So a pv3d developer has found out about unity

also that that guy didn´t notice unity is probably mostly because he spent all the time working on pv3d stuff and doing pv3d courses and conference talks, hence why he probably wasn´t into trying out other (competing) tech for a long while. I brought up unity3d in the pv3d list often, some checked it out and others like this guy not for a long time, so what?
I think unity3d has gained a lot of momentum in the last 1.5 years what with the wii and iphone deploy options getting added, lots of other cool feature additions and the announcment they´re working on the windows ide, so yeah, deny all that all you want, i´m happy with it anyway.

This is flashkit, so I don't care about iphone or wii, just how Unity compares to Flash and other browser plugins.

Or are you pissed I was right. I told a long time ago, Unity would get nowhere against flash, and as you say in your title of this thread: "Papervision guy FINDS OUT about Unity"

Took him 3-4 years just to find out about it. Nobody cares about Unity until it's on windows.

No, you are wrong, most Unity browser games are not very good at all.

Ray is right, this thread is not appropriate here especially if we are discussing wii or iPhone UNity games. It's irrelevant.

just because you don´t make games other than for browser playback doesn´t mean everyone has to be like you. Just as sidenote many flash game developers of course also make games for other deploy ways than just browser playback.

I´m fine with if someone else has a different opinion than me, mine is probably just as off to you as yours is to me, so that´s cool, by now we know no matter how long we discuss this topic we won´t get on the same bottomline, so maybe you and me shouldn´t talk about this until the windows ide comes out :)

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by now we know no matter how long we discuss this topic we won´t get on the same bottomline

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Actually, I think we'd agreed a while ago that for real 3D it made more sense to use Unity ( or director ) than to keep masturbating with papervision and other flash "solutions".

I'm just saying, that since this is flashkit, the most relevant discussion is flash vs. Unity which means browser gaming in 99% of cases. And it's no contest there. Flash with fake 3D can even have games that look as good as Unity games ( or better if there is enough development time ) and there are ways around limitations of no 3D in flash regarding gameplay.

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Originally Posted by MikeMD

Flash with fake 3D can even have games that look as good as Unity games ( or better if there is enough development time )

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Man, i sure would like to have that special flash version you talk about. too bad it only gets sold on april 1st in dreamland.

What are you talking about? Fake 3D means pre-rendered, meaning it can look much better than Unity can ever hope for with real time 3D?

for example: http://www2.framestore.com/despereauxgame/

Unity can't touch that in real 3D. Now , of course you could use pre-rendered stuff in Unity too, but why when nobody has the plug-in installed. Then it makes more sense to use flash.

And there is no reason why somebody could not make a fake 3D game with that kind of visual quality.

have you played any of my games? maybe you noticed some use prerendered art massively. so yeah, i know a thing or two about the upsides and downsides and what flies and what not with such attempts.
To say that is comparable to realtime 3d is total nonsense, its something completely different.
Also if you tried to make a game with all prerendered art that gets even just halfway close in possibilities regarding cam movement & placement like based showing & animating characters etc in lots of different perspectives that quickly gets quite big in filesize for a browser game. And hey, weren´t you talking about we should focus on browser games in our talks?
If you mean it shouldn´t have the same functionality as a realtime 3d game but only look nicer in a single screenshot, then a winner is you, take a postage stamp and put a prerendered image on it and it can look better than the most highend realtime 3d thing (which just like your example prooves nothing).

Also consider that recent 3d tech demo game thread where the discussion was whether more should be prerendered or realtime or hey, when one thinks about it both don´t make sense a lot with flash on the web with all the current constraints when pushed to such extremes as that game did (attempt to). Anyway..

What good is a real time Unity 3D when nobody will play the game?

It a decision you have to make, and it's a very simple question. Do you want real 3D? Then use Unity and hope for the best.

Can you fake 3D and have a flash game instantly playable by everybody?

It's your choice. That is all there is really. A very simple question.
Right now I think there is no need for real time 3D that most people won't bother playing.

its not just about 3d capabilities.
unity performs so much better on way older systems than flash that i´d prefer using it for anything where flash requires a highend system to run it smoothly. in case of flash it already requires a quite highend machine for some laughably basic 2d stuff.

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unity performs so much better on way older systems than flash

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Not unless it's installed, and most likely it is not and will not be in the near future.

I get it, Unity is more advance, more capable. You can use 2d and 3d, we agree on all that. But, unless it reaches 60 - 70% of machines, it does not matter ( talking about browser gaming )

and so we´re again at the beginning of the endless circle and i reply: yada yada so you can reply again blabla, good times :)

It's not a circle. It a very short straight line.

On one end: Flash game --------everybody can play it

the other end: Unity game ------- most people won't bother playing it.

Which is a more capable app when it came to pure game creation was never in question. Even Director has always been more capable than flash, look what good it did it, even with 75% penetration once upon a time.

Give me some credit at least. I predicted over a year ago, that Unity would be irrelevant in browser gaming today. I'll tell you again right now. Next xmass still won't be much better.

