Adobe to cut 600 jobs

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Originally Posted by tonypa

Well, these improvements for Flash are all about Flash Player 10 which is free. Profit for Adobe comes from selling products like Flash CS4 or Flex, however you dont need to buy them to create F10 swfs, you can do it for free with SDK provided by Adobe. Now it is more of hassle to get it done so the money you spend on Flash CS4 is to "make things easier" and thats where Adobe completely fails. OK, you can easily draw simple shapes in Flash and make symbols and animate with keyframes but once you start to write Actionscript code you dont really benefit from Flash anymore - you can do same thing with free tools.

People who use Flash code editor do not use it because it is best possible tool to write Actionscript code, they use it because they have Flash anyway and it somewhat does the job. However, compared with free tools Flash does not provide any improvements so there is no real reason why people should buy it.

This is all caused by Adobe, for the last years they have drummed very hard about AS3 and how every respected developer must be using OOP and write their code using external classes. Only fools and idiots and stagnant developers not seeing the bright future of AS3 would use Flash and write code in timeline. So Adobe, the company who is trying to sell you Flash, is at same time spending lots of money and time telling you it is bad idea to use it. Its like car dealers writing books about how much better it is to use bicycles. What exactly is Adobe expecting when their message is "we want you to buy this pretty expensive product but we dont recommend it to be used"?

And I am sorry but I dont use any other Adobe products beside Flash so I am not able to comment those.

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"Only fools and idiots and stagnant developers not seeing the bright future of AS3 would use Flash and write code in timeline. "

that is nonsense. Clever people would only use AS3 where it makes more sense and use something else where that makes more sense and leads to better results in shorter and more enjoyable dev cycles and also to the content being visible to more people or run in better performance or allow more functionality.

So for 3D stuff many would use other technologies, even for going for other devices (flash runs on mobiles but way worse than java , its not available on iphone right now which already dominates 30%+ of the US mobile market and is climbing to similar numbers in other markets for example). For flash content creator people looking for really high penetration numbers, not faked statistics showing over 90% penetration in less than 6 months they´d use what´s more widespread, so older plugin versions. Also older flash/AS versions allow way faster rapid prototyping and in general quicker content creation so yeah, quite professional groups like nitrome interestingly still have most of their games in flash 6-8 creation way setup and churn out games in a speed barely possible with as3 workflow.

Besides that i totally agree with your comment, its Adobe´s own fault when flash ide sells worse and worse, they don´t add enough new features to it to make it interesting for pure designers (many newer features aren´t even integrated in graphical editing workflow) and they broke workflow between flash ide created graphical content and the codeside so much that with AS3 it really makes most sense to best use flash ide created graphical as few as possible in a project, so yeah, they leave fewer and fewer reasons to use flash ide.

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

On the other side with new AS3 you can do things which were impossible with AS2. ;)

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One has to differentiate there between two things:
1.: Things one can only do in AS3 thanks to content written in it in average having better code execution performance
2.: Things one can only do with it thanks to new syntax elements only available with AS3

to 1:
this is due to Adobe´s unwillingness or inability to propperly make use of the gpu with flash, if they did that propperly one could code things in AS1 and they would run at a ton better performance overall (code execution + graphical side combined) than the laughable performance flash now achieves overall when coding in AS3.

to2:
this is due to Adobe´s inability or unwillingness to propperly integrate the language versions and api enhancments in sensmaking way.
Which would for example be that all new snytax/api additions are also made available in AS1 and AS2 syntax. Also that they integrate things like in mono so one can use all language versions inside the same project.


So yeah, it would be totally feasable to allow doing things in AS1/2 that right now are only possible in AS3 thanks to the made up limitations by Adobe.
I don´t say oop and AS3 are all bad, it makes sense to do certain things in such workflow and mindest, usually reoccuring programming side only tasks one can then reuse and share in easier way than a fla with the code in it or also when its about doing massive frameworks for longtime reused code bases and projects.
That is just not what the majority of flash projects is about. The majority of flash projects is about doing flash content in short timespans which are in average at most updated 1-3 times after their release.
Also small game developers are usually about getting their content out quickly and to the biggest possible audience, bigger ones doing higher end content are often about performance and functionality not available with flash and also when you look at their code its mostly tailored for performance and their workflow, not readability or best oop practices.

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

Besides that, don't forget the new AIR technology which expands Flash 10 (and Flash 9 as well) to the desktops.

