[Resolved] [Resolved] [Resolved] [Resolved] [Resolved] SWITCHING TO MX

I've read the whole thread here, and it seems that all have valid points, but some are just more valid than others.

For example:

It would be supreme idiocy for E-Bay or Amazon (or any other huge database-driven site) to switch to Flash. I'm sorry, but our favorite product (has up until now) been lousy at database interaction. End of story. To that, why bother even adding Flash animations (necessitating a plug-in download) or any content for that matter to sites of this nature, when 99% of your site is HTML based.

Forcing the Flash 6 plug-in (and MX content) 'down peoples' throats' is a less than lucent way of responding to a serious question. So far, reviews and experience have led me to believe that there are not a whole bunch of feature improvements to FMX - rather, it's Mm looking to bring the Flash user interface into line with the other Mm products. If that is all we're talking about (of course there's more, but is it really that important?)why not stick with higher penetration Flash 5 content.

And finally...
I don't like to say it, but it seems to be true - people are generally dim - a bit slow on the uptake. Especially when it comes to things 'computer'. All developers need to give them a fighting chance, so although I would like to jump right in and offer the latest, it's just making sense to stick with what's already installed, make content compatible for slower machines/modems, let people easily jump right into sites. I think that if a serious designer sticks with that for now (especially with high traffic sites), their prudence will pay benefits later when they are still in business to offer high end, large bandwidth, Flash MX sites.
Cheers

it comes down to one core factor alone (other than client whimsey of course).

does the value a new version of flash provide to the converted/convertable outweigh the loss of the unconverted/unconvertable.

what i mean by this is that if (and a whole lot of marketing can go into finding this out) the potential-visitors you are likely to loose are not the sort of people you're after then use the plug-in!

in truth who can really say that some-one who won't download f6 - is not gonna wanna buy nike trainers or a burton board or what-ever - who but marketing people!!! this is what they're there for. ;)

mart

LISTEN
it is very very simple
if your clients are boring like scott manning's, then you are never gonna persuade them to use flash MX, because these people value money and "business" and statistics and spreadsheets over fun. They are so dead against Flash they even tell me to use DHTML/JavaScript instead, and won't listen when i tell them that this is worse for compatibility than flash. So they are obviously idiots who don't want to enjoy life and i'd rather not work with those kinda people. No wonder scott manning is so paranoid about copyright, he has to deal with horrible people.

ALSO
Most people place a very low value on emotive design, especially on the internet. "Computers are just for information, people don't want to download a plugin and crash their PC and get a virus etc etc etc"
And 97% of flash designers can't do the visual part of Flash design anyway (just look at scottmanning.com - all text and bombardment of info, most of it irrelevant and dull, terrible logo, no loading bar on the preloader, 3D animation that took over 20 seconds to load but didn't last more than 3, terrible typography, the list goes on)

So that means that Flash gets a bad name, and "marketing experts" tell you not to use it.

But sometimes in some of the previous posts the truth comes out - if people can't be bothered to download a plugin, then maybe they also can't be bothered to read your reams of text, so what's the point in allowing them "access"

Summary:
You have a choice over what kind of work you do, I opt for fun and expressive work with people i trust, other people try and get their clients AS MANY HITS AS POSSIBLE OF WHATEVER QUALITY OR RELEVANCE so they can be bigshots in a lonely world.

Chill out! Forget clients! Make friends!
Go plant a tree at http://splinterproducts.com

Dumbo note: click the logo to get a seed.


[Edited by marky176 on 03-27-2002 at 08:31 AM]

nice rant mark, think anyones listening?

Getting your point across by slagging others is immature and to tell you the truth, a bit sad.

I could go on and on ranting about whats wrong with your site but I wouldn't because that would be pathetic.

If you've got nothing decent to say, don't say anything.
[Edited by RazoRmedia on 03-27-2002 at 08:38 AM]

there's lots of decent stuff in there if you read it properly. I criticise scottmanning.com seriously. His typography is terrible, a point which turns users away as much as plugins.

I also make the point that if you WANT to do flash MX it's a matter of finding the right clients.

Scott is welcome to stick to html (as we did for http://pointfusion.com ) but there are other people on these boards that shouldn't be compelled to do boring work if they can be inspired to do creative work instead.

Please do criticise our site, that is why i am here on a discussion board, not at a tea party.

Different strokes for different folks, that is all.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by marky176
Please do criticise our site, that is why i am here on a discussion board, not at a tea party.

Different strokes for different folks, that is all.

---

critisizing is fine but would you speak to a client like that?

