Game development is tough

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

in reply to pretty much everything tomsamson said.



because they are free!, or close to free!, whether they be high quality flash games, or low, if something is free on the net, people will be more willing to play it or download it.
That is why Flash games are played by so many people. It does not mean that people love Flash games, it just means that people like a free game! (regardless of quality usually).

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erm,first i stated the difference between games which are played a lot for a short while because they are good for a coffee break or there´s a lot of media hype around them and the really good games beeing played a lot for a long while.
I didn´t speak about the point if either of those is free for the player.
quality games can be played for free by the player just like crap games can cost money via download or the other way round.
Yeah,people like free games but many people like quality games more than crap games.
And if you think people only like flash games that are free,no matter if they are good or not,tell me why there are so many of heli3 fans (fansites,comic contests and what not all) and then for crap games there´s not such a fanbase normally (even if they are free for the player,too).Obviously quality makes a difference if hype/promo for products is equal.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

Also regarding the portals, I suspect they make all their money through advertising on the site, not from any money directly derived from the games themselves. Make people pay to play those Flash games, and watch those millions of hits to those sites drop to about 10!.

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Gaming portals make their money in several ways,yup,advertising is just one of them. They also have games for download (for a fee),some have memberships for a fee and others also offer games played by paying real money fees per play (for example casino games).
Sure a game that is totally free for the player is normally played more often than one which costs the player money. Still you shouldn´t underestimate the amount of people who actually really buy download games;on some high profile sites they make tons of money with that business sheme.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

If anything if a portal is making a tonne of money from advertising because its getting millions of hits per month, then shouldn't the developers get a percentage of that ad money?

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yeah,now you nailed it. Developers should either ask for more money for their one time licensing return or ask for a percentage on returns the game site gets with the game (though the later is hard to proove and to negotiate on as you´d have to negotiate on possible future returns).
The problem on that point is that many game developers underestimate/don´t think about the amount of money a high profile game portal makes with their game if its played a lot for a long while.
That´s one of the reasons i support mochibot so heavily;it shows the developers,just like the clients how much your game returns in traffic.
Think about the amount a site gets per view of a banner,multiply that with the amount of views your game got and you´ll see how rich you could have gotten with one high quality/often played game if you got a split per play or a serious amount for the licence.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

Flash game developers are not going to make as much as offline developers (when competing against offline games) until Flash games look like the latest offline games. Its as simple as that. Why would the public want to pay to play a Flash game that looks like a 15 year old console game?!? and even if they want to play a game like that, they will probably want to do it on their portable device (psp, sp, ds etc etc), not on their desktop.

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There´s surely a serious amount of players who think like you. But there´s at least an equally huge amount of players who play more web games than the play console games. (Either because they are in ages or at places where its not that ideal to play console games or they just don´t feel comfortable with the current console generation´s games or aren´t into getting hardware to enjoy software or maybe the basic fact that they charge gameplay and fun as more important than graphics/presentation).
There´s a serious amount of people who enjoy puzzle games or games in the retro feel of old console games or just not brutal games with realistic violence displayed as in the current console gen.
Next you´d wonder how many people loved the 2d era´s console games but simply don´t like playing 3d 1st person view games or generally 3d games.
Next,did you know that in xbox arcade there are several games which started out as web games and now have high download/sell rates via the xbox arcade?

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

So I don't think its a case of developers selling themselves "low", I think if Flash game developers started expecting 20k for a game, it would just kill the Flash game market dead, and the portals would find something else for "free" to give away to the public.

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erm,any reason for what you throw up into the air?
If the development (not even talking about profits here) of a high quality flash game costs 20k (for example),a game portal pays that amount (which is still ridiculously low compared to what it will probably earn with the game),then the game gets played by 200 million people in a year,gets a massive fanbase of returning players also passing the portal´s link on and making it more known,for whom is that bad?
Sure,crap games should be buyable for lower than high quality games where the production time alone is reason enough for the cost,but well,it would actually be a good thing for the reputation of web games if there were fewer games but in return the existing ones had higher quality in average.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

yup extactly, thats the point I was making above, except that I think Flash 8, is fine for making games, as3 is just if you want to make 3D stuff.

