Your experience using video....

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Originally posted by Jonathan_B
Whiterabbit,
You wrote: "Our income is mainly derived from us using our product"
So my question to you is, if I wanted to hire you to use your book to create your custom SV for me, how much would it cost and how long would it take?

jb

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We used to specify a 24 hour turn around. Prices started at $50 for a movie trailer. It takes about 15-20 minutes to do a movie trailer. Now we have grown, we usually turn down outside encoding work as we are filming most the time and encoding for our own clients.

Example: For the next 5-6 days we are filming Boxing, Kickboxing, Yoga, Wrestling etc for South Florida Boxing. The clips will be encoded by us as on-demand Flash simulated video and streamed from their web site which we are in the process of building as well. Clips will last between 2-3 minutes each.

What do we charge to film, $500-$5000 per day for mini-dv and DV, it depends, but thats production costs not encoding. For this job its all been rolled up into a lump sum including site construction so I dont have a breakdown of what the actual encoding estimate is.

JP.

great what you guys are tryna do, think you will be doing us all a great service. only one question so far -

is avi very standard for people encoding?
i guess it must be for the pc, but i dont think many mac
users would ever start encoding from an .avi file?

also, just as a note, i read alot of the video related
posts, and there seems to b repeated *****'n btween some kids re: their products. i aint naming names, but often as a reader, it gets kinda tedious tryna see past the ego to find the info, maybe its just the nature of the business. no personal offence intend. and i do think that this idea is great, and way to try and tacking that issue professionally.
thanks
ss

Well, the fact that we've got everybody here ready to duke it out for the benefit off all is what I was after in the first place.

The reason I started this thread with the caveat is directly related to my experience in the Projector forum. Every time someone had a question about how to do something difficult (usually making a Mac autostart CD) some software rep would pipe in with the solution before anyone else could lend advice - "buy their software and all your headaches will go away!" The moderators try to keep it in check, but what 'cha gonna do? These guys are on the boards constantly.

In the projector experience, I ended up buying Toast Titanium and figuring it out for myself. I must have done something right, because the guy at the Mpls's biggest dup house said he had given up and was still using Toast 3! I showed him how I did it and I posted my method for creating a Flash/Audio CD on the Mac FAQ (if your interested). http://board.flashkit.com/board/show...hreadid=231315

This is our forum to share experience and help each other save time and duplicated effort, not to promote software as a solution. We just have to keep everyone in check. So far, so good.

5G
[Edited by Wheels on 08-21-2002 at 11:02 PM]

Quote:

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Originally posted by secondsign
great what you guys are tryna do, think you will be doing us all a great service. only one question so far -

is avi very standard for people encoding?
i guess it must be for the pc, but i dont think many mac
users would ever start encoding from an .avi file?

also, just as a note, i read alot of the video related
posts, and there seems to b repeated *****'n btween some kids re: their products. i aint naming names, but often as a reader, it gets kinda tedious tryna see past the ego to find the info, maybe its just the nature of the business. no personal offence intend. and i do think that this idea is great, and way to try and tacking that issue professionally.
thanks
ss

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Hey secondsign,

Im on Mac too. I cant remember how I came by it. maybe it comes with the newer quicitime but I have the avi to qt utility. At least as many people are working with .avi's (PC's version of the .mov) so might as well be able to handle both formats.

As for the video comparison. Lets hope it leads to a clearer understanding of all the options and considerations for streaming video involving Flash.

I have a suggestion for the sample clip. The new Lord of the rings trailer is up on the QuickTime site and low and behold - they are encouraging downloads in three size formats and have the files packaged in both .sit and .zip. Sounds like we have a good candidate and a free host.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/newline/the_two_towers/

So far my experience with Sorenson MX has proved that video already compressed with Sorenson 3 (like the trailers) is just as good as starting with a huge uncompressed file. One nice thing about the trailers, is that the sound is at 44.1kHz 16? or 32 stereo - so we have a good sound track to start with as well.

What do you all think? Any objections?

I've been in touch with John (the main mod here at Flashkit) and have requested a sticky FAQ and a sticky test thread for our little experiment.

5G

The higher the quality the source the more you can get away with (double compressing). For the web its usually not a big deal and I think its only important that we start from the same source.

This dark and misty type scenery always breaks down pretty fast. Its already got alot of noise in it but like I said as long as we start from the same source, Im okay with it.

I downloaded the full screen version and the medium version. maybe I will check out the large version too. Really wish we could start with some better source so we could also compare (just in a passing way to the existing trailers).

Also I was not able to open the audio, they might have it protected or my software might not be current enough, any ideas.

Cant wait to see the movie, last one was great.

cheers

JP

I think it would make sense to have another source that is basically raw, but I think the fast action and dark colors of the Rings movie will make for a good test.

I didn't take a look at the sound track, but they usually use QSound? .mp3 on the trailers. I ran it through Spark Pro and had no problems. May be a case of not having the codec on any of your machine, but then again - if you have QT you should be alright.

