New @2A real estate site

Quote:

---

Originally posted by nevil
"wallpapers"!! where do wallpapers come into a pitch! anyway you may be right, but maybe eric might have said something along those lines if that was the case, instead he spoke as if it was a situation that he would never get out of, and as far as paying the bills, I am sure that the profits from the dozens of contracts currently under their belt would secure time to produce some top notch pitches, if they have time to create free demo sites for erains swift 3D product(which I think is great, I to have created some stuff for erain), then surely they have time to create proper pitches. If budget is not sufficient to allow for this kind of activity then 2Advanced have already got themselves into a position where their over heads are too high and they are risking placing themselves in a vulnerable market position. [/B]

---

I did not say Wallpapers come into a pitch. My point was..working on those things do not pay the bills, clients do.

As to what Eric said, he was speaking to something else, not our current conversation so it cannot be applied. He wasn't making a post as to the state of 2A affairs and company direction.

As far as budget goes, I have no idea what the budget at 2A is, but I do not think ANY company is willing to sit tight and pray for rain so to speak on a couple of huge pitches. I think you missed my example about marchFIRST completly. Budget or not, no company in their right mind is going to sit there and try and push the company to the next level simply by taking time to put together a handful of proposals and not being open to people who are willing to pay for work.

Would you and your small company take 6 months off of client work to try and pitch Nike? Would you even take 2 months off? I sure as heck wouldn't.

i love these threads -- makes the whole thing worth it

congrats on the new job, shane... have fun

Quote:

---

Originally posted by chrisd9
congrats on the new job, shane... have fun

---

Thanks, I've actually been there for a few months now, but with Mark coming on I guess it was time to announce both of us.

good deal...

your portfolio slightly expands beyond what 2a provides (ie dvd menus) is 2advanced planning on doing some work along these lines at all? or will you continue with free-lance, maybe doing things such as these on your own.

i am in awe...

All the greatest designers discussing in one obscure forum
{
Pixel Ranger
2advanced
Theory 7
}
now if only <B>egomedia</B> decided to join, now wouldnt that be something. lol

Well, I like the site EJ but i must say to all the FK goers, if you wanted to make the big bucks you are in the wrong business.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by k7m7t
i am in awe...

All the greatest designers discussing in one obscure forum
{
Pixel Ranger
2advanced
Theory 7
}
now if only <B>egomedia</B> decided to join, now wouldnt that be something. lol

---

obscure forum?? Pah! you're fired!

someone from egomedia used to post here now and again, his name was vitaly unclickable I think, haven't seen him around for a while though.

Web-Development is the wrong biz for money you mean ? Dunno how people is in your country, but here in norway i can get angry on how much people are willing to pay lol !!

You can easily get up to 250$ bucks for a plain html site, and from 500$ for a more flash based site. None of them are dynamic, so they don't give theyre visitors a damn thing except info... clients today.. BAH ! :)

I don't think he's reading this thread anymore..

Oh i bet when the time is right, and enough bad comments have been made, me and the rest will probably get a lesson trough mechanical modules trough text :)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by pixelranger

Quote:

---

Originally posted by nevil
"wallpapers"!! where do wallpapers come into a pitch! anyway you may be right, but maybe eric might have said something along those lines if that was the case, instead he spoke as if it was a situation that he would never get out of, and as far as paying the bills, I am sure that the profits from the dozens of contracts currently under their belt would secure time to produce some top notch pitches, if they have time to create free demo sites for erains swift 3D product(which I think is great, I to have created some stuff for erain), then surely they have time to create proper pitches. If budget is not sufficient to allow for this kind of activity then 2Advanced have already got themselves into a position where their over heads are too high and they are risking placing themselves in a vulnerable market position.

---

I did not say Wallpapers come into a pitch. My point was..working on those things do not pay the bills, clients do.

As to what Eric said, he was speaking to something else, not our current conversation so it cannot be applied. He wasn't making a post as to the state of 2A affairs and company direction.

As far as budget goes, I have no idea what the budget at 2A is, but I do not think ANY company is willing to sit tight and pray for rain so to speak on a couple of huge pitches. I think you missed my example about marchFIRST completly. Budget or not, no company in their right mind is going to sit there and try and push the company to the next level simply by taking time to put together a handful of proposals and not being open to people who are willing to pay for work.

