http://www.mychoice.ca - Fighting for smoker's right...

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
Better stay out of places like Kentucky then, cause even in the courthouses, they have standup ashtrays every 10 feet in the lines leading up to the license plate desk.

But I see what your saying, you want rights, but others can't have any if they conflict with your idea of rights.

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you have the right to buy & smoke cigs but not the right to kill nonsmokers next to you.

I buy a pint (drinking it is supposed to be "bad" and like cigs, are taxed) but I don't throw it up on your favourite sweater. It is my body, my stomach.

I think TheOriginalFlashDavo said it better tho.

We're talking about rights here. If I stand in a field and smoke a cigarette, and a non-smoker comes and stands downwind from me and tells me to put it out because he doesn't like the smell, he can go stuff it or quit breathing. Like he said, "you can do ANYTHING you want, so long as it doesn't impact or effect me", which is fine, until that person starts saying that everything I do impacts or effects him. Which appears to be what's happening these days. I see laws on the books to ban smoking in bars. Yeah right. You may as well ban the bar, cause if you exclude the smokers, the bar will fail anyway from lack of clientele. It's the old story, give a non-smoker an inch, he wants a mile. As a smoker, I say if you don't want to breathe smoke in a bar, don't go in the bar. If you don't want to smell smoke on peoples clothes, move away. What your trying to say is that smokers don't have any rights at all, and that isn't going to work.

kinda like getting a restraining order from someone then intentionaly going near them and complaining.

I dont like smokers and thats that,dont come near me and smoke, i wont go near you or goto where you are and say stop, but dont go near me and light one up. easy as that. you smell like crap, i dont thats how i like it;)

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
I see laws on the books to ban smoking in bars. Yeah right. You may as well ban the bar, cause if you exclude the smokers, the bar will fail anyway from lack of clientele. It's the old story, give a non-smoker an inch, he wants a mile. As a smoker, I say if you don't want to breathe smoke in a bar, don't go in the bar. If you don't want to smell smoke on peoples clothes, move away. What your trying to say is that smokers don't have any rights at all, and that isn't going to work.

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you usually are very well-informed iaskwhy...i'm surprised you are so far off the mark on this one.
were you just trying to make a point?

you do know that these laws have nothing to do with the patrons of the bar or non-smokers, but rather the workers of the bar, right? these laws are to protect smoking AND non-smoking employees of these establishments. there are laws that limit pollution in factories as well. i'm assuming your viewpoint will just be, "if you don't want to work a 10-hour shift in a smoke-filled room, then don't work in a bar." well, that's easy for us to say with our cool, high-paying tech jobs. someone has to work in the bar, and they should be protected.

if smokers have the right to smoke wherever and whenever they want then i have the right to park my car in a door way and rev the engine till im satisfied with the amount of poison i have forced into the lungs of the inhabitants.

Maybe we frequent different kinds of bars? I prefer the smaller, no band, no dancing, bar that serves greasy burgers and fries and has a big screen TV going with either MTV or some football game showing. The bartender is usually the owner or the owners nephew, and has his own set of ashtrays on the backbar, usually with a butt smoldering in each one. To tell these people they can no longer allow smoking in their establishments is a perfect indication of a law that does not serve all the people, but a select few. Also, the smoking ban is decided by the states and even town ordinances, so it just doesn't apply across the board. It's a stupid sop of a law and smoking or non-smoking in a place of business ought to be left up to the owners.

And your also right about the bartenders in other types of bars. They know people smoke there, so if they want a job there, they don't really have the right to ***** about it do they? By what sense of whats right, does anybody have the audacity to ask for employment then demand that the rules be changed just for him? Let's talk reality.

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
And your also right about the bartenders in other types of bars. They know people smoke there, so if they want a job there, they don't really have the right to ***** about it do they? By what sense of whats right, does anybody have the audacity to ask for employment then demand that the rules be changed just for him? Let's talk reality.

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Well, in the U.S., OSHA.

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.ya...a/trouble3.jpg
"There isn't any rule that says I can't come over here and fart on your entree."

OSHA doesn't guarantee a job to anyone. Go apply at a bar that still allows smoking and tell them you don't smoke, and see if they hire you. Or, get hired, then complain about the smoke and see if your still employed there the next day.

There are laws, then there are ten ways to get around them. Gawd keep us from the do-gooders.

OSHA does guarantee safe working conditions though. If you're slinging suds in a town that allows smoking in bars, they'll certainly come back you up and push for legislation.

Personally, I prefer to go to no-smoking bars now. I can breathe, and don't come out smelling like an ashtray.

The smokers in Manhattan? They go outside, it's no big deal. Hell, it's easier to meet women that way. I've gone out for a smoke just to talk to some girl.

The only time I saw anti-smoking rules get out of hand was in college, when the admissions office complained that when they led tours around, parents had to look at all the smoking kids and it made a bad impression. Boo-hoo.

They still allowed smoking in dorms, but most people were curteous enough to go outside on their own.