If you didn't like aspects of a site, there is a way to inform someone without resorting to a mild form of abuse like you have done. You come across as a self righteous 'know it all' who doesn't really care about very much apart from their own little world. If I wear you, stick to what your good at and go and join a chatroom and flame some of the saddo's in there.

i find listening to the shouldn'ts beyond common sense rarely gets anyone anywhere!

http://www.scottmanning.com/

That's not being a self-righteous know-it-all?

I am trying to say there are 2 worlds, creative and non-creative. Flash MX is only good for one of those worlds. People can choose which world to work in.

Whereas Scott seems content to write articles and articles about how everybody else should run their business.

I am just sticking up for the guys that might be aspiring to get away from talking to clients. It is actually possible to build up business other ways, with people who respect your opinions without questioning them to death.

We don't all work for agencies or embattled small businesses churning out site after site, this is a diverse community. Allow opinions from all sides and we all benefit.

PLEASE criticise our site, i am still waiting for you to stop attacking my posts and start saying something constructive yourself. DISCUSSION, you know?

And scott feel free to post anything you like about typography.

in reply to lesli_felix comment to hellsbellsboy about comparing a free 300k download to a $1200 computer - he wasn't do you think by any chance he might of been joking???? man, people are forgetting their sense of humour.

marky176 has nocrapchurch done something to really P you off? i agree with you there are things that are, shall we say, perhaps not quite right about the site, BUT, it is always very easy to critise... to be honest, i don't think there is a site in the world which you could not find some criticism about.

I suppose it comes down to "different horses for different courses!" and that is all you can say - we are all right in our own ways, and i doubt very much if we will change our opinion at this moment in time - so i say, let sleeping dogs lie (i like to speak in metephors, it normally loses people fastest i find!)

as marky176, personally i prefer to stick to working with clients with more imagination, BUT, i also think it is very possible to sell what you want to the most boring of clients, and in many ways that is more of a challenge.. just depends on how much energy you have that day i suppose!

Well, i am with hellsbellsboy - sod 'em all, let's force everyone to get a big fat HAL or sgi's and a bit fat PON to the back doors!! (...errr why has business suddenly gone quiet? i can't work it our!)

I am trying to say there are 2 worlds, creative and non-creative. Flash MX is only good for one of those worlds. People can choose which world to work in.

true, designers can sit there doing corporate sites or they can find more adventurous clients and really go to town and build a 3d actionscripting extravaganza, funnily enough I have found very few clients like this.

Whereas Scott seems content to write articles and articles about how everybody else should run their business.
He writes articles giving advice, helping others, you don't have to read these articles, you don't have to visit his site. He advises on how to run a business, it is a great help to a number of people on this site, maybe not to you though seeing as you know it all already. As before, don't read it of you don't want

I am just sticking up for the guys that might be aspiring to get away from talking to clients. It is actually possible to build up business other ways, with people who respect your opinions without questioning them to death.
fair enough, scott nor myself doesn't put anyone down like that, you're sticking up for yourself really, no-one else.

We don't all work for agencies or embattled small businesses churning out site after site, this is a diverse community. Allow opinions from all sides and we all benefit.
I have allowed your opinions, I disagree with the way you put your information across but some of your points about mx and the industry are valid. You came here using scottmanning.com as a site to abuse, to say whats wrong. Scottmanning.com is a good site, very different from yours but the web is about diversity isn't it? We could all create a kickass flash site but many don't want to, many prefer the informative approach rather than the flash / design approach

PLEASE criticise our site, i am still waiting for you to stop attacking my posts and start saying something constructive yourself. DISCUSSION, you know?
I know, its clear you don't. I wouldn't have give you the satisfaction but as you insist:

Its bland, I planted a tree, I left. too grey and dull for my tastes.

I have no arguments with your discussion, that is welcomed. Your attitude is not.

thankyou for your comments.

i agree i may have gone in a bit strong on scottmanning.com, but i will always get excited about typography. It is essential to ALL design with letters in it, whether "funky" or "dull". There are many people that will defend information over art, and they are normally correct in their fields. But they still need typography.
And we all need art somewhere.

off topic. except that Flash is the BEST way to deliver readable, feelable information. Flash is like animated typography and very few people understand that, leading to designs that people turn away from or misunderstand or never return to.

HTML gives you a tenth of the control. Now with MX, you have even MORE control, so if you need to excite your audience, use it. If you don't, then don't.

By the way, if you had taken the time to click a few links on splinterproducts.com you would have found sites in HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP, Flash 3 and Flash 5, and combinations of all.

I was hoping this would have made you realise where i'm coming from. Both Scott and I can exist on the same planet, but people reading this can now decide kind of design house they'd rather work for, and pick the one that suits their aspirations best.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by phonytony
in reply to lesli_felix comment to hellsbellsboy about comparing a free 300k download to a $1200 computer - he wasn't. Do you think by any chance he might of been joking????