Would you and your small company take 6 months off of client work to try and pitch Nike? Would you even take 2 months off? I sure as heck wouldn't. [/B]

---

Im sorry but not all companies scrape about taking every project they can to pay the bills, some companies have good business plans and practices which allow them the flexibility and space to expand and a proffesional web agency in england, for example agency.com or bluemarble will put a huge amount of time and effort into pitches, I think you are miss lead by what pitches are, this doesn't mean randomly boming companies with demos and "we are the best company to do the job for you", for example when the BBC's website renewal comes up several of the big agencies will prepare for this, doing research on what they are looking for, who is the best person to present the pitch to, etc, etc, not just posting of an email with a demo.

If a company wins one of these contracts the financial gain would pay for the entire portfolio of 2Advances work., so yes companies do take time to prepare these kind of pitches.

As far as refusing work, this is essential to improving your business, If that is the goal, ok you could keep a few designers working on the smaller projects, but for how long as a business will this be efficients and cost effective, not long.

I worked for a company as a flash designer who extensively researched 10 carefully chosen companies and prepared umbelievably pitches to present to each, the level of work committed gauranteed their success in winning contracts, and each was worth over £1,000,000, so do you still think that "NO company will sit there preparing pitches/proposals", they also refused work from smaller clients.

Lastly! you asked if me and my small company would take time off to pitch to clients, firstly I did not say that 2a should take 6 months of, secondly I have refused dozens of contracts over the last 2 years so that I can concentrate on work that I believe in, to take Theory7 to the next level I have taken 6 months off to develop the flash store and refused work during this time, it may not be making any money while it's in development but this is the only way to advance the company. And by keeping my overheads to a minimum I am able to afford this time.

very cool, i like it very much

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnny Shiro
Web-Development is the wrong biz for money you mean ? Dunno how people is in your country, but here in norway i can get angry on how much people are willing to pay lol !!

You can easily get up to 250$ bucks for a plain html site, and from 500$ for a more flash based site. None of them are dynamic, so they don't give theyre visitors a damn thing except info... clients today.. BAH ! :)

---

that sucks for you, i usually make 5k per project. (small business)

Nevil,

Normally, I completely agree with what you have to say, however, in this instance I would have to say that you are putting a little too much business theory in front of economic realities.

Quote:

---

Im sorry but not all companies scrape about taking every project they can to pay the bills, some companies have good business plans and practices which allow them the flexibility and space to expand and a proffesional web agency in england, for example agency.com or bluemarble will put a huge amount of time and effort into pitches, I think you are miss lead by what pitches are, this doesn't mean randomly boming companies with demos and "we are the best company to do the job for you", for example when the BBC's website renewal comes up several of the big agencies will prepare for this, doing research on what they are looking for, who is the best person to present the pitch to, etc, etc, not just posting of an email with a demo.

---

All small companies have one primary responsibility, and that is to Cash Flow. Payroll is my major concern, day after day. We have the fortunate situation of being able to say that we have never had to "layoff" a single employee here and have significant cash reserves just in case, and as such we want to keep things this way. So at the end of the day, if the issue is between taking on another project similar to the 2A Style vs laying people off and/or depleting reserves... I think the decision is quite simple.

Also, Agency.com is a bad example to use here. They were 1500+ people and listed on the Nasdaq at one time (ACOM was the old ticker before delisting), now they are stuggling each day for survival. In their entire history as a public company, I believe there was only one fiscal quarter that they had reached negligable profitability (4 cents per share I think it was). Sad.

For that matter, look at the industry as a whole for a moment. Isn't it dismaying that as of today not a single Tier-One design company has ever proven our business model? Razorfish, Sapient, Agency, Organic, Proxicom, Tanning, IXL, US Interactive, March First, etc... All on the verge of extinction or already dead. Not to mention many of the smaller companies we thought would never implode: Dennis Interactive, Deepend, Kioken?

Quote:

---

If a company wins one of these contracts the financial gain would pay for the entire portfolio of 2Advances work., so yes companies do take time to prepare these kind of pitches.

