just for fun, as denoted by the smilie, please don't take it too seriously.) As whatever differences in opinion two people can have, there is certainly no call for ANY derogative language against me and the "many other newbie/amatuers" on this board (which is a pretty hasty generalization/assumption). Everyone deserves respect, regardless of financial success, experience, age, etc. As you have pointed out, we want to promote a sense of good will and comradery in this community. We do not need any elitist attitudes, which I have already discovered in my own experiences, to be a problem that plagues much of our design community.

No ill feelings meant. Just wanted to clarify what I had stated earlier because I didn't want to leave you with the wrong impression that I am pro-copyright infringement.
Cheers:)

btw, one quick question as well> does fantasy interfaces now own copyrights to 2advanced material? or do you share lawyers with them, since you refer to "not wanting to involve your lawyers" with this infringing site. Just interested in whether you share the same legal department or something to that effect.

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Originally posted by stevietat2
What I did say is this guy has not ripped the site. The terms are often used interchangeably, but generally ripped means to actually "rip" data from someone else's file. Many people have done that to 2a (extracting images, sounds etc), and I felt that the distinction should be made in this person's defense. Ripping is illegal and copying to the degree you have stated is illegal too - and i don't condone that. Not at all. Simply because I didn't flame the guy doesn't mean I don't care.

perhaps you didn't understand that I applauded this person for his creative CONTENT. not his layout, not his sounds, but his artwork (spaceships, the fish, surreal landscapes) which as far as I know are his own material. That is original.

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Stevietat2 - You are simply playing off of symantics here. fine it is not a RIP (where assets were taken..and screenshots used)...but it is definitely MORE than inspired. Do we as a community need to come up with a better word selection for you on this one? How about "Cheap Imitiation". The point David is trying to make is that stuff like this Should NOT be tolerated in ANY fashion by members of the design/flash community. MANY times the newer people on the scene say.."oh..it looks like this..its inspired..but its a good job though" I am sorry but I have to agree that comments like that are the WORST you can make. All it does is legitimize the fact that someone has taken the time...sat there and looked at something long enough..and that is all they could come up with is an imitiation and get praised for it. I can't believe that people would even praise this.

Why do you think sites like this spring up? Simply because everyone goes..OH wow..that looks cool. I mean its only "inspired" but wow johnny..you did such a nice job on that. Then...every other newbie reads that..and goes.."wow..I want to get some people praising me too. Lets go copy a site I like".

EVERYONE has been inspired by other people's work. EVERYONE has tried to imitiate the techniques of someone else in order to LEARN how to do it. The problem is, experiments like that..should be LEFT ON YOUR COMPUTER and should never see the light of day.

The fact that a site like this even gets praised by ANYONE is amazing to me and shows the general lack of professionalism which has plagued Flashkit since I first heard about Flashkit many years ago. Its like someone getting congratulated for putting together a puzzle you bought... I mean all you had to do was stare at it long enough and put the pieces together..all the hard work was already done for you by someone else as far as the motion and stuff.

David's point is 100% correct here. Just because some of you people can open up Photoshop, and Just because you can open up flash, Just because you can copy something. DOES NOT make you a designer. Just because I work at 2A does not make me a Legitimate designer either. When compared to people who have been art majors..or photography majors and are trained, 95% of my work is below average in my opinion. That is because I'm critical and I can see the flaws. There are fine art majors, photographers, print artists & people who have been doing ART & DESIGN for 3x as long as I have and they scoff at rubish like this stuff. Design is a thought process...a way of life. not just something you pick up. Its like the difference between being a "Guitarist" and someone who just "Plays the Guitar".

Do you people understand that this is why the Flash Realm & Web Multimedia realm is so overly criticized by people who are REALLY educated in Design & Art? IT IS because of the attitudes of some of the people on this board that lend to that. When sites like this springs up and are praised... all that is happening is that the Flash design community & especially this message board is going to the Trash. Its like the White trash Ghetto of Design. And until some in roads are made where people start branching out..and really pushing work. Flash will remain just a fun way of moving vectors around on your computer. When sites like this are praised..it makes a mockery of the REALLY good work that is being done out there...and THAT is a shame.

Now...were there some minor cool parts of the site? Yes..there were 2 small things done WELL..but that does not help out the fact that this site should not exist as it is.

I've rambled too long..hopefully that made a tiny amount of sense....hopefully I didn't come across as a complete jerk. I wouldnt' have even commented on THIS particular site if David (FI) Hadn't made some comments that I think are VERY IMPORTANT for all of the newbies out there, and people who want to make Design a profession, not just people who see some flashy stuff and want to learn how to do it as a hobbie.

heh, i like the quality of the people posting here, but the quantity is just to much, though i do like ur essay rants, its a bit much for something that i think weve all heard enough of, 2A rips. *changing subject* btw, i cant wait for FI-revolution, any date as to when it is going to be released?