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sure one can create certain game types nicely in flash8. still you´ll have difficulties in creating smooth running games which involve a lot of code execution per frame refresh. With as3 and the new vm the overall code execution speed is massively improved,so games with heavy code chunks per frame refresh (for example things where you have lots of physics simulations or pathfinding) will profit a lot from the heavily improved code execution.
Still it won´t be the ideal plattform for 3d games even then ,so i was speaking about 2d stuff.

And what about flash games like dofus or tatics arena online?
Multiplayer flash games that people are paying to play?Would that give some return to developers?

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Originally Posted by Incrue

And what about flash games like dofus or tatics arena online?
Multiplayer flash games that people are paying to play?Would that give some return to developers?

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sure it would if it works out and in some rare cases it does.
But that´s also the reason why i didn´t talk about multiplayer games specifically. Its because it takes even more dedication,knowledge,time and effort to create a solid multiplayer experience than a single player game.
Next to the additionally required multiplayer side frontend/backend knowledge,its normally also more difficult to market those games to clients like gaming portals,because of the ongoing heavier server and maintenance costs and maybe not having pure own control on the licenced content and instead having to rely on the developers for a long while.
A few games on gaming portals like runescape show that its possible and if done well can lead to even way higher returns than for single player games (runescape was ranked 1st/most played game on gaming sites for ages)
but yeah,developing something in that or higher quality takes a lot as i said and even then isn´t a sure bet at all.
You could go the way to host the game yourself instead of licencing it to a game portal but that involves even more required knowledge on the backend side next to a high ongoing investment for the timespan till the membership rates pay off and during that you have to make promo for getting your site known and also pay for servers and other things.

Jee

Long time haven't read such a interesting and intense DISC thread.
Cool.

So here's my contribution: some music.

I just change some "not for here" words, replace the main subject (who was hip hop music) by "flash games" and cut it short, but I guess you'll get the point.

[From Immortal Technique - Revolutionary Volume 2 - "The Message and the Money"]

Before we go any further..
I would like to send a message to all the underground Flash Game Devlopers out there, working hard.
The time has come to realize you networked in a market and stop being a "sad" commodity
And if you didn't understand what I've just said then you already waiting to get "into trouble"
For example; a lot of these promoters are doing showcases
throwing events, and not even paying the workhorses
They trying get us to rock for the love of Flash for the exposure
Now look man, I don't mind doing a guest spot for my peeps
Or, or, or doing a benefit show, but don't lie to me
Coz I find out I'm paying your lightbill.
Besides, you ain't doing this for the love, you ain't doing it for the exposure
you charging up to 10$ at the door, and you ain't tryin to give me "something"???
So wait a minute... you want me to go shopping, cook the food, and put it in front of you
but you won't let me sit down and eat with you? "What" is that?
"Lads" need to start playing their position, man. Just coz you throw a party
a hosting event or an "Flash Games" showcase, or a battle that don't make you important at all
Without me and everybody like me out there you ain't nutting but a good idea, "man"
So stay in your place.

And to all these "guys" who are too lazy to come up with a way to sell "Flash games"..
That they keep recycling marketing schemes and imagery
C'mon..
There is a market for everything man
There is a market for pet psychologists "man". There is a market for twisted
"deviant" video's. For nipplerings, for riverdancing, for chocolate cupboard roaches..
But you can't find one for "Flash Games"?
People like you: the house "people" executives
and them rich "guys" that own you; you the "sad" machine man!
[...]
But I refuse the feed the machine
And Im not giving any "portal"money
So maybe my "game" won't get 5 "stars"
Whatever man, "too bad"
But then again; you don't own me, and none of you "guys" ever will
If I'm feeling what you fight for I'm rolling with you to the end
But if not, then "boo"!
And the more that "Flash Devlopers giving their stuff for cheap", producers, dj's
and independent labels start to grasp the conceptuality of what their contribution to the business of "Flash" is
rather then just "game" - the more the industry will be forced to change

Wow, very interesting indeed even though it sort of went off topic, but me like.

I think that as the console market gets entrenched in 3D gaming, many new comers to the gaming market are gonna avoid video games. Just the whole complexity of moving around in a 3D world with a control with like 12 buttons is scary enough for non gamers.