As far as refusing work, this is essential to improving your business, If that is the goal, ok you could keep a few designers working on the smaller projects, but for how long as a business will this be efficients and cost effective, not long.

---

In my opinion, the "pitch the big dogs" theory of business is the reason the larger firms ended up in so much trouble. The problem is that as you go for the larger projects you end up in competition with the Ad Agency giants (JWT, Chiat Day, Y&R, Saatchi, etc)... Those that have 75 years+ of experience, cash reserves for a whole lot of staying power, and can offer a boat load of services beyond the web/dev/interactive work. When you look at larger projects, they are for all intents and purposes multifaceted campaigns; the web/dev work is only a portion of the whole budget.

Quote:

---

I worked for a company as a flash designer who extensively researched 10 carefully chosen companies and prepared umbelievably pitches to present to each, the level of work committed gauranteed their success in winning contracts, and each was worth over £1,000,000, so do you still think that "NO company will sit there preparing pitches/proposals", they also refused work from smaller clients.

Lastly! you asked if me and my small company would take time off to pitch to clients, firstly I did not say that 2a should take 6 months of, secondly I have refused dozens of contracts over the last 2 years so that I can concentrate on work that I believe in, to take Theory7 to the next level I have taken 6 months off to develop the flash store and refused work during this time, it may not be making any money while it's in development but this is the only way to advance the company. And by keeping my overheads to a minimum I am able to afford this time.

---

Alas, it really comes down to the business model. We could go back and forth on the value of the "pitch" all day long. My philosophy has always been: "A bird in the hand..." In other words, there's always the potential of doing the cold pitch, but when you have 300+ unsolicited sales inquires a month coming through the door... Why take the revenue hit?

Of course recurring revenue would be the best model, and I completely respect any hell you may have gone through when you started selling source code off Theory7... But, this is all the nature of business. You test ideas and concepts, go with what works best and spike the failures. It's a gamble to take X months off for reaching the next level... If it works for your company... Wonderful. However, as I said above, my number one concern is our team and their families. I will be the first to vote away any decisions which put our people at risk.

On another note, for those reading Eric's statement. He wasn't trying to drive home the message that he doesn't want to hear negative feedback. The real frustration comes from the negative assessments which are made time and again without any thought to the real business issues going on behind the scenes. Statements like, "Why are there so many similarities from 2A project to 2A project". Well, it because thats what the clients are buying. It's fun to sit around and talk about turning away $100K projects because clients aren't listening to our advice... But in the end, if it means taking a hit in your business to do so... I would really suggest revisiting your "principles".

Quote:

---

Originally posted by tpnovak
Nevil,

Normally, I completely agree with what you have to say, however, in this instance I would have to say that you are putting a little too much business theory in front of economic realities.

Quote:

---

Im sorry but not all companies scrape about taking every project they can to pay the bills, some companies have good business plans and practices which allow them the flexibility and space to expand and a proffesional web agency in england, for example agency.com or bluemarble will put a huge amount of time and effort into pitches, I think you are miss lead by what pitches are, this doesn't mean randomly boming companies with demos and "we are the best company to do the job for you", for example when the BBC's website renewal comes up several of the big agencies will prepare for this, doing research on what they are looking for, who is the best person to present the pitch to, etc, etc, not just posting of an email with a demo.

---

All small companies have one primary responsibility, and that is to Cash Flow. Payroll is my major concern, day after day. We have the fortunate situation of being able to say that we have never had to "layoff" a single employee here and have significant cash reserves just in case, and as such we want to keep things this way. So at the end of the day, if the issue is between taking on another project similar to the 2A Style vs laying people off and/or depleting reserves... I think the decision is quite simple.

Also, Agency.com is a bad example to use here. They were 1500+ people and listed on the Nasdaq at one time (ACOM was the old ticker before delisting), now they are stuggling each day for survival. In their entire history as a public company, I believe there was only one fiscal quarter that they had reached negligable profitability (4 cents per share I think it was). Sad.

