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xzeox you might consider carefully claiming someones work is not professional looking when you have a site which has many non working buttons, is hosted on a free hosting and is not on the page completely but cut off. And didn't I see this site as a Template somewhere before?

I'm not saying you are not entitled to an opinion but you offered your site as an example of professional site and I think it is FAR from that. I don't think all of Bob's sites are the worlds greatest sites but they all seem to be complete and working. Several of them I think are very well done. And since his clients were willing to pay for them that by default makes them professional at some level.

Constructive critisism is allways a good thing but to simply tell someone that their work is not good. Or that they should add more graphics is well kinda petty and certainly not worth you saying it twice. I would imagine Bob would take offense.

I couldn't of put it better than Blanius did. I disagree with everything xzerox_xzerox say's (Judging by your last post, you didn't look at all of them the first time you posted, did you?). I get email all the time from people who visit my sites saying how much they like them. More so, I get clients who refer me to others, who PAY me to do there's. I like my sites. The "eye of the beholders" I care about. I've had over 20 web sites online. How many web sites do you have published? None? Do you really think your sites look good? My guess is most people wouldn't, but that's not the point of these fourms. What your web sites DON'T do is work, and that's why we're all here. To help each other out, not make stupid, unfounded remarks. I put these up for people to see what you can do with KoolMoves. So to anybody else out there (with some taste), you CAN make GOOD LOOKING, PROFESSIONAL web sites with KoolMoves.

blanius by webpages are not proffesional... not at all... :D It wasn't my meaning to offend anybody...

Im sorry!

by the way bob... my webpages do not look like **** beacuse i gets very nice feedback for them...

Gentlemen, please, perhaps a few words from a pro may help resolve your dispute.
Your quite right in that it is in the eye of the beholder, and you need to consider your target market, nautrally a site for young peoples music would have a diferent theme from a site featuring bonzi trees, where the anticipated audience is likley to be older.
Secondly, the client is always right, even when most of them have no idea at all, they are still right, however part of you skill as a designer is to be able to sell your ideas in place of theirs.
Finally it is not always a good reason to do something just because you can, what I mean by this is it is easy to show off with the latest trick you have learned, however it is only wise when appropreate to the project. How many silly bits of java have you seen on sites with modified cursers, daft music, scrolling text that does nothing but annoy. The real tallent is not only undersatnding how to do the trick, the more difficult trick is to know when to perform it. Try looking at the site check thread, and if you see a sight that feels good to you, emulate it, if it has the opposite effect, remember not to make the same mistake yourself.
Finally, if we were all the same and liked the same things it would be a damned boring place.

Hope this helps

"Secondly, the client is always right, even when most of them have no idea at all, they are still right, however part of you skill as a designer is to be able to sell your ideas in place of theirs."

i completly agree with that. www.jlcentre.yoyo.pl -> this is my last project. I dont like this site - there is so many graphics, its not simple etc. but i had to do it like it is now. it doesnt look pro, becasue friend wanted to site be like it is...

but ill give you example which all of us should know - wrappaper template. i love it. I like it so much, that ive put my folio on it (www.mroofka-z.yoyo.pl - chceck out my photos in info :) ). This is a template, but it is just perfect (IMHO) - i wouldnt make site better than this - maybe ive got skills, but im not talented.

btt: bob's sites are different - i dont like this with player, it doesnt look like a finished site but i like the page with pursues (excluding this red/pink color, yuck). I dont like the grazler's background, but i like the lamps... so let me say, as a side observer, that 3/4 of each site is pro. the rest may belong to client :)

Sorry I just felt I had to take him to task, Bob showed some decent looking work to share and the comments looked pretty harsh especially when his site is what it is. I suppose I should have held my tounge (keys) and taken into account that he's probably very young and not experienced with mature criticism.

