Some 2advanced Criticism

I totally agree with what you are saying Freestyle. Wanted to get my two cents in as well ha ha. I graduated with a degree in graphic communications, and with graphic communications, whether print or digital, there are certain design rules to follow such as color theory, shape, form, typography, and so on. Eric and 2Advanced definitely succeed in this area. There is no doubt that they know what looks good, know how to use form and function, white space and all of that. But where I feel they lack is branching out in their design skills. If I were a client, and I shelled out God knows how much money to get an intro, and then I went online only to find five other intros that use the same motions, shapes (hexagons and skewed boxes), I personally would be a bit ticked off. If there is one thing on the web that makes a site stand out, it's ORIGINALITY. While it may look great, there is just not much originality in using the same shapes and motion patterns with different clients.
Not to compare, but one company that DOES take originality to the extreme especially lately is WDDG. If you stroll through their site portfolio, which last time I checked unfortunately was offline, you will find VERY different looking sites made by the same design team. Take http://www.altoids.com as a prime example of how well a good thought out design represented a company SO WELL. That wacky site could not be more perfect for them. Or check out the slick http://www.clubmakeup.net/ another site made by the same design firm yet fits that particular client so well. Each of their site concepts is SO different from the other. This to me is good design.
Eric is a great designer too, he has the technical knowhow and designs beautiful sites, but he does need to take a graphic leap of faith and come up with something besides miniscule text and hexagons.

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Originally posted by frreestyle
Just the other day one of my professor's told the class the client is NOT always right. The clients are not the designers, they must listen to the designer. They come to them with a problem. They need something that will help them sell - this is what the designer is trained for, the only thing the client can do is state their problem and give the designer research so that they can know the client better than they know themselves. It is the designer's responsibility to solve this problem in the best possible way and if he looks back on the finished product and compares it to the problem and it is not the best solution, then he has failed and he must do it over.

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Gee, your 'professor' is a genius. The only time you use that expression is when the client is wrong. If the client says the sky is green, you can point out your lifelong experience in looking at the sky and identifying its color and tell him in your professional opinion it's blue. If the client still says the sky is green, then, while you're being employed by that client, the sky is green. That's the meaning of the expression "the client is always right."

"They must listen to the designers."????

Clients can be complete idiots. A client can see crap made in 1998 and insist their site copy it. A client can have spent a total of 6 hours on the internet in his whole life and insist he knows what's best. Clients will tell you what colors to use, what size fonts, any number of things they are in no way qualified to tell you. You do your best but when it gets down to it, the client is always right. It is THEIR site. Either accept that or become a professor.

Building websites for yourself can be an artistic, idealistic venture. Building websites professionally is business and is therefore subject to an entirely different set of rules.

If you don't accept the effect of those rules, your judgement of somebody's professional portfolio is deeply flawed. You're a student. You're judging like you know everything. What you should have done from the beginning is act like a student, and asked why his portfolio seemed to be flawed to you. Not act like a master and pass judgement.

You know nothing about the environment in which a professional portfolio is built and how great an effect that environment can have on the finished product.


[Edited by moot on 03-12-2002 at 11:33 PM]

TO what purpose does this thread have? Complain about a company/person who has already been spitted on, tossed around, talked about, discussed about, and laughed about?
Seriously, to all that DO NOT like Eric Jordan's 2advanced sites, why are you bothering so much to hate it. If you don't like his line of work, his style forte, then leave it and move on to another subject.

Jesus, all you people who are saying he has no 'creativity' etc., bull**** are all comparing it to what you know as "design" and "creativity".

Its like asking what is the Best type of music?
No real answer.

but if a client thinks he knows so much about what he wants and what to do, then why is he going to a designer if he can make it himself?