~ Äurora

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It's kind of a shame. It's a nice site. Too bad the designer couldn't break away from the 2a and fill the rest of the site out using his creativity.

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well since the gloves are off i guess i'll say what i wanted to instead of they above (trying to be polite the first time)

As far as i'm concerned. The site has some nice elements but for the most part it's a cheap knock off of better work.

To Shane: well said

To stevietat2: It's a rip, stop defending the guy.

To the FK mods: Shane is 100% right. If things like this are allowed to be posted and given the undue attention that they are getting. This board is going to go to ****. Then what do we have. With the peolpe like shane, the FI members, Nevil from Theory 7 & and the rest of the really great designers gone. We are left with knobs like the one in the link posted below. 400,000 + members all acting like 4 year olds and doing nothing to further our community. Ultra Shock it is i guess.

I would also like everyone to take a look at this thread. This seems to be the general attitude of the young designers. It's things liek this taht are going to do the most damage to this board and the community in general.

http://www.flashkit.com/board/showth...hreadid=424803

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Taking an image from 2a has NOTHING (!!!)

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This is originally quoted from Grave digger in the thread above.

Here is my input on the subject:


I believe people
need to overcome their over inspirations and
use that to become more creative.

Ok, So you liked how the portfolio sections of 2A
look?
shouldn't your goal be to make it look better and not the same or very similar?

What exactly are you trying to accomplish by creating something that has already been done. If you have the skills to create graphics and animate them why not try something different.

This will probably sound wrong for some of you, but I think people need to lay off the message boards for some time and go design more.

Chat less, work HARDER and create something, it will make you and everyone else happier.


Dash
flashlevel

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Originally posted by pixelranger
I can't believe that people would even praise this.

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Now...were there some minor cool parts of the site? Yes..there were 2 small things done WELL.

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if your gonna make a bold statement like you did, try not to contradict yourself, it threw me off.

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Originally posted by FLASHLEVEL
Here is my input on the subject:


I believe people
need to overcome their over inspirations and
use that to become more creative.

Ok, So you liked how the portfolio sections of 2A
look?
shouldn't your goal be to make it look better and not the same or very similar?

What exactly are you trying to accomplish by creating something that has already been done. If you have the skills to create graphics and animate them why not try something different.

This will probably sound wrong for some of you, but I think people need to lay off the message boards for some time and go design more.

Chat less, work HARDER and create something, it will make you and everyone else happier.


Dash
flashlevel

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http://www.linotravel.com ? (2A inspired, no?)
http://www.flashlevel.com ? (FI inspired, no?)

Absolutely awesome websites, but obviously you were inspired by these two companies.

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Originally posted by gdstudios
http://www.linotravel.com ? (2A inspired, no?)
http://www.flashlevel.com ? (FI inspired, no?)

Absolutely awesome websites, but obviously you were inspired by these two companies.

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lol :eek:

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Originally posted by gdstudios
http://www.linotravel.com ? (2A inspired, no?)
http://www.flashlevel.com ? (FI inspired, no?)

Absolutely awesome websites, but obviously you were inspired by these two companies.

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Not really. Is really unfortunate in my part that I have unfinished(unreleased) material to further prove my point.

At least Shane has seen it, I'm sure he could tell you how that comparison for both my past and new work is way off or just plain ridiculous to be more precise.


Dash
flashlevel

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Originally posted by kony2003
if your gonna make a bold statement like you did, try not to contradict yourself, it threw me off.

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Kony..i'm sorry..but quit acting like the kid in the corner pointing his finger.

There were minor parts of the site done well... those were on internal pieces/animations and the only parts of the site that were somewhat original. To be more specific..the little particles in the space scene & the thing on the right in the portfolio section. Everything else ...is what I was commenting on. and you know that.

Its not a contradiction.

its almost like the guy took 2a expansions.. and skinned the bloody thing!

It's already been accepted above that semanically this isn't a 'rip' the issues go deeper than that to what people seem to consider good design by good designers on the web. Rip is the wrong word for it, but I think the point is that here there is an opportunity to talk to top class designers about what makes a designer. If I were you I'd get off this site and widen the discussion.

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Originally posted by Deviant Mind
To the FK mods: Shane is 100% right. If things like this are allowed to be posted and given the undue attention that they are getting. This board is going to go to ****. Then what do we have. With the peolpe like shane, the FI members, Nevil from Theory 7 & and the rest of the really great designers gone. We are left with knobs like the one in the link posted below. 400,000 + members all acting like 4 year olds and doing nothing to further our community. Ultra Shock it is i guess.

