[good reading] article about game portals on "escapist"

Nice quote [m].

"Squize could probably give us more information about this but as far as I know Static Shock is based on the same engine as the Shoot the Hearts game (which is..of course.. the most perfect game in the world Defender.*)"

Yep, Static is a re-skin of Heart Attack. Still took a fair bit of work though, it had a lot more love added and also a ton of animation a la dayDream.
Game play wise I don't think we altered too much, collecting the circuits ( Hearts ) instead of being able to only collect them when a baddie has dropped them.

( Actually, based on Dropzone which in turn was based on Defender. Dropzone is a perfect example of someone taking a game they love, and adding all the other little things they think would make it better, and making it, well, better :) ).

My cheekiest re-skin is

MJ-1912
http://www.pnflashgames.com/store/pr...9&cat=3&page=1

From MJ-12
http://www.pnflashgames.com/store/pr...8&cat=3&page=1

In my total defence, 1912 was only meant to be a one week only limited edition remix, just a slight break down in communication between Lee and myself.
There is actually a JBJ Sisters Milk-It mix which hasn't seen the light of day yet. I pretty much pulled the piss there too :)

Ray, I think Spindizzy being a marble madness clone is a bit harsh. It's amazing looking back at the games right at the start in the early 80's, just every arcade game was copied wholesale without any thought to licence ( Like all the tetris and pac man clones in Flash, in those days it was everything. Untold Scramble, Frogger and Donkey Kong clones ).

Squize.

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Originally Posted by Squize

Ray, I think Spindizzy being a marble madness clone is a bit harsh. It's amazing looking back at the games right at the start in the early 80's, just every arcade game was copied wholesale without any thought to licence ( Like all the tetris and pac man clones in Flash, in those days it was everything. Untold Scramble, Frogger and Donkey Kong clones ).
Squize.

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You might be interpretting "clone" to mean "badly made" (?), but that's not the case. SpinDizzy IS a MM clone. It's just well made and was successful. Just like how Zuma IS a clone of PuzzLoop, but I enjoy Zuma alot more than I do Puzzloop.

Clone != bad game

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Originally Posted by walnoot

I wonder if anyone knows if Pazhitnov cares about this, or is he just a proud man?

I would be a proud man I guess.

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Oh man, there is a LONG and complex story around Tetris, and let me tell you, Alexi Pajitnov did not walk away with pride. (ON a side note, last i heard, Alexi works for MSN Games. He designed Hexic)

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I hate money getting involved with art, and the same I think about game-development.

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I think most people do, but unless you have a friend who will let you live in his basement and borrow his computer equipment, what can you do? I know I have a mortgage and bills to pay, so money HAS to be part of the equation. It's just how the world works. Lucky for me I have the capacity to make Flash be what I do for a living.

I know many have pipe dreams of "free societies" where you can do what you love and not have money be part of the equation, but the realism of such a society is that it would be full of freeloaders, thieves and anarchy. The percentage of the population that has the intelligence and perseverence to do things for the sake of doing them is very very tiny, and I think you'd quickly find that the majority would take over, start killing each other, including that tiny majority who wish to live making their "art". You'd find yourself not living your art every day, but fighting for survival.


The only way you can truly make games as "art", and not worry about cash would be to do so under government or private art grants. But hell, even then you'd be under pressure from some group, no?

Sorry to take this thread off on a tangent, it's just that I honestly believe that Spindizzy isn't a clone ( And I don't mean that in a negative way, referring back to Dropzone again, that's a clone of Defender but it rocks big time ) of MM.

http://www.gamebase64.com/oldsite/ga..._gyroscope.htm

Now that's a clone, I feel Spindizzy is far enough removed from MM to be it's own game. More than likely inspired by MM, but really far removed.

And on with the thread :)

Squize.

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Originally Posted by Squize

Now that's a clone, I feel Spindizzy is far enough removed from MM to be it's own game. More than likely inspired by MM, but really far removed.

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I AGREE!!! :p That Gyroscope game is the one I was thinking of. Sorry for the confusion with game titles.

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What the current thinking is going to do, if it continues, is annihilate any nascent sense of community in this field. Ask yourself this: If you had a good original game idea right now, mocked up in a prototype form but not completed, how comfortable would you be posting it in the Indie Gamer forums? Would you suspect - rightly - that rather than getting constructive feedback and criticism, you'd instead be giving a bunch of people a head start in ripping you off?

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Ya thats really scary, I finally finished my first game that is pretty good. Its actually really good considering its my first game, alot better then these dodge the maze with youre mouse first game posts you see. I was going to post it and get some feedback but now that dosnt sound so fun.