Instead, people wanting to get a taste of the gaming experience will look towards Flash web games. Their simplicity and wide variety will attract these people. I believe that the web will be the next platform for high-quality Flash games with SNES/GBA like graphics. I mean, if consoles (and inevitably handhelds such as DS and PSP) are moving towards 3D experiences, then Flash developers are our only hope of keeping 2D gaming alive.

Who knows, we'll probably see very successful flash games in the future, sharing the same depht as classic SNES titles, Castlevania, etc. But of course, amateur/crappy games will always persist as long as there's an internet.

IMO, the future looks $GREAT$ for Flash developers. More people online, means more revenue. Flash developers are gonna have to create high quality games (yet simple to develop) to stand out among the crappy games, and that will be key to their financial success.

in reply to tomsamson:

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re: multiplayer: sure it would if it works out and in some rare cases it does....

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Yes, I agree with all that, I just wish macromedia/adobe would make developing multiplayer games easier as thats got be an area which is rich in potential.

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Next,did you know that in xbox arcade there are several games which started out as web games and now have high download/sell rates via the xbox arcade?

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yes I did :), the 360 has some great downloadable retro style games (although with vastly enhanced visuals) and I've heard that they are very popular as well, but look at the medium they are on? the 360, so wrongly or rightly the public perceive them as next gen, and as far as I know they are "free". If they thought they could make £39.99 for those games i'm sure they would charge that for download.

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Obviously quality makes a difference if hype/promo for products is equal.

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yes but thats the point, when is it equal? it hardly ever is unfortunately.

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There´s surely a serious amount of players who think like you. But there´s at least an equally huge amount of players who play more web games than the play console games

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Ok, lets be straight about what we're talking about here. What we are talking about here is making money from these Flash games. My point is Flash games are never going to be able to directly compete with the latest console games, because of whats possible with the consoles and whats not possible with Flash. I understand what you are saying, that Flash games have a audience all to themselves, but I don't think that audience (no matter how big it is) would be willing to pay the same as they might for a x-box game. And hence the difference in money put into development. Thats not to say that its not possible to get good development money for Flash games, I think it is, but the games would have to be of very high quality, and would probably require a team (2/3 on graphics, 1/2 on programming, 1 on sound). And right now there aren't really any games that are of that high quality. For example people talk about how good heli3 is, but is it better then say Yoshi's island? (over 10 years old) and if not, why not? because its certainly possible to create something as good as that in Flash. Flash games do not exist in a vaccum, especially not when people want money for them. They are competing against java games, C++ games, hand held games, etc etc.

I think once you see games of that quality of say yoshi's island (even though they would be out dated) I think it will be possible to get people to pay for them, and therefore there would be money for development. I must admit I'm continually dissapointed by the quality of Flash games (and I'm talking about proffessional quality ones), as I see no reason why they can't be as good as anything that was produced up to about 7 years ago. File size is no excuse anymore as well with broadband being pretty common.

I also think it is possible for people to make lots of loot from Flash games, but just not in directly competing against offline games. I think what I touched on before i.e money from ad revenue would be one path that decent returns would be possible. And in that sense I think the current Flash games market is setup badly for Flash games developers.

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sure one can create certain game types nicely in flash8. still you´ll have difficulties in creating smooth running games which involve a lot of code execution per frame refresh

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I know you know your stuff when it comes to Flash development, but i've created fast moving smooth Flash games before, and this idea of a "smooth running game" is a holy grail that has been sought ever since games started. Do you think all games on the commodore 64, snes, amiga ran at 60 fps? no they did not, but lots of them were still a huge success (I'm not talking about hyped games here either). So even though a game should not chug along, it doesn't have to be super smooth for it to be successful. And there are lots of ways to cheat when it comes to creating 2D games, to save frame time. Also Flash (especially with v8) can do some amazing 2D effects for no frame time whatsoever, that were very difficult to create all those years ago in the original retro games.