-- this is not about people hating his site and loving it. this is about graphic design, and questioning something many people believe to be amazing. its simply an interesting debate. im not trying to be mean, i just want to have an unusual conversation, something different and out of the ordinary. something people dont normally see or talk about on these message boards. so please dont judge me as a bad person. i dont think im great or better than anyone --
[Edited by frreestyle on 03-13-2002 at 12:48 AM]

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Originally posted by n~finiti
TO what purpose does this thread have? Complain about a company/person who has already been spitted on, tossed around, talked about, discussed about, and laughed about?
Seriously, to all that DO NOT like Eric Jordan's 2advanced sites, why are you bothering so much to hate it. If you don't like his line of work, his style forte, then leave it and move on to another subject.

Jesus, all you people who are saying he has no 'creativity' etc., bull**** are all comparing it to what you know as "design" and "creativity".

Its like asking what is the Best type of music?
No real answer.

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it's more like asking which piece of music was 'produced' the best.

the point of this thread isn't about whether he is creative or not, not about anyone "hating" his work or his style. I certainly don't, but....

this thread is about the fundamentals of good design and whether or not eric jordan is applying them to his sites. I don't think that is a subjective question.

As far as i can see his 'style' or 'creativity' has little or nothing to with the question in hand...

when I first became involved in flash design, I threw away all that I knew about print and even web design, had the misfortune to view 2advanced work, read all the threads about how great thou art, and decided that what people wanted was 2a style,
So to be honest with you, I d/l his swf files and ran them through a couple programs to get the actionscripts ect, studied studied studied, finally after a few months, I could reproduce his style at will,
here's where the story gets good, I was bidding on a city project to produce a web presence for the entire community, boy I got so excited I was looking at a payday of like 25K!
put together a proposal, the site looked slick as candy from the year 2050
quick loading everything was a 10, lost the job to a competior that hadn't half my talent.

who do I blame?
well not 2a, eric does what he does and some companies pay him for it
not my competition
me, I was to blame

you know who cares how slick your flash animations are? only you, and other flash designers

do I like eric's work? - yes
but only from a designer's eye
not from real life application

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Originally posted by frreestyle
but if a client thinks he knows so much about what he wants and what to do, then why is he going to a designer if he can make it himself?

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????

You can't see a website and want one like it without knowing flash/javascript/dhtml/html?

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Originally posted by frreestyle
i would love to be there when eric jordan meets with these clients and tells them "i think im gonna throw in some hexagons and circles and squares because it looks interesting and people like it" this isnt helping the company out.

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People LOVE it and the clients LOVE it. I would love to be there the first time you try to tell a ceo, his marketing exec. and his top salesmen that what they want is all wrong. I would love to be there when you try to tell a simple, uneducated, small business owner that what he wants is all wrong.

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Originally posted by Mr Tyler Durden
I can see what you are saying but just beacuse a person sticks with one style doesn't mean that they can't make other types of work. Maybe he just enjoys working with the 'fast paced in your face ' style.

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I think, rather, his clients enjoy that.
The same could be said the Juxt's style is purely tribal..

Or Widegroups is this.. or someone's is that..

I have only read the review by Freestyle..since it would have taken me 128 days, 43 hours, 3 minutes and 4 seconds to be excact to read all of these replies.... and after spent 30 minutes reading the first message ,,i got kinda tired... but anyways..i kinda agree with freestyle ... or to summon it up to a short line...

"Design for the user, NOT YOURSELF"

Design for the user when designing for users. Design for yourself when making a portfolio page. Right?

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Originally posted by moot
I would love to be there the first time you try to tell a ceo, his marketing exec. and his top salesmen that what they want is all wrong. I would love to be there when you try to tell a simple, uneducated, small business owner that what he wants is all wrong.