I was also wondering, who sends games to these portals anyways?? Seriously, why would you give youre game to NG for a lousy 250$ and maybe some dumb t-shirt. I dont see how so many flashers sell them selves short like that. Maybe its because people dont know what else to do with there flash to make some money. Someone needs to come out with a big popular site that will pay good money for nice original games, that you cannot submit to any other site w/o logos ect. ect. Oh btw, if there is one of these let me know! =)

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Originally Posted by imjoedaddy

I was also wondering, who sends games to these portals anyways?? Seriously, why would you give youre game to NG for a lousy 250$ and maybe some dumb t-shirt. I dont see how so many flashers sell them selves short like that.

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I wouldn't call Newgrounds a game portal. It started as a content portal, hosting Flash movies (mostly animation...generally with sex, violence, drugs, FDA or what not in it). It gave artists recognition and a chance to reach a very large (but fickle) audience. The payment stuff was added just recently (probably because Tom is starting to make a profit on the sucker). I still don't see the money offer as the point of Newgrounds, it is more like icing on the cake. I still know several artist who host on Newgrounds because when they tried to host their cartoons on their own site, they got hit with a huge bill. :p

Also, at least Newgrounds content is provided by the authors, and it is not filled with stolen content. (Unlike some other portals I can name but won't)

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Ya thats really scary, I finally finished my first game that is pretty good. Its actually really good considering its my first game, alot better then these dodge the maze with youre mouse first game posts you see. I was going to post it and get some feedback but now that dosnt sound so fun.

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It's up to you. If I have a finished project, I'd show it here, no problem. It still takes time for people to "make a clone" of something. Since I have little time to work on stuff, it often takes me months to complete something which would have taken days if I was just working on it 8 hours a day (like my real job). So that's the only reason I'm concerned. Otherwise, I wouldn't really care as much.

-pXw

Maybe after I figure out a few bugs, add a nice intro screen, figure out a high score list, and all that good stuff ill post it.

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Originally Posted by Ray Beez

I AGREE!!! :p That Gyroscope game is the one I was thinking of. Sorry for the confusion with game titles.

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:) hehe, i always do the same ...


back to clones:
a quick glance at my game collection reveals about
-45 direct q-bert clones
-120 pac man rip offs
... and so on and these are c64 games only

though, not all of them where commercial ones. well. while writing i can see some similarities between the c64 indie games and flash games (although there is much more crap made with flash)

nGFX

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Originally Posted by hooligan2001

Yeah makes you think twice about posting alpha's and beta's but its good to get that sort of feedback before you release something. To bad you cant copyright a game idea.

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That's why i always say that the most important thing in the game is a story. You can expose engine to public in early alpha but w/o the story it will be one more engine and nothing more. When the game is complete and implements all the elements of the story it is very difficult to clone it, cause you can copyright game environement (which others calls the WORLD). That what was done with AD&D for example. You can create similar game but you cant use the same story/ world. :)

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Originally Posted by tonypa

Just how many games released last year were innovative? Lets say 5 from thousands of titles. And none of the innovative games sell too well.

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I disagree with that statement. I saw a lot of new fresh ideas in casual games market during first two month of 2006. I can give you a few examples:
Bola
Trilinks
WarBears
Ninjaman

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Originally Posted by nGFX

yep, that might be the reason why so many "professionals" left the board or only post a "release" msg ...

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Who is left? I see the same ppl here, several new guys and all oldies in the place. Anybody missed?
:)

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Originally Posted by WilloughbyJackson

I have yet to see a remake of Elevator Action in Flash. If I see someone make Elevator Action in Flash, I don't think "Hey, that's just Elevator Action!", I usually think, "Now why the heck didn't I think of that?" and if the game is good then "Nice show!"

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True... true... but did you think why its happens this way? Because someone took old 20 years idea and brought it to new environement. I'm really sick of games made exactly as the old ones (i mean using the same gfx, story and etc). If I need to play old DOS game or old C64 game I'm going to get emulator and run an original one. The big mistake here is to get old game idea and make it as as in Flash w/o bringing anything new in it. That's makes me sick guys.

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Originally Posted by WilloughbyJackson

As I noted before, if a client told me to make Pacman, I'd make Pacman. But I'm also the type of guy who'd attempt to use the infamous Hollywood combo speech. "Well, what if we add jumping and other power-ups.. it would be like Pacman meets Super Mario Brothers!" (Depending upon time and budget range...)

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Exactly - thats approach i'm talking about :)

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Originally Posted by Ray Beez

You can't beat the prices if you have it made in China,

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You can - that answer lies in quality. I didn't see any China based web design company which works on the level of 2Advanced for example. Therefore if the customer needs something similar to 2Advanced product he'll never go to China market.

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Originally Posted by Ray Beez

Average dev time is anywhere from 2 to 6 months.

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To a company or individual?