I agree with the sentiment behind what you are saying, that Flash games developers should get paid more for their hard work and time, yes they should, but thats not living in the real world. In the real world games portals want games for as little as possible from developers, and the majority of the games online playing public will not pay a lot for online games. But they do reach a large number of people hence why I keep going on about taking a slice of the ad revenue. But this really is a chicken and an egg situation, what comes first? super high quality Flash games which brings in more development money, or lots of money to MAKE those super high quality Flash games?

thanks Tonypa and TheHelmsman for those links to professionaly made games. My judgement has been swayed slightly. It seems there's quite a hefty discussion going on around here.

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Andross88 I believe that the web will be the next platform for high-quality Flash games with SNES/GBA like graphics. I mean, if consoles (and inevitably handhelds such as DS and PSP) are moving towards 3D experiences, then Flash developers are our only hope of keeping 2D gaming alive.

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I think flash has gone way beyond that, it all comes down to the developer, whether he or she wants to put in that much work. I know tomsamson has listed reasons why game developers would do such a thing, and i agree with most of them. I don't think however that flash has to keep 2D gaming alive. I think its because no one is really that confident in creating a 3D game in flash.

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heli attack had that many plays because it was FREE!, make it £39.99 and see how many plays it gets

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So true. I'd like to know people's opinions on charging for flash games. How can developers confince people that their games are worth money. Personally if they have trouble doing this, I think its the Internet's fault. Its hard to stand out from the crowd. I like to think of it as the minority of game sites come close to EBGAMES while most game sites resemble some dodgy Sunday market deal. I think flash is never going to change from its current situation, some people think that's bad others think its good. For me it depends on where you're looking at flash, web development is sky rocketing, i think Flash will surely take over half the Internet in this department in the near future. Flash gaming... ?

quote away people

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Originally Posted by mr_malee

thanks Tonypa and TheHelmsman for those links to professionaly made games. My judgement has been swayed slightly. It seems there's quite a hefty discussion going on around here.

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No problem, you're welcome anytime :)
Hope you enjoy them.
There are some games in the list with extremely good story but there are small amount of people know about them ("The stone of Anamara" for example) :)

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Originally Posted by artlink

For example; a lot of these promoters are doing showcases
throwing events, and not even paying the workhorses

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Promoters are bad :) definitely!!!!

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

In the real world games portals want games for as little as possible from developers, and the majority of the games online playing public will not pay a lot for online games. But they do reach a large number of people hence why I keep going on about taking a slice of the ad revenue.

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What do you think is better for game portal owner: one game like "HA3" or ten games looks like **** ???? Big question..... :)

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

My point is Flash games are never going to be able to directly compete with the latest console games, because of whats possible with the consoles and whats not possible with Flash. I understand what you are saying, that Flash games have a audience all to themselves, but I don't think that audience (no matter how big it is) would be willing to pay the same as they might for a x-box game.

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Originally Posted by mr_malee

I don't think however that flash has to keep 2D gaming alive. I think its because no one is really that confident in creating a 3D game in flash.

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Well, all consoles have always been made for teenage boys. All the console games are made for teenage boys. That is very-very little target group and not even the wealthiest one. With consoles getting more difficult to control and games getting bigger and demanding everexpanding learning curve and games being targeted to only 1 group its unlikely the consoles will gain more players. To make Flash game for console players is pointless.

Biggest players group playing online games are 30+ women. They usually never played games before and so they dont need fancy 3D graphics with blood spitting on every corner. They also have much more money to spend on the games, if they really like the game then 20-40$ is not a problem for them. But they also value their time, they usually do not have 6-12 hours every day to play, perhaps 15-30 minutes is how much they can spend. This means the game can not be overcomplicated, must be easy to pick up and must allow short playtimes. Flash can do that. Flash is perfect for that :)

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Well, all consoles have always been made for teenage boys. All the console games are made for teenage boys. That is very-very little target group and not even the wealthiest one.