Actually, I did write a reply, but decided not to post it. I've been doin' this for over ten years now, I know you're not going to please everyone (Thank God). I don't critique someones work unless I'm asked, usually. There are infinite ways to approach design. I doubt Neo-Punk-Gothic style would be my choice for the Sister's site, but somewhere out there, there may be a nun saying, "We need to attract the young. Maybe a Neo-Punk-Gothic style web site will do the trick!". And I'd do my best to pull it off. The Ad agency/Design firm I worked at would give me a photoshop file and say,"Do this", and I'd do it (Boy did this forum come in handy then, boy howdy. Thanks again for all the help). I would watch the site go through dozens (Sometimes what seemed like thousands) of changes as it went through the chain of command of who ever we were working for. Some would have no resemblance to the original idea. Some were better, some weren't (Again in my opinion). So style and design are pretty subjective. Ant_z doesn't like the pink on the purse site. I'm not too crazy about it myself, but I think it works for the clientèle it draws (I rotate it with a gold themed site, as a matter of fact. I'll throw that one up for a while. Thanks for reminding me). That was the first all flash site I ever built (See above thanks). It HAD to have SOME animation :yikes: . Howard's site was designed to look like the CD that came out at the time. The background sold the site to everyone, especially the record company. But I could do a much cleaner looking one without it (Can't wait for the next CD to come out. It's do a make over). I want to re-design all my sites as soon as they go up. Then do it again. Sometimes it's knowing when to quit that makes a pro. Sometimes it takes a carnival, sometimes a haiku poem.

I'm not sure which player your talkin' about ant (can I call you ant, or do you prefer ant_z?), but the record player was an example of a project I ( And a large part of this forum) did. It's an example link. I'm still having trouble with the blasted volume knob, but it's close. And I like both the sites.

And xzerox (May I call you xzerox , or do you prefer xzerox_xzerox?). I don't think your site looks like %#@& (I prefer comic book swearing). I never said that. And as far as being a pro, when someone hands you a wad of bills for doing their site, bingo, you're a pro.

Ok bob i see it now :) You could call me richard by the way. Xzerox is fune to :D

ant, ant_z, ant_Z, mroofka, mroofka_Z, or just dave - as you wish, just let me know its to me :]

" And as far as being a pro, when someone hands you a wad of bills for doing their site, bingo, you're a pro."
i wouldnt agree with that. pro is defined by style and knowledge, abilities and skills. Making designs somethimes is on the cilent side, so we shouldnt judge bob's proffesionalism over design of his sites, but over how are they made...
btw, without any asking - as some1 said before - we just shouldnt judge or critic any body.

"he's probably very young and not experienced with mature criticism."

i think im younger, and ill say that mature criticism is the best way to become a pro. Look on photoshop pictures - noobs' have cripsy edges for example, and pro's are antialiased. This is called at mines "profesjonalizm wykonania", i dont know how to translate it, but it would be like "proffessionalism of made of current work and how it works..."

Not sure where we are going with this, but I think we have consensus that it is in the eye of the beholder and has to be appropreate to the subjuct matter, if we all agree to that then it just comes down to personal preferance, and please remember the internet gives the business or organisation you represent a chance to create a personality in an unreal world, take a look at how insurance companies may market the same old stuff but with different 'flavours' of image to attract different markets. Where the real mistakes are made is when a business looks worse as a result of having a poor site than before it invested in one.

Stoke Laurie says "not sure were we are going with this" but i remember when this forum was to help people with their websites. Like if links did not work or if pics were blurry in firefox. The makers of a site had to worry if the customer was upset. And most important was if an idea could work. Not to be a crazy way of complaining of artistic value.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tmoore935

help people with their websites..... Not to be a crazy way of complaining of artistic value.

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I think you will find that that is exactly what I have been saying. :thumbsup:

Well, it wasn't my intention to have a thread about artistic merit, but there you go. I personaly thought it to be a good thread. All the technical skill in the word is meaningless without some designing talent. And this thread ,to me, shows just how different people feel what constitutes good design. And why we design the way we do. This is not a bad thing. I was going to post about my experience with clients and "shockwave shock". but it has more to do with design than technique. Should we just end this thread then?

Well we have strayed far from Koolmoves and this is a Koolmoves support forum..

Well, I've seen threads stray alot farther than this. At least this one could be useful to people who use KoolMoves, or any web site building program. But whatever, shut it down if you like.

do what u like blanius... but i think this thred has gone a lil of topic :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xzerox_xzerox

do what u like blanius... but i think this thred has gone a lil of topic :P

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And how did that happen, Richard?

WOW, that record player is pretty cool. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks. The files for it are here:
http://board.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?t=657781

I'd still like to get the volume knob working better. And if I could get the arm to move across the record, THAT would be the cat's pajamas.