For that matter, look at the industry as a whole for a moment. Isn't it dismaying that as of today not a single Tier-One design company has ever proven our business model? Razorfish, Sapient, Agency, Organic, Proxicom, Tanning, IXL, US Interactive, March First, etc... All on the verge of extinction or already dead. Not to mention many of the smaller companies we thought would never implode: Dennis Interactive, Deepend, Kioken?

Quote:

---

If a company wins one of these contracts the financial gain would pay for the entire portfolio of 2Advances work., so yes companies do take time to prepare these kind of pitches.

As far as refusing work, this is essential to improving your business, If that is the goal, ok you could keep a few designers working on the smaller projects, but for how long as a business will this be efficients and cost effective, not long.

---

In my opinion, the "pitch the big dogs" theory of business is the reason the larger firms ended up in so much trouble. The problem is that as you go for the larger projects you end up in competition with the Ad Agency giants (JWT, Chiat Day, Y&R, Saatchi, etc)... Those that have 75 years+ of experience, cash reserves for a whole lot of staying power, and can offer a boat load of services beyond the web/dev/interactive work. When you look at larger projects, they are for all intents and purposes multifaceted campaigns; the web/dev work is only a portion of the whole budget.

Quote:

---

I worked for a company as a flash designer who extensively researched 10 carefully chosen companies and prepared umbelievably pitches to present to each, the level of work committed gauranteed their success in winning contracts, and each was worth over £1,000,000, so do you still think that "NO company will sit there preparing pitches/proposals", they also refused work from smaller clients.

Lastly! you asked if me and my small company would take time off to pitch to clients, firstly I did not say that 2a should take 6 months of, secondly I have refused dozens of contracts over the last 2 years so that I can concentrate on work that I believe in, to take Theory7 to the next level I have taken 6 months off to develop the flash store and refused work during this time, it may not be making any money while it's in development but this is the only way to advance the company. And by keeping my overheads to a minimum I am able to afford this time.

---

Alas, it really comes down to the business model. We could go back and forth on the value of the "pitch" all day long. My philosophy has always been: "A bird in the hand..." In other words, there's always the potential of doing the cold pitch, but when you have 300+ unsolicited sales inquires a month coming through the door... Why take the revenue hit?

Of course recurring revenue would be the best model, and I completely respect any hell you may have gone through when you started selling source code off Theory7... But, this is all the nature of business. You test ideas and concepts, go with what works best and spike the failures. It's a gamble to take X months off for reaching the next level... If it works for your company... Wonderful. However, as I said above, my number one concern is our team and their families. I will be the first to vote away any decisions which put our people at risk.

On another note, for those reading Eric's statement. He wasn't trying to drive home the message that he doesn't want to hear negative feedback. The real frustration comes from the negative assessments which are made time and again without any thought to the real business issues going on behind the scenes. Statements like, "Why are there so many similarities from 2A project to 2A project". Well, it because thats what the clients are buying. It's fun to sit around and talk about turning away $100K projects because clients aren't listening to our advice... But in the end, if it means taking a hit in your business to do so... I would really suggest revisiting your "principles".

---

Tony,
I dont think you need to justify to the community these decsions you guys make. The fact is you are the most well know flash agency, and that comes with the hardest critisism. I for one critisize a lot of things. I think 2advanced work is amazing and among my favourites but action speaks louder than words. 2advanced has produced the same thing over and over again. You do not have to defend it. Its your style that 2a has developed. The entire client talk here between you and the theory7 guy is getting out of focus in some way and its not the place to discuss this publically especially for 2a's image. People are tired of the same thing 2a is producing but they do not have the right to complain about this. instead they should broaden their horizons and put pressure on other companies simialr to 2a to produce another style successfully. I really really admire the work of 2a but i dont see any reality in this client talk to justify a design company producing the same thing day in day out. I think you should just say, "its our style" "clients pay for it" and put a full stop after it.
respect to your team.

I welcome discussions like this and the comments from tony, nevil and shane. I don't think it's necessarily a metter of defending business practices, rather just discussing them and helping a lot of people here realise just what goes on behind the scenes.