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they are? well I wish I was a teenage boy, but unfortunately i'm not, i'm in my early 30s. My mother who is in her mid 50s got into tombraider on the ps1 (a difficult game to control at the best of times!), my fiance'e regularly plays x-box games with me (burnout revenge, call of duty 2, halo etc....when I get stuck she does the difficult bits). This idea that women aren't into killing zombies or racing around race tracks is a bit of a false one I believe, but yes obviously males make up the majority of the offline games buying public. The x-box and ps2 are made for people from 16 - 25 precisely because of what you hinted at, who has the most spare cash to spend, and that would be people in their early 20s. Which is what the x-box and ps2 are very squarely aimed at, and is not a small group but a very large one. The exception to this is the cube, which has always been positioned at a younger audience.

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With consoles getting more difficult to control..

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modern day joypads certainly have lots of buttons for lots of reasons, but I can't say I have any problem controlling most console games. But aren't most online flash games keyboard controlled? wouldn't that be harder to control then using a joypad?

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..and games getting bigger and demanding everexpanding learning curve and games being targeted to only 1 group its unlikely the consoles will gain more players. To make Flash game for console players is pointless.

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of course they are going to gain more players! thats the direction everything is going in, especially now they all are going online, which means people can play against each other from all over the world, but i'm not saying that all console games are great, of course not theres lots of crap out there, I'm just talking from what can be achieved technically point of view, which unfortunately is usually the guide which drives people out to buy games for their consoles (and also which drives the pc graphics card market), we're all moving towards photorealism and complete freedom of movement and action, playing against thousands of people all over the world in console games. So you are right in a sense, trying to make a Flash game that does all that is pointless.

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Biggest players group playing online games are 30+ women. They usually never played games before and so they dont need fancy 3D graphics with blood spitting on every corner. They also have much more money to spend on the games, if they really like the game then 20-40$ is not a problem for them. But they also value their time, they usually do not have 6-12 hours every day to play, perhaps 15-30 minutes is how much they can spend. This means the game can not be overcomplicated, must be easy to pick up and must allow short playtimes. Flash can do that. Flash is perfect for that

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So you're saying theres no point doing a "real" flash game? say something comparable to mario world etc? If thats what you are saying I dissagree, I think Flash is capable of those kinds of games, and I think if developers did those kinds of games, they would stand out from the rest, and would allow for much greater amounts of development money to be spent on Flash games in the future.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

So you're saying theres no point doing a "real" flash game? say something comparable to mario world etc? If thats what you are saying I dissagree, I think Flash is capable of those kinds of games, and I think if developers did those kinds of games, they would stand out from the rest, and would allow for much greater amounts of development money to be spent on Flash games in the future.

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In this day and age, a game like super mario would wouldn't stand out as something impressive. In competition with other flash games, it would be a standing acheivement, but against games made on consoles or other development platforms it would be considered mediocre at best. And gamers are going to compare games to other games regardless of the platform. And can you honestly belive, even with a large team working on it, flash is capable of producing games of such graphical and control finesse that people would look to them as being on the same level as those made with C++ or some other high level language or development platform? In it's current form, flash is too cpu taxing to match the graphical/gameplay capabilities, and too limited to match the control and abilites that other computer games posess.

But that only means that we must attempt these types of endeavours and give them public attention. Right now flash is capable of doing great enough things to at least grab the attention of those who thirst for complex and engaging games. If more games of that type developed in flash arise in high numbers, then flash will be looked at as a development platform used for making those types of games. And if flash is looked at in that kind of light, future versions will be geared towards that type of development. Features such as Gamepad/Joystick input and Graphics Card support may become a reality, or even including components to make game development easier and tools to make development of psuedo-3d environments simpler and less labor intensive (although not turning flash into a full 3d development tool since it would no longer be flash)

Heh, I don't agree with your stance on the superiority of complex gaming. I belive that the nature of games that require steep learning curves and intricate control systems is alienating and makes the expansion of the industry slower instead of faster. And it is only through simple games that can be played by those with low attention spans can gamers even go deep enough to desire those complex and engaging games we love. (personally, I love both very much. I see the simple games as those to test and introduce new ideas to gaming, and the complex games as a refinement and utilization of those ideas) But that doesn't mean flash is worse off if its developers attempt such things and such talk should be discouraged. Complex and graphic/development intensive games coming from flash won't take away from its sucess as a development engine for quick to learn and quick to play games. Flash should open itself up to the development of complex and engaging games that appeal to gamers not normally familiar with flash developed games, just like how consoles should open themselves up to the development of simple, easy to learn games that appeal to groups outside of their current target market. I believe gaming should bring people together, so I am not a fan of the beleif that a development platform should be restricted to one particular type of game, and vica-versa.