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Originally Posted by walnoot

Because I would love to see flashkitforums filtering the words:cost, money, dollar, how much, benefit, etc.etc. for the sake of creating without any other pressure than the sake of creating.

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:)

2Advanced ? *shudder*

np Ray, I'm just really anal when it comes to games, memory like a steel trap, but can't remember my gf's birthday. Geek memory I believe it's called :)

I can't understand this current wave of paranoia here about showing proof of concept / beta games.
I can think of one occasion when someone had an idea taken, but to be fair he beta'd it and then didn't touch it for a couple of months ( And it was a very simple concept ).

If you all think how long your last game took to make. What are the chances that someone will see a beta of yours here, be currently between projects, and manage to rip it off before you complete it yourself ? Kinda low.
The most likelyhood is that you'll finish your game, get it out there but without a huge amount of exposure and then someone will clone it with improved graphix / sfx etc. but why even worry about that ?

Squize.

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Originally Posted by Squize

2Advanced ? *shudder*

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You too?
:)

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Originally Posted by Squize

wave of paranoia

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It's not paranoia mate, just ppl wants 15 minutes of glory
:)

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

I disagree with that statement. I saw a lot of new fresh ideas in casual games market during first two month of 2006. I can give you a few examples:
Bola
Trilinks
WarBears
Ninjaman

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not all of them are new, though.
bola for instance is a usual "swap 2 to get 3 in a row" (bejeweled, jewelquest ...)
ninjaman is a (very well done) game like "ninja" (c64)

you get the point. if i dig deep enough i will find a similar version of all games above (ok, maybe not trilinks ;) )

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

Who is left? I see the same ppl here, several new guys and all oldies in the place. Anybody missed?

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mhm. true, at least nobody i *miss*

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

You can - that answer lies in quality. I didn't see any China based web design company which works on the level of 2Advanced for example. Therefore if the customer needs something similar to 2Advanced product he'll never go to China market.

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2advanced *shudder*

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I'm just really anal when it comes to games, memory like a steel trap, but can't remember my gf's birthday. Geek memory I believe it's called

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*sigh* and i thought only i have this kind of "selective" memory

nGFX

Man! I'm horribly jealousy I didn't start this [DISC] thread.

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

That's why i always say that the most important thing in the game is a story. You can expose engine to public in early alpha but w/o the story it will be one more engine and nothing more.

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Unfortunately, most of my ideas are very much connected to the gameplay... I could release "Dreamcrushers" with just the beta stuff I have for it right now and I'M SURE everyone would understand the story and idea. (i.e. Insane Rampage clone...)

Also, I am starting to think graphics are more important than anything else in Flash (and will start a disc thread about that sometime). I've seen enough half baked games with so-so gameplay get really popular because they look neat, awesome, cool, funky fresh.

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman Again

True... true... but did you think why its happens this way? Because someone took old 20 years idea and brought it to new environement. I'm really sick of games made exactly as the old ones (i mean using the same gfx, story and etc). If I need to play old DOS game or old C64 game I'm going to get emulator and run an original one. The big mistake here is to get old game idea and make it as as in Flash w/o bringing anything new in it. That's makes me sick guys.

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I've talked to a lot of casual gamers now who have never owned or played anything before SNES or even PSOne. They also don't want to waste time downloading the E word and looking the R word (especially since it is not. A lot of people haven't played the classics, and I'm all for them being remade into Flash... ONCE...NOT 100 TIMES OVER AND OVER AGAIN!

You won't see me doing it (unless I'm getting paid too), but I have no problem with people who do.

Also, I was mostly refering to someone who creates something like "Metal Gear Elevator Action" which plays like the original but looks insanely different and has all the blood and cursing to make it number one at Newgrounds. ;)

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman Once More

I disagree with that statement. I saw a lot of new fresh ideas in casual games market during first two month of 2006. I can give you a few examples:
Bola
Trilinks
WarBears
Ninjaman

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A very important question, did they get paid for them? Because if they did, more power to them, but as far as I know, some of them were someone's efforts released by love. (WarBears, for example. Great freakin' game, but it had to be moved from his own website to Newgrounds because so many people were playing it...I've seen it on a Japanese link site and 2channers can kill your bandwidth like NOBODIES business...)

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Originally Posted by walnoot

Because I would love to see flashkitforums filtering the words:cost, money, dollar, how much, benefit, etc.etc. for the sake of creating without any other pressure than the sake of creating.

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Then ignore it all...that's what I do.

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Originally Posted by Squize

I can't understand this current wave of paranoia here about showing proof of concept / beta games.

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As I said before, for me, it's mostly a part of my "motivate Willoughby to complete a bunch of no-pay game stuff for 2006" plan... ;)

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Originally Posted by Squizebabe

np Ray, I'm just really anal when it comes to games, memory like a steel trap, but can't remember my gf's birthday.