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If the client comes to you with the "problem" and what he wants the web site to look like, or "how to solve it" then there won't be a purpose for the designer. When you say that yes there is, because he needs to know how to work flash, html, java, etc. -- well thats not what the designer is really there for. Those are extras. when you go to school for design, they dont teach you that. that would be a job for someone whos taught how to work a computer. If the designer is able to use various programs then good for him, he'll probably make more money. But if a client insists on what he wants his web site to look like and is really stubborn about it and makes the designer do it... then they are morons. They wont make as much business because they aren't trained in both communicating visually AND designing. Plus the designer will get a bad reputation because he was forced to make something terrible.

So no the client is not always right. And if he wants to create an award winning web site that will make him money, then he's going to have to listen to the designer, or save himself some money and make it himself.

freestyle, you make some really good points man. I couldn't agree more. I have worked with some really stubborn clients before. Yeah, sure, I get money from them, so I do what they want, but for heaven's sake, let me, the designer, give my input.

lol...you're amusing

Dude, you don't work. You don't know. You rag on his portfolio when you've never done professional work yourself. Now you're preaching stuff to me that I was thinking when you were in junior high.

You have a serious case of know-it-all disease. The first step to true knowledge is to realize you know nothing for sure. I'm a recovering know-it-all. Been sober for years now.

Get back to me when you've become this mythical designer of the promised lan you keep speaking of. Until then, you're all talk without having taken the first step of the walk.

All that you have shown me is that you have an amateurish nack for being a web site designer's portfolio critic. Plus a real issue with ever realizing or confessing you might be wrong.

Pardon moi if I'm being rude.

Hi guys,

I know this is a bit late in the thread so not too many people will read it, but i'll add my thoughts.

Freestyle, you are absolutely correct with what you said in this thread.. but there is one very big thing you are over looking (and so is everyone else).

You guys tend to look at 2Advanced as Design Website.. when it is actually a business. They are not here to impress us. They are hear to make business. First of all, i think Eric Jordan is pressured into doing what the client says.. and he is doing the right thing. It is not his job to tell the client what he thinks would be more productive. Why you say? Because, if the client's website does not get many hits.. or does not become popular, guess who they are going to blame?

Please realize that 2A is out there to make money... and so they do. It is as simple as that. We, as designers, tend to look at websites and such things alot more deeply than others. I remember when I started flashing for the first time, and i took a look at 2A's previous website. I WAS AMAZED! I was also amazed at every other website! Why? Because I didn't have the keen eye that I have today.. and that you people have today.

The target audience is not designers.. the targe audience is the general public. Personally, I don't even suggest using Flash as a means of makign a corporate website. I think its too complicated for the average Joe to go through. Anyone ever wonder why these huge companies do not use Flash? (i.e.: Sprint, Sony, Microsoft, Panasonic, etc etc etc). The reason is because the average Joe that doesn't know computers as well as we do will have trouble navigating the website!

Anyway, i slid off of my point. What I am trying to point out is something very simple: If you 2A makes money off of their websites then it doesn't matter what we, as designers, really think.

Life is money guys. Thats all its about. Eric Jordan just wants to get paid, get laid, watch some TV, and get some sleep. When you begin to WORK in web design rather than just play around making your own cool stuff.. everything changes.

I hope some of you understand what I mean. 2A is an extraordinary website, so are all of the portfolio websites. The point is not to send a message.. hell.. when i look at Apple's advertisement.. i dont' think "wow, thats a good slogan.. i'm gonna go buy an Apple computer today!"

No, i look at their product. The important thing is to get enough of my attention so that I could look into what types of products they really have.

Ok, me go to bed now.. its 4:18am :-( me krazy

I am a Web Designer, i have been using Flash for a while and have learnt the better you are at it than people they tend to critize you more often, even Jesus was criticized for his miracles. The point is 2A discovered a concept, which has evolved into a style.

Eric Jordan is very creative in my Perspective because he always pushed the limits, alot of you so-called graphic artist don't make that effort to push the limits and defy the laws of animation and graphics.

Who says he is using the same old Style, look at his new projects with Swift3d etc. The Hex windows are really things of the past to him, the only prob. is the imitators following him.