Although idle talk won't get things changing. I've been waiting for serious attempts at long and engaging games made in flash. While there have been a few already listed, the best I've seen are tech demos or regular demos at most. What I've seen of those show flash is capable of greater things than what is already out there, but it's just not being done! Of course it would involve collaboration, and that is the key to getting it to work. More flash developers need to reach out to other developers and look to make large scale independant works. Games of grand scale can only be accomplished with the work of many talented people. (unless it's a really talented person with enough dedication to work on the same thing for years on end... But by that time, I'm sure his finished product would be obsolete upon completion) Don't want to sound condescending because it's obvious you all already know that, but I would think more team projects and fewer one man projects would be out there if that's the case. Maybe the additude towards flash really is at fault.

Anyways, I certainly hope someone out there with the capability pulls something significant off before I know enough about flash to have that capability myself, because the more time flash spends making significant simple games and insiginificant tech demos of could be complex and engaging games, the more powerful and demanding those games will become. Meaning the image of Flash as a developer of serious games will only grow more faint.

Although if someone has an idea for spreading this message that doesn't involve years of actionscript experience, then deal it out, because I'm more than willing to help.

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

Due to this time i can remember only one game where the 3D graphics was the same quality as a story. It was Max Payne II.

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I think lil' Finland loves You now - atleast - as much we love Conan OBrien :hug:

IMHO The big names produce only playable graphic-engines to make the profit. Id-software's engines been used a lot in last 10 years.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

So you're saying theres no point doing a "real" flash game?

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Depends what kind of game you are taking as "real game". Trying to make Final Fantasy XII with Flash is not good idea, not only has Flash no abilities to show all the 3D graphics, but filesize would also be too big to be played online. Then again if you would think Bejeweled or Zuma, then those games are very much possible with Flash.

Flash is not really game development platform, games can be made, but that is only one use (and not important one for late Macromedia). Animations, videos, applications, websites and all kind of strange things are made with Flash and so it has to provide tools for everyone.

Flash is very good at making small filesize online games which can be played in almost every computer in the world. If you want to make console game you would use some sort of console game tools, not Flash. If you want to make downloadable PC game, then you could use Flash, but its not best tool for that, even Director suits better. Want to make MMORPG, again you could use Flash for frontend (Dofus) but you need to consider the security and perfomance limitations it has.

Successful games use the natural strengths of the platform and dont try to be something else. If too much time is spent on the groovy looking game engine then too little time is left for the content. And without the content there is no game.

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Originally Posted by tonypa

Flash is not really game development platform, games can be made, but that is only one use (and not important one for late Macromedia). Animations, videos, applications, websites and all kind of strange things are made with Flash and so it has to provide tools for everyone.

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Do you think that "Visual Studio" is best suited for game development needs? As far as I know there are no programming language that was designed to make games. The reason why most developers used C++ is only because of performance. And to be honest, the computers itself weren't created to play games :) so far the programming languages not. :)

I don't see any reason why big Flash game cannot be made.

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Originally Posted by TeroLebe

I think lil' Finland loves You now - atleast - as much we love Conan OBrien

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That's not only my opinion, it was also written on a gamebox :)

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Originally Posted by Evil_Demon_Creature

While there have been a few already listed, the best I've seen are tech demos or regular demos at most. What I've seen of those show flash is capable of greater things than what is already out there, but it's just not being done! Of course it would involve collaboration, and that is the key to getting it to work. More flash developers need to reach out to other developers and look to make large scale independant works. Games of grand scale can only be accomplished with the work of many talented people.

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I can agree and in the same time disagree with that statement.
In the modern world of communications, there are no problem for flash developers to reach each other :) and work on the same project from remote locations. As you said there were several demos which shows Flash capability to make 3D worlds as well as greater things then simple point and click engines. Now we must wait. I believe that we'll see many great games made in Flash in upcoming 2006. And I hope it will be done by big companies with good budget and not by talented individuals which use their spare time to make something great :)

by Evil_Demon_Creatue

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In this day and age, a game like super mario would wouldn't stand out as something impressive....