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Which zinc and other wrappers allowed ages ago and with tons more functionality needed and used in propper desktop apps.
Sure air would have in theory lots of custom nice sides like not having a machine specific binary but instead deliver a file type that can be experienced on all machines if they have a specific runtime. Well, that all is mostly unrealized future potential right now, you have to bet on Adobe spreadig the air runtime well and also working out all the kinks nicely and propperly improving the functionality in the coming versions. If you want to just make a desktop app today and spread it as much as possible and have most functionality at hand today you´re well better suited with other stuff than air. Also with their security and other thoughts based limtations they introduce in each technology i wouldn´t wonder if one still doesn´t have half the functionality/api commands when doing air apps in 5 years which one can use with zinc etc now.

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

Yeah, totally agree with you, that AS 1 and AS 2 much more easy to coding than AS 3, but.... on the other side it goes to be pain in the ass when you need to find something inside code written in AS 1 or 2 opposite to AS 3.

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One can structure things well when doing a flash/code combination inAS1/2, too (besides the point one can actually combine timeline animation, movieclips etc with code which is very limited with AS3) and also its not that much more fun either to work on someone else´s AS3 project and you first have to see how he did things,which workflow he used and which editor(s)/ides.
I´ve worked on othes AS3 stuff which was a combination of flas, flex component stuff and code files, AS and mxml mixed where they guy thought each made more sense, that wasn´t particularly fun to work with either.
Overall Adobe did a great job in totally convoluting the workflow with their apps/languages to the degree where its almost always a mess when you open someone elses or even your own project (after a while not having worked on it and maybe having changed your workflow some or using their newer apps) no matter which apps and workflow you had before.

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

If you look on sites represented by FWA (http://www.thefwa.com/), you'll see that 3D stuff is a small part of the whole "kick ass interactive" websites ;)

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"kick ass interactive websites" as presented by FWA is not what 99% of the web cares about. FWA mostly pushes advertising crap. People doing advertising websites often try to sell the newest en vogue toy to their clients in attempt to have a made up edge over a competitor or ask for more money. PV3D content for example is not what drives the web though and looks sucky to most people not caring whether it was made in flash and that´s why one should amazed by way outdated slow running,leading to the computer chugging crap.

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

Adobe way of security is not perfect and sometimes very hard to implement, but at least it works. ;)

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no, it doesn´t, hackers, as they always do find loopholes still and Adobe´s "security measures" limit developers and lead to millions of existing content sites breaking. Also with changes breaking old content Adobe puts a very negative image on using the flash platform for any longer time used content, it is a very important side to be able to say this is backwards compatible when its about a plugin and Adobe messed that up.

"Overall Adobe did a great job in totally convoluting the workflow with their apps/languages to the degree where its almost always a mess when you open someone elses or even your own project (after a while not having worked on it and maybe having changed your workflow some or using their newer apps) no matter which apps and workflow you had before."

It does really pain me that it's not like the old days of just sending someone a fla. It's now the fla, and the classes, and don't forget your own common classes are in a fixed folder on your hd so you have to enclose them to, and then explain the classpaths to the recipient etc.
( You're not using Flex or FDT ? Ok, let me mess around for ages getting it to compile in Flash again ).

May sound a tiny annoyance in the grand scheme of things, maybe it is, but it kinda annoys me that code isn't as shareable as it once despite things being in their own classes ( ie meant to be totally re-usable and shareable ).

It's like the code I released for the 48hr comp, I don't imagine for a moment anyone went to the effort to get it to run outside Flex.

"FWA mostly pushes advertising crap"

Got to disagree there mate. Yeah 99% of it is connected with advertising in some way, but that's what pays for the internet.
The vast majority on sites on there are aspirational and both developers and clients need something like that to have some sort of benchmark.

Squize.

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Originally Posted by Squize

"Overall Adobe did a great job in totally convoluting the workflow with their apps/languages to the degree where its almost always a mess when you open someone elses or even your own project (after a while not having worked on it and maybe having changed your workflow some or using their newer apps) no matter which apps and workflow you had before."

It does really pain me that it's not like the old days of just sending someone a fla. It's now the fla, and the classes, and don't forget your own common classes are in a fixed folder on your hd so you have to enclose them to, and then explain the classpaths to the recipient etc.
( You're not using Flex or FDT ? Ok, let me mess around for ages getting it to compile in Flash again ).

May sound a tiny annoyance in the grand scheme of things, maybe it is, but it kinda annoys me that code isn't as shareable as it once despite things being in their own classes ( ie meant to be totally re-usable and shareable ).