I believe the only difference between the full screen and large is the QT full skin, otherwise the screen size is the same. Probably just as well for us to use the large format for testing, the Full screen will have image tracks and sprites that we don't want. Ah, that may be the problem - probably a sound track with a control sprite, that would be a seperate layer in QT.

BTW Jorge, I recieved your CD today. I hope to get some time later this week to try it out. We did a bunch of testing with Squeeze over the weekend, can't wait to try Manta.

Hey again,

okay sounds good, I wanted to invite the DV community to check this out and I dont want to have to make the excuse that we started with already compressed footage, you would be surprised how attuned to detail those guys are.

I might need somebody to send me an aif if I cant get it open. As soon as I can get around to it I am going to start laying out a summary of all the pros and cons to SV as per my experience.

Is the Digital animation disqualified then? Its about a 400MB file but I can burn it on cd and send it to whoever is encoding.
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On a different tune: Apparently interest in Flash video is surging. Alot of people have been asking me about automated features- pre loaders, media players with SV. To answer that -

Just like the downloadable movies and tutorials here on Flash kit you can create templates to use over and over. We have a few templates we include but our software has very little to do with automated solutions. It just makes it possible for the Flash Player to play back without bogging down the computer through ram consumption.

I just installed a Flash SV media player with typical controls that ties into php/mysql backend. All the video info is stored in the database...such as file size play time pre-load etc (the variables to calculate buffer time) as well as the video name. Now when ever a new video is added all we have to do is plug in those values via a browser interface. The links are generated automatically and the video loads dynamically into a template media player along with whatever other variables you want.

It took very little code to do this and I dont consider myself an expert programer or action scripter.

I hope that will answer some questions and if you emailed me and I didnt get back, sorry we are really swamped right now and I get about 200 emails every day.

Onward Ho!

Perhaps we should find other sources as well in other formats such as Mpeg, Windows Media, Mpeg4 AVIs, etc. People are using all types of video on the web, so we should make the test representative.

jb
http://www.wildform.com

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jonathan_B
Consequently, we suggest not creating files larger than 25MB for use on a CD Rom.

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Why the limit? Is this just a Mac issue?

Whats happening with the codec comparison?

Streaming media magazine has told me they will feature the results.

Mudgy wrote: "Why the limit? Is this just a Mac issue?"

No, it's not just a Mac issue. It's a Flash issue. Because of the way Flash works, when you have a SWF on CD, the Flash player loads the entire file into memory before it starts to play. So, depending on your computer's speed, ram, CD player speed, etc. your performance may vary.

jb
http://www.wildform.com/flix

Quote:

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Originally posted by whiterabbit
Whats happening with the codec comparison?

Streaming media magazine has told me they will feature the results.

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Well my original proposal was to merely compare the different conversion programs using a couple of test files - Sorenson, Manta, Swideo, and Flix as well as any others.

The comparisons of codecs specifically was proposed by you Jorge. I don't have the technical expertise to construct or conduct such a test as I am merely a Flash technician. I suggest that if you would like to go forward with the test that those who are interested and qualified take up the task. I will lend any support that I can as a moderator of this forum.

I would still like to see a software comparison.

5G

We have been working extensively with Video in Flash MX.

I'm a 'bit lost as to the comparison test you want to conduct here. As I read it, you want to use the Lord of the Rings trailer as a test video. Then you want to imbed it into Flash, natively. Is that correct?

Then post our best compression version here for comparison along with how it was done?

Okay, I will go ahead and set up an independent comparison on my site along with a faq and if anybody thinks they can do better we can substitute that version over mine. That should be pretty fair.

If I am going to have to do it the focus is going to be on quality and file size like every other codec comparison thats ever been done. People who are more interested in automated solutions can listen to the propaganda of each software dealer, if your encoding video for a client thats all that is going to matter to them anyway.

Once I am done I will post the link, otherwise this thing is not going to get done and I really want to see myself what the outcome is going to be.

Cheers,

Jorge
Manta Productions.com, inc.

Quote:

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Originally posted by mudgy
We have been working extensively with Video in Flash MX.

I'm a 'bit lost as to the comparison test you want to conduct here. As I read it, you want to use the Lord of the Rings trailer as a test video. Then you want to imbed it into Flash, natively. Is that correct?

Then post our best compression version here for comparison along with how it was done?

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Perhaps you would like to encode the LOTR in MX version then? The video would be viewable with flash player 6 thats the only requirement.

Sure...

So... best video and audio at smallest file size. Video size 480x210.

We're on it.

Cool,

mudgy can I send you a CD with some uncompressed footage of another video (3D effect video) as well. We have no problem working with the LOTR but I want to see results of video where we are working with just lightly compressed source as well, (its a 400MB file play time is about 2 min).

let me know where to send it if thats cool with you. You can also contact me off list at [email protected]

I went to download the Lord of the Rings trailer, but there were a couple of issues: 1. the audio is protected Quicktime audio and won't convert, 2. the video is presented in a matte with LOTR banners on top and bottom.