---

When he said that we should force everybody to upgrade to a 2ghz machine, I thought he was being sarcastic, and using that as a comparison to forcing people to download a new plugin. Obviously, this would have been a silly comparison to make.

If he wasn't being sarcastic, then his statement was even more halfwitted. Of course he could have just been trolling...

----To Marky176-----

Are you suggesting that using your own name for your website is being a self-righteous know-it-all?

Oh please......

You could also say that hiding your name behind a cool sounding domain such as splinterproducts is pretentious and unnecessary.

Scott's site is a great resource. I don't go for that sort of design myself, but it's a personal opinion. He does what he does very well, and serves a particular kind of client.

Splinterproducts, interesting site. You should have it so that if you plant a tree and wait a while, it starts growing leaves and daffodils pop-up out of the ground. Bunny-rabbits hopping about etc. etc.

As it claims to be a limited company, I did a search at companies house. Is it the same Splinterproducts registered at west wickham? That's spooky, I live in west wickham. Only this is the one in Cambridgeshire, not Kent, and has a population of only 350...

Clothes and video production? Weird combination! I'm rambling now, time to get on with my work.........

yo lesli_felix that's more like it.
i wasn't saying using his name was wrong (i shall never forget his name after this!) i was saying he seems to have it all figured out if you read the site. I am skeptical of people that have it all figured out enough to publish articles for publicity. I stick to occasional "rants"(!), i know my place. one day far in the future i may write a book, but not now while i'm experimenting.

btw yes, we are splinterproducts ltd west wickham, our "claim" is correct. that is why it's not named after me, there's more than just me in it.

spooky coincidence.

stop chatting and get back to work. :)

marky176,

as I now see you are capable of making decent posts, I will reply properly. I did indeed see some of the sites listed on yours, very interesting. Like the little geezer doing beatbox, nice.

Your previous posts don't interest me, the way you put across your information makes me tend to ignore your points as it will to others in this community, now I know you are capable of conversation, I will participate.

You, Scott Manning, Me, every else, etc all are different which is what makes the web fantastic. I can be browsing yugop.com which is a personal favourite site of mine, I can check out viz and the onion for humour, look at presstube and designiskinky for design, I can browse scotts site and get information on contracts etc which I can then choose whether or not to use.

Heres an example of why both types of work are important to me, here is 2 sites of mine (flame away, I'm thick skinned)

http://www.oceanpoint.co.uk - a great site to develop, 3d, flash, actionscript. great to work on, quite well paid (one off fee)

http://www.ccetsw.org.uk - terrible site, not done by me but I have the maintenance contract. Its sheer hell but it pays £500 a month for updates which are relatively easy.

now, you will be drawn more to the oceanpoint site because it is visually more stimulating, yet I have made more money on ccetsw than the others.

exiting work is always welcomed over dull work but its often the corporate 'churn outs' which keep the wolf from the door, to live another day in this industry waiting for the next 'good' client.

Anyway, enough said, apologise to mr manning and I won't ban you ;)

oh, and jakob nielsen hates you but loves scott

very sorry scott, your typography is still terrible, but i should also emphasise that your site serves its purpose well in some areas too.

razor, i aint gonna diss your work because i only have a modem :( so i left after about a minute! but it looks like it's 100% corporate LAN so that's not a diss. nice water. clean nav. that CMSCSSEECMC looks like a proper nightmare, and just the kind of thing i'm talking about avoiding, my sympathies man in your struggle against the unknowing.

and stop saying FLAME, i was very specific, not just ranting wildly! ranting maybe, but not wildly.

Back to topic.
I say if you're waiting around for the industry to use MX before you do then you're asking for a longer wait. You ARE the industry.
We do a lot of work in DV, which I can now put into Flash, bypassing the need for real player and all that. So i am ECSTATIC about flash MX and when my clients are offered video content they love it. Jpg loading? YEEESSSSS!!! that will help our CMS no end.

so whoopee! Here we go with flash MX! If they don't want it, I don't know if I really want to "go through hell" to "stay afloat".

I leave you with this:
What are the chances of someone who WANTS flash coming across YOUR site before anyone else's? Very small. So if people want flash, they will download and play the cool beatboxing thingy, they get rewarded, they probably had it before they found you anyway, their friends will help them etc.

However, some people don't want flash. So what? Some people don't buy Madonna albums but she does OK. You don't need to appeal to EVERYONE, just effectively appeal to ENOUGH loyal people. There's more to the bottom line than hit-counting.

Jakob who?