Word of advice from a designer's perpective: Do your own Design and leave talented people be!

Well said.

yes i agree that he's talented and creative, and people think he's so amazing because he can do such wonderful animation, but the problem with this is there is no purpose for the things he does. why do you need tiny text paragraphs so the people cant read them? what is its function, its purpose... he incorporates this into almost all of his designs, along with hexagons and constant flashing things i just dont see a reason for it... its clutter and "static" in the way of the message that needs to be conveyed... but i think im repeating myself

good design doesnt have to look pretty, so dont judge people as good designers just because it looks cool

an im not saying im better, nor im i saying that im a know it all i could be wrong, but i stand by my words strongly

if any of this makes sense, im a little out of it right now

I won't state my opinion, I'll just quote Eric Jordan, and perhaps this will answer many of your questions.


begin quote------------

"When they view motion graphics, our audience becomes involved in the essence of our message. To enhance that, we should always try to connect with the viewer on an emotional level, to stimulate them through the use of carefully planned sights, sounds and motions.

An effective piece of animation will take into consideration how people respond to movements, tones and atmospheres. Quick-moving text and fleeting bursts of random light might stimulate energy or power, while slow-fading text and the relaxed unveiling of objects may indicate serenity or patience.

An effective piece of animation becomes a powerful form of communication, primarily because it has been given a soul by the designer.


The success of a flash site depends on how well we as designers use our innovative animation techniques to express the client's message.

Although clear communication is the goal of all motion graphics, the style in which we present them is unique to each of us, based on our own stylistic impressions.

This style will ultimately set the tone for the delivery. Balancing delivery issues with design aims was, for me, an important consideration as I built 2advanced.
Although I had no client brief to satisfy with the project, I had a message of my own to communicate.

Too many of today's flash intros use extraneous text just for the sake of having something to animate. To avoid this, I wanted to portray my message through graphics and carefully calculated movements. I focused on the speed and easing of my elements to give an overall sensation of awe and relaxed discovery.

Simplicity is a way of conveying calculation and awareness; a whisper can convey more emotion than a scream. I feel that it's the minimalist elements of 2advanced that strengthen its message and make the delivery more genuine. This is where my voice comes through in design.

One of the most difficult aspects of becoming fluent in the language of motion is finding a unique voice. I feel that I've found mine because I was lucky to solidify my style in the early stages of my design career. That has helped me to build a successful portfolio of well-branded projects."

end quote-----------------




I suggest reading his section in Masters of Flash, you may find your answer there.

he makes a lot of interesting points and a lot of those points were talked about in this thread. I agree with a lot of his points about style and communicating by connecting with the viewer with the fast paced animations. this will definitely get their attention.

But i still think he doesnt know the difference bewtween style and voice, because you can swtich the company names on the intros for webbasis and jalva, and you would still get the same effect and feeling. There is no difference to distinguish one as a digital media company and the other as a wireless concergence of voice and data???

and you have to understand where im coming from on this one, i think it has a lot to do with him not using client (design) briefs. because without briefs you wont understand the company's voice so everything will turn out like he says: "a message of his own to communicate"

i dont think thats a very good idea because every intro will be his own message coming from the SAME voice

you have to at least agree with me on that one... anyway this thread is ridiculously long now, but i enjoyed this debate

I agree that his work is branded and everything in his portfolio stems from his personal, methodical and "i dub thee Eric Jordan" design tree.

However, you cannot say that his design lacks communication or that he doesn't know communication design. His work communicates with a lot of different people on a lot of different levels. Just because his work doesn't communicate to you doesn't mean his work doesn't communicate effectively.

When somebody speaks in a foreign tongue, do you assume that they are poor communicators? Perhaps you can't understand the foreigner, but others who speak his or her language can.

In the same regard, Eric's work is a language. A language of motion design and communication. Some people speak it, some don't.