Perhaps we need to select other video(s). Using unauthorized film studios copyrighted material is also not necessarily the best way to set up a test.

jb
http://www.wildform.com

Hey guys....

I had no problem working with the QT file. I used the large video (480x210), not the full screen. Of course there is the issue with double compression, but it still looks really good. So far I have it down to 6M. Still working on it.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jonathan_B
the video is presented in a matte with LOTR banners on top and bottom.

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Jonathon, what is "matte with LOTR"? Did you download the Full screen or Large?

I didn't have any problems converting the audio, if you used the full screen, it may have been compiled in Live Stage Pro.

I think we should take your comment on the copyrighted material into consideration, although I don't feel it's much of an issue since we are only using it to test and not to redistribute and is sure is a handy way to get everyone involved. I don't know, anyone else have on opinion?

I don't think the double compression is much of an issue, I've seen no difference in quality between precompressed and raw. It could be an issue with some software I guess, it would be good to test both. As a developer, I often recieve files exported from After Effects, or Sorenson 3 QT .mov's via FTP. It's just easier to transfer smaller files - so it often comes down to precompressed. I'm sure this is an issue for many developers.

So I'll round up the testing on the Flash to video software side, I can currently provide testing with Sorenson Spark Pro, Manta, and Flix. Here's the start of a list, can anyone think of other's we should be including:

Flash to video software solutions:

1. Flix: http://www.wildform.com
2. Sorenson MX (Spark Pro): http://www.sorenson.com
3. Swideo: http://www.swideo.com
4. Manta Producions: http://www.mantaproductions.com/
5. Flash MX (Spark): http://www.macromedia.com

We'll need a standardized log sheet for the settings and such. PDF anyone?

I've talked to John about a sticky FAQ and another sticky thread for the video test. It's on the way. Maybe we need another for the Codec test. Either way, we'll get a couple of new threads going and put this one to rest.

5G

I received the following in an email from Sorenson:

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Sorenson Media is pleased to announce the official release of the Sorenson Squeeze 2.02 update for both Mac and Windows.

Current owners of any version (except the trial) of Sorenson Squeeze are entitled to this free update by downloading it from our Web site. The update can be found in the Support/Download section of the Web site and does require you to register on the site before downloading the update. There is no cost to register.

This update does require that you have a purchased version of Squeeze 2.0 already installed on your system.

Some of the new features of Squeeze 2.02 include:

- Stitching support for SWF file export (available only with Sorenson Squeeze for Macromedia Flash MX)
- Support for Microsoft AVI source files
- Improved DV Capture
- Improved video filter preview
- Keyframe interval control

Download free Squeeze 2.02 upgrade
http://www.sorenson.com/content.php?cats=5/17

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Not sure if they fixed the 2055 frame limitation, though.

I think it was decided in this thread that the product/process comparison would focus on quality of compression, rather than product features (which appear to comprise the bulk of this upgrade), but for the sake of this test it would probably be best to use the the most current version of each product.

Tried to finagle some test video for the cause, but (not unexpectedly) ran into a legal brick wall.

Good luck.

Hi all,

I'm back. I've been off shooting a documentary from the back of a motorcycle (man am I shot). We documented a ride from Oxford MI to NYC for 9/11. The Detroit Renegades, an outlaw gang of bikers raised $30,000 for the families of Brooklyn's FD unit #2's families and hand delivered the check. 300 bikes, 1000 stills, and hours of video. What an experience.

I posted a few stills for the bikers, if your intersted - http://www.heroesofseptember.net/911/

I'll post some video and the rest of the stills as soon as we get it all edited.

Anyway, I'll start putting together the test over the next couple of weeks. Any updates? Let me know.

5G

We have completed a version of the LOTR trailer in Flash.

I am out of the office until the 23rd, so I'll post it when I get back in the office. It looks good.

See ya guys then...

I was reading old posts and feel like I've been cheated halfway into a good novel.

Where did the mother-of-all video posts, "Your experience Using Video..." go to. It was to compare compression schemes for flash with "Wheels" moderating a comparison test on the "Lord of the Rings" trailer. It started 8/7 and just dropped off the screen 9/14. Did everyone agree to bail out? I'm very curious as to the results.

Sorry, it's just been pushed to the back burner. Jonathan and I have both been working on the upcoming Flashkit book. It's still going to happen, just a small delay.

We have created the Lord of the Rings trailer in MX.

Origianl QT file was over 20M. MX file came in at approximatly 6M with interactivity.

Check it out here

Come on guys...at least all of you compress the lord of the rings video until you can agree on an uncompressed video clip to use. I just read through 7 pages of posts only to find no payoff...I am very eager to see the end result of this... Thanks to the one group who compressed the clip already....now I'd like to see the SV and Flix interpretations.....I have a need for flash-resident video for an upcoming project and would like to pick a product to use with the help of this test.

thanks
matt