Design companies are out there todo what? Make Money! And do it anyway they can. Business Golden Rule "The customer is always right" 2a isn't there to make the designers of the world go "wow" ,but to make money, give jobs, and provide a creative place where its employees can express themselves. Im all for putting the future of the company ahead of nearly everything else.

i declare this thread:

"the thread of the month".

how much talent involved. this is great. keep talking

just a thought.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by perozo
i declare this thread:

"the thread of the month".

how much talent involved. this is great. keep talking

just a thought.

---

ok.. well.. i never would of thought.. OWW *thought too much*

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Sybersnake
Design companies are out there todo what? Make Money! And do it anyway they can. Business Golden Rule "The customer is always right" 2a isn't there to make the designers of the world go "wow" ,but to make money, give jobs, and provide a creative place where its employees can express themselves. Im all for putting the future of the company ahead of nearly everything else.

---

Another thought:

the only thing above the company is the employees, bc w/out them, where would the company be?

my brain is hurting, I can't handle these well thought out and researched responses, I just churn them off, spelling mistakes and all! I will try though!

a few notes:

- agency bad example, fair play.

- mr novak you said that you respect the hell I must have gone through when I started selling source code to my site, what did you mean by this, I didn't go through any hell, the concept has been a great success and has given me substantial research in practice to apply to the "Theory7 Flash Store".

- I'm only 25 and my business knowledge is probably not sufficient to carry on contributing to this thread, but I enjoyed having a go :)

- some advice to the 2A guys though, you should consider contributing to the boards for reasons other than just defending your good name, maybe helping out in the forums, correct me if I'm wrong and you already do this, sorry in advance if so.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by nevil
- mr novak you said that you respect the hell I must have gone through when I started selling source code to my site, what did you mean by this, I didn't go through any hell, the concept has been a great success and has given me substantial research in practice to apply to the "Theory7 Flash Store".

---

Agreed, it would appear that the concept is a success for you... I was refering to the personal hell of wading through this business decision. The problem I see comes from balancing the Risk vs. Reward decision.

There is an obvious realty that selling source or modules will turn Theory7 into a commodity, and thus Devalued in the eyes of the client. If everything is a template or a module, it's not long before you end up becoming the next Balthasar on the Internet... So how far does one go? Of course, this could be good or bad, depending on your ultimate business goals. Believe me, we've all had the discussion of breaking out modular components for sale. I see well over 100 messages a month coming through offering money for FLAs. But what cost will this have long term? Do you end up devaluing your work if clients can buy all of your source for under $1000? How easy is it to sell a $100K site in the future when a client is trying to dollar cost average your proposal? All of the questions that come up in my mind with a decision such as this amount to business analysis hell... :)

Quote:

---

- I'm only 25 and my business knowledge is probably not sufficient to carry on contributing to this thread, but I enjoyed having a go :)

---

I disagree... Your input is always a welcome addition to threads!

Quote:

---

- some advice to the 2A guys though, you should consider contributing to the boards for reasons other than just defending your good name, maybe helping out in the forums, correct me if I'm wrong and you already do this, sorry in advance if so. [/B]

---

Point well taken. Unfortunately, it's difficult to find the hours in the day with all that is going on at the studio currently. Even more so now... My daughter (Kayla Michelle Novak) was born Thursday, August 29th :) But no worries, I have completely eliminated "sleep" from my vocabulary... Now I only work... and change diapers!

haha! That's wonderful man!! Congratulations!

:D

As a newer member to this community and an even newer member of the business world, I must say that I have truly enjoyed this thread. This has given me insight on so many different levels from my favorite designers/companies, as well as the other members of our community.

Thanks a mil.

Congrats Tony!

first up congrats on the baby, you should get her a pc and a copy of flash for her first birthday and get her started early!!

anyway back to the thread, just one comment, I agree with your theory about selling source code, for 2A it would have a negative effect in the long run, but for Theory7 it will be the core of the business, I want to move away from working for clients, not completely but as the Flash Store will be core to the business the long term effect will not be relavent in terms of clients.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by nevil
first up congrats on the baby, you should get her a pc and a copy of flash for her first birthday and get her started early!!

---

Thank you (and thanks to Miles as well!). But, I'm already ahead of you! I was trying to talk my wife(Stephanie) into the idea of playing Java/ASP Training Videos round-the-clock in her room... Needless to say, my idea was summarily dismissed with a rather stern "Over my Dead Body" comment.