And with the addition of the Art Director from Juxt Interactive now on board, I'm sure we'll start to see some more variety.
[Edited by Josiah on 03-18-2002 at 04:02 AM]

All these messages are giving eric jordan too much credits... i guess he is laughing his ass of reading this... dont admire... do better !

How can you ever give someone who sets trends too much credit? I would think that that is impossible.

I wouldn't agree that he set any trend. Maybe for flashkit users and for internet browsing web designers.

Cool design he has, but too complex for users and too static for me :)

Not a trend? I have seen more 2A rips in the FK forums than I can possibly count. Many people see this as a bad thing, but I do not. There was one rip, I believe of a PHP forum site, that was just totally illegal and inexcusable. But, for the most part, 2A has set more of a trend than any other site.

2advanced has never been considered seriously on the design front - they're just too flashy, gives u a headache to look at and must be a headache to put together, has got nothing to do with graphics, IMHO you'd all be better off keeping in touch with magazines like http://www.shift.jp.org/ they focus on creativity/design rather than gimmicky bells/whistles. Just my opinion.

and you are entitled to your opinion. But anyone who says that 2A has never been taken seriously on the design front is just mistaken. The fact remains that people are still making similar sites to this day. People continue to bash its lack of usability and practicality, but I couldn't disagree with those people more. Look at it. It is a wonder! The navigation and presentation is really impressive. One just can't argue with that. Nevertheless, as you said, each is entitled to his own opinion. That's the beauty of free speech. Amen for that! :D

electrolux3 - quick note, your site is beautiful!



I for one cant wait till the day 2advanced.com is nothing but a dust bowl of what was once just a memory. I mean oh my god – there are so many other designs worthy of the attention that 2advanced is getting. It’s a never-ending story of carbon copies, rip offs, wanna-bees, and comparisons. Blah blah blah. There is so much on the web that is wonderful and creative – I personally would love to see 2advanced change its looks completely. My best guess, it was all just perfect timing on his part but his portfolio yields of mini-2advanced copies and no real versatility. (Could he ever pull this off again?) All the sites are commonly linked with elements of the mother ship. Doesn’t anyone else see this? Not that its bad, its just not worthy of this rock star hype! I’m sorry, but I’m just so very tired of hearing about 2advanced.com this and 2advanced.com that.

(**Sigh**)

With that said

Thank you for listening

Member of the artists and designers against arrows campaign


Just my thoughts

Thom


[Edited by tdcollins on 03-19-2002 at 03:21 PM]

but I think you'll find I'm not mistaken, have Graphis International, Creative Review, D&AD etc etc or any serious authority in the world of design ever even mentioned 2A's work? no. it's really only techy kids that like their stuff, I expect that statement will wind some up but its still just my opinion:)

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Originally posted by electrolux3
but I think you'll find I'm not mistaken, have Graphis International, Creative Review, D&AD etc etc or any serious authority in the world of design ever even mentioned 2A's work? no. it's really only techy kids that like their stuff, I expect that statement will wind some up but its still just my opinion:)

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You're right, they have not been mentioned in any serious capacity. But, how is it then that so many people rip them off or at least attempt to?

I tried to load your site to check it out but i got no response from the server. Let me know when it is back up. Thanks. :D

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Originally posted by electrolux3

I tried to load your site to check it out but i got no response from the server. Let me know when it is back up. Thanks. :D

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it works fine for me, and very good it is too.

Ah, ok, it works now. It just took some time. Very cool! :)

so many people ripping them off is a fault with people, its not easy being original and not being influenced by anything, thats why something that is original always stands out. I can't understand why somebody would put effort into emulating somebody elses work.

PS thanks for the comments on my site - its still work in progress but cheers!

I understand your view now. But you are admitting that 2A was original. So you give it some respect, right?

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Originally posted by tdcollins

Member of the artist and designers against arrows campaign

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That's great. I thought I was the only one that despised the 45degree arrows. Sign me up!