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and

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But that only means that we must attempt these types of endeavours and give them public attention...

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yes I agree! did you look at my previous posts?, I said Flash games do not exist in a vaccum, but I also said that it would help if Flash games were up to the standard of say yoshi's island and games of that type even though yes it would be outdated I think it would help further the Flash games cause and push more development money into Flash development, don't forget these "old" 2d games are still being released for the handhelds, so there is still a market for them anyway.

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so I am not a fan of the beleif that a development platform should be restricted to one particular type of game, and vica-versa.

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thats not what I was saying, If someone can create halo 2 in Flash then cool, but of course thats going to be impossible now, it might be in 5 years time, but now yet. What I was talking about was money for Flash games, and my point was that people pay £40 for a new console game based upon the fact that they have the latest 3D graphics, which right now can't be recreated in Flash, and therefore its pointless Flash trying to compete directly for that kind of market. As I repeatedly said I think lots of money can be made out of Flash games, if they increase in quality, and if some of the ad spend goes in their direction.

in repy to tonypa

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Flash is not really game development platform, games can be made, but that is only one use (and not important one for late Macromedia). Animations, videos, applications, websites and all kind of strange things are made with Flash and so it has to provide tools for everyone.

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The Helmsman replied to this well, and he's right. There are hardly any dedicated gaming development tools, most people take tools which are just for making "software" and then create the code for gaming. I've developed with Flash from version 5, and the first thing I thought when seeing it was this would be great for game development, I thought that before thinking of using it for websites or anything else. I think Flash is perfect for 2D games, which is why I'm surprised why more high quality games of this type are not created. In a way (even though I'm a fan of easy to use functions) Flash is its own worst enemy, because it is so easy to create "basic" games with it, so (as in the early days of web design) everyone and their dog thinks they can create games with it, which of course on one level is cool and good and all that, but on another level it means you end up with 100000 crap Flash games. Making the market rates for Flash games (including the high quality ones) too low. I totally agree with whats been said before in regards to, if a game is getting a huge number of plays then the author(s) should get an increased benefit from that. But how?

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Successful games use the natural strengths of the platform and dont try to be something else

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?? so when Castle wolfenstein first came out on the PC all those years ago, the PC was the perfect machine for 3D games programming?? no it wasn't, but that game showed that it could be possible to do new and interesting things on a platform that was otherwise used for word processing and spreadsheets. Theres all kinds of things possible with Flash, but I don't think thats the issue here, I think the issue here is, is there any point doing new and interesting games in Flash? because of the relative lack of money you will get in return for all the time and energy put into them? Thats the question, and I gotta say yes it is, but the security issue needs to be addressed though.

In reply to the discussion about Flash not being geared toward games, I agree with this. As Boombanguk said, most programs aren't geared specifically for making games(though one example is Blitz Basic specifically for games) but for making software in general, which can be applied to games. The difference is, Flash is not a software development tool, and thus is harder to create large games.

In regards of getting paid much less compared to the console industry, the console games sold for $60 have endless overhead, and require this large amount to make a profit. Don't think that because they have a high revenue that it is all profit. The more chance of profit you have, the more chance you have of losing money.

As tonypa said, there are plenty of casual gamers with money to spend, and Flash is more suited for targetting them then others. If a group specifically cares about graphics, there is no point of targetting them for a game, as the response will be much less than targetting a group who enjoys simple games, puzzles etc..

My 2.5 cents.

in reply to UnknownGuy

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The difference is, Flash is not a software development tool, and thus is harder to create large games.

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its not? I guess it depends on how you define "software development tool" to me if its possible to program a language with it, then its a software development tool.

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In regards of getting paid much less compared to the console industry, the console games sold for $60 have endless overhead, and require this large amount to make a profit. Don't think that because they have a high revenue that it is all profit. The more chance of profit you have, the more chance you have of losing money.