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while I agree with much of what shane and david have said here I am here to moderate, not censor. I'm not going to go through the forum closing and deleting threads that link to sites I think are examples of bad design, that's obviously out of the question, much as I would like to sometimes :)

the idea of this forum is that people post what they think is cool, and then we, in a hopefully constructive manner, comment on the site, as people are doing here. I would rather read the comments in this thread now than have closed it yesterday.

the members of these forums decide on the content, that's the whole point, part of the function is for some to influence others and for everyone as a whole to benefit from the experience. I will close and delete threads that simply don't belong here because they break the rules, but if, as in this case, someone posts something they think is cool and then a lot of people agree with them, then you get comments from guys like shane and david then I think it's a great opportunity for people to sit up and take notice.

there are very few professional web designers who really understand web design in my opinion. Flash especially is the bastion of bad design in so many ways, don't get me wrong there are good designers working with flash and the web, but in general web designers are the most uneducated designers of all. There is such easy accessibility for people wanting to design for the web, and crucially such easy accessibility for others to the work of anyone with an FTP program, that it's no wonder thw web design field is so badly thought of by professional designers.

In other industries we trend to only be familiar with the cream of the talented, in print design for example the art director of raygun magazine had a much greater exposure to the design community than the guy who designs bad flyers with a copy of quark. In web it's different, those two designers potentially have the same exposure. Yes we recognise some industry figures by common consensus as being 'stars' of the community, but below that I think it's very hard for the developing designer to really understand what good design is when they are presented with a daily barrage of things that they might think look cool when they really might just be catching the afterglow of a different provenence.

I'm not a good designer, I don't really design websites but applications, and while I know my limitations I also understand that design is as much about education as it is about raw talent and intuition. It's a long road. I try to absorb as much as I can about topics that I think a lot of other people wanting to be designers ignore, things like usability - which sounds like such an ugly word and it's soemthing that I think 95% of web designers completely ignore, but like so many other things in this world, there is nothing about learning things like this, learnign about user psychology, pattern recognition etc etc, that need restrict your creativity.

The idea of being a developing designer to me is to absorb as much as I can about the field and use what I know to interpret the world that I experience and through that develop better designs. It's all about having the most tools at your disposal, you don't always use all those tools, and you don't always use those tools exactly as they were intended.

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Originally posted by FLASHLEVEL
Not really. Is really unfortunate in my part that I have unfinished(unreleased) material to further prove my point.

At least Shane has seen it, I'm sure he could tell you how that comparison for both my past and new work is way off or just plain ridiculous to be more precise.


Dash
flashlevel

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i vouce (i can't spell) for flashlevel

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Originally posted by aversion
The idea of being a developing designer to me is to absorb as much as I can about the field and use what I know to interpret the world that I experience and through that develop better designs. It's all about having the most tools at your disposal, you don't always use all those tools, and you don't always use those tools exactly as they were intended.

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Well said, and quite moderate as usual.

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Originally posted by gdstudios
Well said, and quite moderate as usual.

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maybe, but I think to a lot of web 'designers' the idea of reading an article on design usability, for example, would be extremely radical!

nowhere did i say i think he was inspired-i said he copied the layout. as well, i said we should tell him what is good (theme) and bad (copied layout/nav). i didn't say we should praise him and "kind of ignore" the copying as you seem to think i have. tell him what to keep, what not to. would it not be better to tell him how to fix this problem (make a new layout) rather than get all high horsed and tell him to walk away in shame? im not DEFENDING copying (as someone earlier seems to think i am), im saying we should help, not hate. Post if you want to help, not to bash the guy.

anways, this is just going into a "what is considered inspiration and whats copying" argument, and weve already been there on this board (many, many times). then we'll get into the whole thing about 2a actually being a bit biter himself, of people like gmunk and stuff. Really, if you're getting all panicked about some small site like this that has a 2a layout, calm down and don't take yourself so seriously. I think that can be the biggest designer's flaw:)

But i'll give you props pixelranger for coming into this with some humility and respect for everyone.

well yeah, thats it for my two cents. I'll take that ealier advice and go do something else. Then i'll be happier:):)haha
Cheers.

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Originally posted by aversion
maybe, but I think to a lot of web 'designers' the idea of reading an article on design usability, for example, would be extremely radical!

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You know Av, I think you are exactly right. Honestly, I would have to agree that the average web designer is not at all informed about these types of crucial issues. I have been discussing this thread with Shane privately and he has convinced me that listlessness of young designers has become a problem in our field. I wonder what can be done to reverse the trend.

very well said AVersion as usual, on point. :)