Quote:

---

anyway back to the thread, just one comment, I agree with your theory about selling source code, for 2A it would have a negative effect in the long run, but for Theory7 it will be the core of the business, I want to move away from working for clients, not completely but as the Flash Store will be core to the business the long term effect will not be relavent in terms of clients.

---

It's an interesting business concept... Several times in the past, the idea has come up here. Moreover, with MX Components it's even more viable. As an old VB/C developer, I remember companies of old like SAX, Sheridan, TrueGrid, etc: All of them made a veritable killing in the component/module market.

While selling templates and/or FLAs isn't our priority, we are still considering several other opportunities. In the end, the best business plan is one with Recurring Revenue attached in some shape or form. It's inconceivable to think that a studio can forever survive contract-by-contract... Plus, I need to lighten the burden on sales in order to reduce my hairloss rate!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by tpnovak
Thank you (and thanks to Miles as well!). But, I'm already ahead of you! I was trying to talk my wife(Stephanie) into the idea of playing Java/ASP Training Videos round-the-clock in her room... Needless to say, my idea was summarily dismissed with a rather stern "Over my Dead Body" comment.

---

when I was a kid my parents seriously discussed rigging up wires around the house they would move around, on so I would learn to fly as it seemed natural...

anyway, that's off-topic and better suited to the shrink's couch.

http://board.flashkit.com/board/imag.../2002/08/1.gif

Quote:

---

Originally posted by aversion

Quote:

---

Originally posted by tpnovak
Thank you (and thanks to Miles as well!). But, I'm already ahead of you! I was trying to talk my wife(Stephanie) into the idea of playing Java/ASP Training Videos round-the-clock in her room... Needless to say, my idea was summarily dismissed with a rather stern "Over my Dead Body" comment.

---

when I was a kid my parents seriously discussed rigging up wires around the house they would move around, on so I would learn to fly as it seemed natural...

anyway, that's off-topic and better suited to the shrink's couch.

http://board.flashkit.com/board/imag.../2002/08/1.gif

---

that's the funniest thing I have ever read on flashkit

Dear guys,

reading this thread I very much regret that currently I have very very little time to write longer comments about the site and about the very interesting discussion about the ways the web developers should work and live...

I just wish to say CONGRATS and WELL DONE to the guys of 2A. Great site indeed. [I think] nobody noticed the huge amount of graphics design work that went in every pixel of this site. From the point of view of graphics design this site perhaps is more advanced than 2advanced.com (sorry guys). :)

Again, well done and thank you very much for a great CONTRIBUTION in web development!!

All the best,

Vahagn

daem you people are a pain in the ass, 2a is the best designing team/firm on the net and just because they are making money on what you would like to work with you say **** about there sites. If somebody said to me we pay you a lot of money if you make us a site for ours firm , we want it to look red and black and have a big picture of an horses ass hole in the middle so everyone can see it I would do it no question about it. It`s all about the Benjamin's.

Money rules the world!

2a wants to make diffrent sites with another design , but it isn`t about what they want but what the clients WANT!
Get that in your stupid head and you dont turn down a project just because the client dont want it like that.

You people think that you are so smart and you say you would turn down projects and money if you dont get it the way you want it, how many designing teams/firms do you know of that have turned down projects just because the clients want a site to be semilar to other sites in the portfolio ?
(AND JUST DONT NAME ONE SITE BUT AT LEAST 5)

I have one thing to say to you...

[edit - please lay off the swearing]

[Edited by aversion on 09-04-2002 at 10:43 AM]

just one more thing :

The site is one of the best I have ever seen , and I have seen a lot of flash sites in my life.

2a makes 100times better sites for there clients then whoswe.com if you ask me.

Am i right or what

nice sites you have Jeay....
I had to copy paste but thats OK.

I get annoyed by people who gets annoyed by others (Did that make sense ? )

I haven't seen a *****in comment in this tread, only reasonable comments about the negative aspect of the site.
I couldn't care less if 2A makes 100 000 $ per second or not ... most of us are web-designers ourselfes, and are trying to make the "BIG HIT". Not everyones likes the 2A design. I have shown it to a several people, and many of the comments made on, was about the sci-fi look and animation..and beein cool aspect as many designers use these days...like having a BLACK txt and then followed by a // and then a more greyisk txt behind that one ..