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thats all true, and the developers of these games only see a small percentage of that $60, retailers, distributers, publishers all take their cut first. But still a huge amount of money is put into developing these games because of how they look, because they are at the cutting edge of game graphics technology. I think the discussion of why doesn't Flash games get the same kinda development money as console games is a mute point, the real question is, are Flash games developers getting what they should for their games? and if not, why not? are Flash games just not good enough? (kinda my point :))

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Originally Posted by Bombanguk

its not? I guess it depends on how you define "software development tool" to me if its possible to program a language with it, then its a software development tool.

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It really depends what you call software. I call software something that must be installed, though not all software has to be installed, but is normally a characteristic of software. Flash to means seems to be a step above software, as Flash itself is software, things made with flash seem like lightware, for lack of a better term. Though I know everything is made with some kind of software, but Flash is very high-level code.

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Originally Posted by Bombanguk

are Flash games developers getting what they should for their games?

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That is a very good question. To answer it we would need to know the profit that a game portal gets from a game.

Wow. This is becoming quite a serious thread.

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Originally Posted by tomsamson

With as3 and the new vm the overall code execution speed is massively improved,so games with heavy code chunks per frame refresh (for example things where you have lots of physics simulations or pathfinding) will profit a lot from the heavily improved code execution.

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Really?! Then I'd best be looking to upgrade....

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

?? so when Castle wolfenstein first came out on the PC all those years ago, the PC was the perfect machine for 3D games programming?? no it wasn't

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But it was the only machine that could handle it. This is, I think, the biggest burden Flash has. Flash takes up A TON of CPU. I can run Half-Life 2 very nicely on my computer, but if I run a .fla running four or five ragdolls, my computer lags up (probably due to my old MX2004 Pro).

Looking at these modern games on the 360 and PC, we often forget how much actually goes into one of these games. There are IMMENSE amounts of code to every new game, an amount that I doubt any Flash program will be able to handle for a good while. That also raises the question of how much time will someone want to put into their Flash game. I doubt anyone wants to spend 10+ years creating the next Half-Life of Flash, so they make simple games; however, there are some people who are willing to put in the time and effort to do amazing things and are well rewarded for their efforts.

When I first played N, I was blown away by the addictive gameplay, all the physics, etc. I personally think that N should have cost money. If they caught people early with a demo, they could have made a lot of money, which brings me to my next point: If a game is good enough that people want more and would pay for it, give them what they pay for. I think the biggest thought that goes through a person's mind when they are playing a game is "Where is my money going?" If that person isn't going to get much, then I would think that person would be really PO'ed. On the other hand, if the developer gives the goods, the consumer will most likely trust that developer to put out. IMO, this is how companies like Bioware and Valve have such huge names put next to their particular genre of games: People know what these guys can do and they know they do it well.

Take Valve, for example. They were the cutting edge of gaming with Half-Life 1 and made serious strides to make Half-Life 2 the biggest next-gen shooter. But they are also well-known as being very supportive of the modding community, even releasing the coveted Source SDK.

If people begin to realize that Flash developers can put out those Half-Life 1's and Halo's, I think that we will see a huge increase in Flash games that will have a price tag on them.

I think I'm one of those people who wants to do everything to the next level, a step above the norm and I'd bet there are others here who are the same way. I want to create the game that others look to and say, "That game's the ****!" and be inspired to follow suit with creating revolutionary games. I know I'm willing to put forth the effort to do it. At the same time, I'm also worried about the people to whom I'm targeting with my game.

Will I create something that has one major flaw that can't really be fixed?

Will my game be regarded as something done before?

Or will my game just flat out suck? :p

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"That game's the ****!" and be inspired to follow suit with creating revolutionary games. I know I'm willing to put forth the effort to do it. At the same time, I'm also worried about the people to whom I'm targeting with my game.

Will I create something that has one major flaw that can't really be fixed?

Will my game be regarded as something done before?

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well that depends on what you are trying to achieve with your game. And what you want back in return for doing it. People do Flash games for many reasons. But this thread was mainly about getting paid decently for Flash games, and if they were worth the effort of the time and energy put into them.

A lot of people do Flash games because they can :). Whats good about Flash games is that there are so many people involved, so theres a real community (i think its also a drawback though, see previous post). What Flash games needs now is to go to the next stage, and I think it will during 06/07.