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Originally Posted by Incrue

I dont think they care about making games as much as we

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In my case, you'd be wrong simply because this includes 3D.

The whole case against this simply should be based on the fact that Shockwave3D hasn't even been updated since 2000, Atmosphere went unhyped and basically "failed". If anything, Adobe will be gun shy to support a 3D app with yet another plugin based on prior failures.

Shockwave had/has impressive plugin installation base. And they let it languish. Atmosphere, not so well plugin penetration numbers, but they let it languish too. Adobe purchases Unity, it will be doomed too if Adobe purchases it.

Glad to see Unity has grown in the last couple of years. I hadn't paid attention to Unity since before it's 1.0 days - I was still using Anark heavily.

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Adobe purchases Unity, it will be doomed too if Adobe purchases it.

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Doesn't have to be that way. They could just buy them and let the same Unity team continue as they have so far. All Adobe would need to do is marketing.

Softimage XSI was owned by Microsoft then Avid, now Autodesk. I don't know the details, but Softimage seems to have gone through MS and AVID years without the actual owner affecting much, if anything of the actual XSI app.

Mostly, they just appended their names/logo tos the existing one and did the marketing.

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and most likely it is not and will not be in the near future

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In 17 days fusionfall will borne, it has everything to be the greatest browser multiplayer game ever, beating big time haboohotel, runescape and all the others.
It will:
a) massivaly increase the penetration
and/or
b)be a real world prove that for gamers, dowloading and stalling a plugin is not the nightmare some belive it is

I doubt Adobe considers Unity as competition to Flash, even in the comments of the article by pv3d guy, promoter from Adobe points out that "Flash is for developing RIAs, not games". I think they first started the RIA talk years back with F6 and they still officially promote Flash as serious development tool for serious businesses, happily ignoring the fact why Flash is so popular and why it is installed in every computer. Lucky for us, we can make games with Flash, however its not made to develop games.

Looks like Adobe tried to listen to customers with F10, at least pre-release talk was all about 3D and GPU, which of course has no meaning for RIAs, its only good for entertainment. But they overhyped it and never actually delivered no 3D and no GPU support, disappointing many people who were hoping Flash will finally get perfomance leap. This is probably good news for Unity as there is need for good browser based 3D game development platform, there are people who tried it with Flash for years and are giving up now. Flash (as part of CS4) is huge bloated piece of software that install unneeded rubbish everywhere, runs slow, crashes randomly and does not even have proper help section anymore.

Of course if MS pumps up Silverlight, it doesnt matter because Unity is for Macs only and if it cant get into Windows, it will remain fun but obscure plugin. Flash plugin comes with every Windows and obviously SL will be available too through some automated update, most people will not start to install another plugin from unknown source.

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Originally Posted by MikeMD

Doesn't have to be that way. They could just buy them and let the same Unity team continue as they have so far. All Adobe would need to do is marketing.

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That hasn't really happened with any of their prior 3D products. It's safe to assume that it will happen again.

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Softimage XSI was owned by Microsoft then Avid, now Autodesk. I don't know the details, but Softimage seems to have gone through MS and AVID years without the actual owner affecting much, if anything of the actual XSI app.

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And Microsoft also owned Creature House Expression. They basically "killed" it in it's present iterations. Quark owned MTropolis. And it was perhaps the best bet against Director. And they killed it. And there are others. Softimage is hard to alter mostly because it's so deeply entrenched in video game and Hollywood. I'd not want to change it.

Autodesk has shown me that they will not change much. Adobe has yet to do that in regards to 3D apps.

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In 17 days fusionfall will borne, it has everything to be the greatest browser multiplayer game ever, beating big time haboohotel, runescape and all the others.

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Cartoon network is the only thing that game has going for it.

Game itself is bad, bloated and buggy, then it trapped my mouse with no way to get out except ctrl+alt+delete.

What happens happens. I'll worry about it when it does. Right now flash still makes most sense.

Mike a few points that I really have to say.

1) Your obsession with pre-rendered graphics being 'better' than real time. Of course using pre-rendered graphics enables single elements to be rendered to a high quality than any system would allow you to do in real time, but if this always looked 'better' then don't you think the PS3 / 360 et al would use these techniques more? The lack of fluidity and real control that using pre-rendered graphics forces upon you, means that although separate assets may look of high quality the overall games themselves will often seem stuck together and unnatural looking / feeling.

2) Unless it is just simple trolling (which I guess it probably is), I do not understand your luddite-esque hatred of progress. You talk down to people who are excited by real time 3D in Flash, and then equally do the same to people who get excited about using new and exciting technologies for developing games.

3) I couldn't disagree with you more that because this is FlashKit we shouldn't discuss Wii / iphone game development. Flash gaming has had a massive influence on the wider world of games in the past five years or so, to a point where alot of the industry is now looking to see whether we, as flash game developers, are able to reproduce some of our many successes on new, emerging platforms (the iphone being the most obvious, but there are others too.)

Anyways that's my thoughts on the matter, and I only say this, as I really am interested in these matters, and am fairly bored of these discussions, without fail, turning into tedious "yes! no!" battles with you.

Chris Error x