And the use of words like Modules, emotions for example :)
I had a friend which talked like that when he made websites...felt like slapping him every time he mentioned his sci fi words !!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeay
daem you people are a pain in the ass, 2a is the best designing team/firm on the net and just because they are making money on what you would like to work with you say **** about there sites. If somebody said to me we pay you a lot of money if you make us a site for ours firm , we want it to look red and black and have a big picture of an horses ass hole in the middle so everyone can see it I would do it no question about it. It`s all about the Benjamin's.

Money rules the world!

2a wants to make diffrent sites with another design , but it isn`t about what they want but what the clients WANT!
Get that in your stupid head and you dont turn down a project just because the client dont want it like that.

You people think that you are so smart and you say you would turn down projects and money if you dont get it the way you want it, how many designing teams/firms do you know of that have turned down projects just because the clients want a site to be semilar to other sites in the portfolio ?
(AND JUST DONT NAME ONE SITE BUT AT LEAST 5)

I have one thing to say to you...

[edit - please lay off the swearing]

[Edited by aversion on 09-04-2002 at 10:43 AM]

---

- this is a discussion forum and the best work always creates this level of positive/negative critisism, average works just pass by.

- secondly not everyone is doing this just for the money, some people want to have personal direction in what they do, not just have their style dictated by their clients wallet, I think that is just your opinion, you are free to express it, but don't express it as though everyone else is wrong.

Quote:

---

- secondly not everyone is doing this just for the money, some people want to have personal direction in what they do, not just have their style dictated by their clients wallet, I think that is just your opinion, you are free to express it, but don't express it as though everyone else is wrong. [/B]

---

I completely agree with Nevil on this point. For a focused entrepreneur, money is ancillary. Of course, it is fundamental to payroll and keeping a business afloat...

That being said, first and foremost you have to love what you do. A passion for design and/or development is really the key to this business. If you love what you do and strive for perfection, you'll feel a hell of a lot more complete as a person! Not to mention the money "aspect" comes much more easily when you are less hung-up over the concept.

At last a thread that has some substance. I feel sites such as 2A, give younger designers, such as myself, something to aim for...if not something to try and better. This can only be a good thing right?

MAN oh mna this is lame!

ARe you going to issuuuuue a grafIX deziine challenge or not!?

As for the stite I think it is wrong for the client. but have fun shwoing them theeir increasd in traffic anyway (even tho its' al highskoooolers from flashkiit!). ...

Ha ha! Better than that lousy hookey site though. But not much! Generaly the same issues/problems.... .

thanksly


[mod edit - talking about high school no swearing on flashkit, keep your comments clean]


[Edited by aversion on 09-04-2002 at 02:12 PM]

Mr novak, when oh when will you be inclined to change your avatar gif so it fits smoothly over the yellow background oh the flashkit posts..things like that annoy my eyeballs.


thought a refreshing tangential subject was in order...

Chris
http://www.edevstudios.com

Quote:

---

Originally posted by lady bring
MAN oh mna this is lame!

ARe you going to issuuuuue a grafIX deziine challenge or not!?

As for the stite I think it is wrong for the client. but have fun shwoing them theeir increasd in traffic anyway (even tho its' al highskoooolers from flashkiit!). ...

Ha ha! Better than that lousy hookey site though. But not much! Generaly the same issues/problems.... .

thanksly


[mod edit - talking about high school, no swearing on flashkit, keep your comments clean]

[Edited by aversion on 09-04-2002 at 02:12 PM]

---

you entitled to your comments but please don't swear on flashkit.

if you're looking for threads about design or design challenges, check out the design and graphics forum, there's a few different threads there where you can show us your work and give your opinions on others.

cheers

A question for Mr Jordan,
once whilst reading The Flash Bible, in the designer profiles, it said that you liked nothing more than to lock yourself in a room, with nice music and create hightech feel flash sites. I was jjust wondering is this true. I cant picture it myself.
Pete






Shameless Plug:: http://www.raffa.co.uk