I am almost certain MM is shi.ing about those numbers, i think that is their policy so that everyone thinks that player is highly distributed. But some real data are for sure less then 90% i bet even less than that, it is very often case that people at work on their computers dont have player. I dont know how do they get their data but it cannot be true for the whole world. I think they should promote somehow theri player, like sony is doing for PS2 with good games, because that is what sells console, not the power of console or feutures, just games, so what MM needs is some sites which would be global, that everyone knows and comes and that are in flash, or great, free and fast games so people would know that they need new player.

Quote:

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Originally posted by lesli_felix
"Macromedia CEO Rob Burgess estimates there will be
100,000,000 Flash 6-enabled browsers within 30 days."

This is based on flash-5 downoads of 3,000,000 a day, when it was released.

Of course, Macromedia could be B.S.ing for their own benefit, but there's no harm in quoting them to a client. ;)

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Quote:

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Originally posted by RazoRmedia
marky176,

You, Scott Manning, Me, every else, etc all are different

http://www.ccetsw.org.uk - terrible site, not done by me but I have the maintenance contract. Its sheer hell but it pays £500 a month for updates which are relatively easy.

---

It just make me sad that you get so much money for that job and i have to woek here and make great site in flash or html with ASP databases and get half of that amount, world isnt fair, have nothing against you, problem is country where i live (Croatia) and poor economy so firms dont have money for web pages...so please apriciate your luck :-))

Quote:

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Originally posted by marky176

http://www.scottmanning.com/


That's not being a self-righteous know-it-all?

---

Have you read your own posts from the same perspective?


As a mod, Scott, I'm sure is trying to exercise a certain amount of restraint. I myself would have a hard time with it, considering your approach. You're instigating a little too much, please chill a bit.
[Edited by jstarkey on 03-27-2002 at 04:26 PM]

hey, i never complained about being called a know-it-all, that's fine by me.
I just couldn't understand why the same slur wasn't slung at scott that's all.

and... wait a minute... i never criticised ANYONE'S personality, only their work. But people seem to prefer to attack MY personality instead of commenting on my work or joining in any kind of discussion.

Sheesh. If you want self righteous, check out the moderators on this one, eh? Bet they're all human perfection.

hey, i never complained about being called a know-it-all, that's fine by me.
I just couldn't understand why the same slur wasn't slung at scott that's all.
Scott has not been flaming anyone, calling their work crap etc

and... wait a minute... i never criticised ANYONE'S personality, only their work.

Quote:

---

http://www.scottmanning.com/

That's not being a self-righteous know-it-all?

---

really? I believe those were your words

But people seem to prefer to attack MY personality instead of commenting on my work or joining in any kind of discussion.

we are not attacking your personality, just the way you are trying to incite a reaction from Scott and other moderators. You don't like scott mannings site? fine, keep it to yourself or explain why you don't like it in a constructive way, your attitude stinks. If you want people to be brutally honest about your site, simply ask them, trying to incite them into commenting on it will simply make them ignore it and not even bother checking. You are not discussing, you are 'flaming' (yes, I use that word again) and posting about a moderator in a derogatory way.

Sheesh. If you want self righteous, check out the moderators on this one, eh? Bet they're all human perfection.

No, never claim to be either, if you bother reading other posts in this forum, you'll see we ask for advice too (check my footer link). We're not experts here to shell out answers, we're people who try to keep a lively community together by promoting healthy debate. You have shown you have common sense and can post decent posts yet you also seem to always come back to abuse.

This is a discussion board, I couldn't care less if you love Scotts work or hate scotts work, your attitude and tone leaves loads to be desired. Disagreeing and debating with people is fine, a lot of my views about poaching clients differ greatly from Scotts and Jays yet we have the ability to debate in a healthy manner, not resort to immature verbal abuse.

If you don't like the mods on this board, theres plenty more flash forums, feel free to leave at anytime, we have a healthy community here and if you can't contribute, don't bother posting.

I'd close this thread but I wouldn't give you the satisfaction of declaring that we do not promote free speech etc etc.

Just grow up Marky, you're not going to get a reaction here.
[Edited by RazoRmedia on 03-28-2002 at 06:32 AM]

many of the combatants here present have themselves said that if one reads something on-line they disagree with to leave it well-alone, in which case may i suggest that.

MOD PLEASE LOCK - THIS THREAD HAS DESCENDED INTO A BRAWL! ;)

you "wouldn't give me the satisfaction"?

keep it. your attitude stinks too. you think i care about what you do on this forum? i just wanted to talk about how flash gives you the opportunity to do good typography, and scottmanning.com and many others waste this opportunity.

you talk so little about flash design.
no wonder people think flash is ****.

love it.

i come to a discussion board and the moderator tells me "i'm not going to get a reaction" about twelve times.

thread closed