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I wish I had a gf.

OH WAIT! I'M MARRIED.* :yikes:

-pXw

* The following was a dramatization of Willoughby's bad memory. Had this been an actual case of Willoughby's bad memory, he'd just forget the exact date of his anniversery...again...

One of the only flash game I can think of in the last couple of years that stuck me as being slightly original was Jack Russell (whether it was original or I just haven't seen the game it was a copy of is another matter), and within 10 days someone else had taken the mechanics and created another game, though at least he credited jack russell for the idea.
10 days.
That could easily be the time that it would take to get a game from beta to release, and before you've released your game someone releases the version they copied from your beta and everyone thinks that your game is the clone. That would annoy me. (Again I shouldn't act too holier than thou. I sent it round my office, and I was recently asked to do a time estimate for making a version of it :zombie: )

This only really matters it's the game idea that is the most important thing.
For someone like me where most of my games come from WilloughbyJackson's pacman on steroids mentality it's not so important. The reason I dont really like posting betas is more for fear that someone will steal the swf and host it (and for work stuff my company won't let unfinished stuff out of the office) than that someone will steal the idea. Since the idea is usually already stolen.

It would be interested to see what would happen if the first person who made bejewled (is that the original verison?) started sueing people like Nintendo did over tetris 10 years back. Does anyone know about the legality of this kind of thing?

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Originally Posted by happinessSam

One of the only flash game I can think of in the last couple of years that stuck me as being slightly original was Jack Russell (whether it was original or I just haven't seen the game it was a copy of is another matter), and within 10 days someone else had taken the mechanics and created another game, though at least he credited jack russell for the idea.

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althought it is nearly the same source. (sorry, couldn't resist) the similarity of the menu was to close to be a ripoff ... it's just a reskin.

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Originally Posted by WilloughbyJackson

Also, I am starting to think graphics are more important than anything else in Flash (and will start a disc thread about that sometime). I've seen enough half baked games with so-so gameplay get really popular because they look neat, awesome, cool, funky fresh.

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(don't get me wrong here folks, i LOVE those games) i guess one example for that could be orsinal - all cute, all nice and shiny, but for me as "experienced, longtime gamer (since the first tv-pong)" they are (sorry again) just little "30sec of fun" games. nothing that really satisfies me longer than the first level. but i must admit, i know way too many games (like squize) to not spot the original or even know the first version.

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Originally Posted by happinessSam

It would be interested to see what would happen if the first person who made bejewled (is that the original verison?) started sueing people like Nintendo did over tetris 10 years back. Does anyone know about the legality of this kind of thing?

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as has been said before, there is a LONG *sad* story behind tetris.
bejeweled may have been the first successfull flash version, but i have played at least one "swap 2 to create 3" games on the c64.
and if you look close, you can spot the tetris beneath it ...
so first there was tetris, the first slightly modified gameplay may have been columns (i know it from sega's game gear) and now modifie the gamplay a bit more and you have bejeweled ...

nGFX

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

You can - that answer lies in quality. I didn't see any China based web design company which works on the level of 2Advanced for example. Therefore if the customer needs something similar to 2Advanced product he'll never go to China market.

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I wasn't talking about web design, I was making an analogy to manufacturing of actual goods. If you have a toy idea, and you have it made in china for pennies on the dollar, the risks of your toy's molds and concept being sold off and knocked off are very high.

My point was that other industries face the exact same problem.

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(Ray Beez): Originally Posted by Ray Beez
Average dev time is anywhere from 2 to 6 months.
To a company or individual?

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For a team. If you want to compete at the level of quality of the games that currently sell big in the casual market (Popcap, Gamehouse, etc) you need 2 to 6 months, depending on the type of game you are making. And this is considering at least 2 people (1 artist + 1 coder) though realistically you'll also need someone for sound/music, and testing.

I'll let you know in about 2-3 months if my estimate is right. ;-)

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Originally Posted by happinessSam

It would be interested to see what would happen if the first person who made bejewled (is that the original verison?) started sueing people like Nintendo did over tetris 10 years back. Does anyone know about the legality of this kind of thing?

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I thought I already posted about this in this thread, but I think it may have been in a different thread. YOU CANNOT COPYRIGHT A GAME IDEA. Nor can you patent it. This has already been proven in court back with "Capcom VS Data East" when Data East copied Street Fighter II. Capcom lost.

The Nintendo suits you are remembering had nothing to do with suing a "cloner". It had to do with a big old mix-up regarding what company had the official license to Tetris. Long story short, it was determined Nintendo had signed the contracts first, so Atari (Tengen) had to stop selling their version.

I would imagine it MIGHT be possible to patent aspects of a truly unique gameplay design, but the patent process is so slow and costly, by the time you get your patent granted, years will have gone by.