It's like the code I released for the 48hr comp, I don't imagine for a moment anyone went to the effort to get it to run outside Flex.

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exactly.
Regarding the most hyped AS2 workflow you talked about, Flash IDE+FDT+ some debugger/output tool (which really was the best for code base heavy projects back then because MM/Adobe already back then refusing to add a propper coding panel/compiler/debugger to flash ide) :
I had similar "fun" to hand out projects to others made that way and also recently i had to work on a project made that way by myself again and after not working in that workflow for a long time (cause with the flash platform its en vogue to change the workflow every 1-2 product cycles..) i also didn´t have eclipse, mtasc etc set up for that anymore on my current machine, and man was it a joy just to get it to the step where i could run my own project again..

With AS3 stuff its of course not much better, especially if in an example as the one i wrote about in my previous post where people also use mxml code and more other stuff with those mixed asset types/workflow ways of older flash versions, gets more and more convoluted and messed up, more and more a hinderance for exchanging things and working cross coder/designer or cross team members/teams.

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Originally Posted by Squize

"FWA mostly pushes advertising crap"

Got to disagree there mate. Yeah 99% of it is connected with advertising in some way, but that's what pays for the internet.

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banner ads/google type ads pay the internet mostly, not a pv3d site that chugs on my highend machine. That site usually only pays the dude who made that site (And pv3d creators rubbing their hands for yet another site pushing their stuff).

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Originally Posted by Squize

The vast majority on sites on there are aspirational and both developers and clients need something like that to have some sort of benchmark.

Squize.

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it can be nice to look at some of those sites but many of them are ones i´d look at once and never visit again (which tells a lot about their worth and usability) and many of them are also more the type where i think: aha, they again pushed this tech or way of doing things instead of using that other tech or workflow that would have lead to a way better result/user experience. For all of the others (so the ones that are actually of real worth) : Those are often not done or wouldn´t have to be done in the workflow/language version/tools Adobe tries to sell now.

"banner ads/google type ads pay the internet mostly, not a pv3d site that chugs on my highend machine."

Google ads account for about a 5th of the total ad revenue:
http://www.iab.net/about_the_iab/rec...release/572194
and
http://www.labnol.org/internet/googl...blishers/4991/

Which is a huge chunk I agree, I image it's nearer 4/5ths of all ad revenue is the lower end adsense style ads.

But that's not the design industry, it's a sales force, same as for your local newspaper. There's nothing creative there.

An expensive rich media banner ad campaign is all part of an overall advertising strategy which leads back to the high profile sites that are based on pv3d that chug on your machine.

Without the higher end sites as featured on thefwa ( To use the word again, the aspirational sites ) there wouldn't be the same level of creativity online.

We'd be left with blogs, "home made" sites ( Where's my copy of Frontpage ) and the odd experimental site.

So yeah not every site on the fwa is one you're going to go back to time and time again. Even something like eco-zoo or the red bull paper plane site aren't in my bookmarks list, 'cause I've seen them now, although "which tells a lot about their worth and usability" it doesn't.
If these sites aren't relevant to me, then I don't need to be checking back on them every week, it's nothing to do with their ability to convey the information to me, it's just that the information isn't that relevant.

It's like fashion, the over the top expressions of creativity and art are needed so they can filter down and make everyones browse of the net that bit better.

Squize.

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

I use Flash Develop to write all code, but Flash IDE used every time I need to add something to visual representation. No alternative.

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But you dont need CS4 for that

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

I use Flash Develop to write all code, but Flash IDE used every time I need to add something to visual representation. No alternative.

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Is it really good idea to spend 1,098 USD on a program to simply draw some stuff? I mean you can create swf files with thousands of other ways, many of them completely free.

And I understand you want to protect Flash but even you first admit you dont even use it :) Once you have bought and installed CS4 you go out and start to install other free programs to get any work done, that already shows how useless Flash has become.

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Originally Posted by tomsamson

this is due to Adobe´s inability or unwillingness to propperly integrate the language versions and api enhancments in sensmaking way.
Which would for example be that all new snytax/api additions are also made available in AS1 and AS2 syntax. Also that they integrate things like in mono so one can use all language versions inside the same project.

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I find it very disturbing they havent bothered to write compiler that can make AS3 bytecode from AS1/2 syntax code. They rather let all the work done over the years by millions of users become obsolete and force their customers to re-learn new language and rewrite everything. Thats pure laziness, they have a program to convert C++ code into AS3 but they cant convert AS1 code?