Well, as a reality check, I rarely go outside my house with my cigarettes. I don't hang out in bars, I go for a couple frosty mugs and a burger, then I leave, I can make it that long without smoking. I work at home, and smoke only in the bathroom next to the window, cause I don't like the whole house smelling like smoke. And before I was born, it was considered a fisticuff matter to blow smoke in someones face. On the other hand, the way the mob is now going after smokers reminds me of a grade B western. Holier than thou's have always made me nervous. If you listen closly, the loudest voices against smoking have a burr in them from the 30 years these people smoked before they got religion.

this is more entertaining then the presidential debate. please continue!

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Originally posted by Markp.com
Make every 1000th cig contain an explosive charge... tada! No more smokers! :)

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I like your morbid ideas. I'm on board!:mrpimp:

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Originally posted by asun2art
I like your morbid ideas. I'm on board!:mrpimp:

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Ok... I'll work on the charges... you get a job on the assembly line... Muhahahahhahahaaaa!

What annoys me most are people who light up at bustops. They figure because its outside it all fair game. Seriously, if you want to smoke there amongst a crowd of people waiting for the bus, move yourself to the side, its one of my pet peeves.

The smokers I get annoyed with are the ones who think it's their god-given rigt to smoke wherever they want, and then cry buckets about city laws that keep pushing them outside. What can I say, life's not fair, deal with it. It's like a drunk driver complaining about having his license revoked, because he thinks it his right to drive no matter what the consequences his actions have on other people.

The only annoyence for me is those people who think it's their god given right to tell me where, when and what I can smoke. It's all a part of a bigger picture which is looking more and more like a brave new world.

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
The only annoyence for me is those people who think it's their god given right to tell me where, when and what I can smoke. It's all a part of a bigger picture which is looking more and more like a brave new world.

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Its their right to stop you from killing them.

Kill yourself by all means, but when you start on other people its not good.

A Brave New World IS coming, but not as Orwellian as one might think. We have entered the fed up era. There's less debate about what's healthier and what's better for the masses. Those things are pretty well researched and agreed upon by now.

Non-conformists best agrument used to be that it remained to be seen who was really in the right. Now that we have more data, the arguments are frivolous and it's time to act.

You used to be able to sell meat with metal in it and paint with asbestos.

Longevity is the new rule so get used to it.

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Originally posted by jAQUAN
A Brave New World IS coming, but not as Orwellian as one might think. We have entered the fed up era. There's less debate about what's healthier and what's better for the masses. Those things are pretty well researched and agreed upon by now.

Non-conformists best agrument used to be that it remained to be seen who was really in the right. Now that we have more data, the arguments are frivolous and it's time to act.

You used to be able to sell meat with metal in it and paint with asbestos.

Longevity is the new rule so get used to it.

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I'm glad you have it all planned out for us.

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
Tell ya what. I'll go ahead and smoke whenever I damn well please, whether you like it or not. OK? If you don't want to breathe smoke, then you hold your breath. Why should your rights carry any more weight than mine?

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Not asking for more rights, just equal rights not to inflict harm on each other.

Really simple concept for most, even for all the smokers I know personally.


Anyway, thankfully people's health and well-being is slowly taking precedence over those who don't care what harm they might cause others, so no debate really needed.

Unless someone wants to start arguing for bringing back meat with metal in it and paint with asbestos?!?!

Bringing back? I wish I could see your expression when you find out that the biggest part of the world still uses paint with all kinds of chemicals in it that are illegal here, and still insulate with asbestos. And I assume meat with metal in it is some sort of heavy metal pollution? Guess where all the Salmon and shellfish go that get tested and found to have too many banned chemicals in them? They don't get dumped back in the ocean. As for banning smoking, not only is it not universal in the US, you would get hired as a comedian if you proposed that in most countries of the world. so it seems that not everyone is buying into this story.

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
I wish I could see your expression...

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Actually, the more I read you posts the more laughter is expressed on my face, to be completely honest with you.

Yes, yes, let's use comparisons with other countries less developed than us shall we, or those less concerned about people's health? That way we can do whatever the damn well we want and stuff anybody else!

Damn right, that's the kind of country I want to live in, one where it's all "stuff your health, we have a right to do whatever we damn well please!"

Yes, yes, tally ho chaps!!


Ahh, you do provide hours of amusement iaskwhy, I have to give you credit for that! :D

Well said. For someone who doesn't live in this country, you sure have enough opinions on how we ought to run our lives. Don't you ever get tired of it? I know I am.

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
Well said. For someone who doesn't live in this country, you sure have enough opinions on how we ought to run our lives. Don't you ever get tired of it? I know I am.

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Actually, I viewed this conversation as being as much about the US, Australia, the UK or any other country that has a social structure in place where they can place a priority on people's health...

You do know there is more to the world - and these conversations - than the US, don't you?

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Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
Actually, I viewed this conversation as being as much about the US, Australia, the UK or any other country that has a social structure in place where they can place a priority on people's health...

You do know there is more to the world - and these conversations - than the US, don't you?

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Yes, I believe I made that clear in the post you quoted half a sentence from. Did you know that the places in the world that don't put such a high priority on the right to a smoke free environment far outnumber those that do? Making claims, even insinuating that the rest of the world thinks the way you do about it is stretching it, a lot. Time has shown that you can pass the laws, but enforcing them are a different matter. In many states of the US alone, you can't even convince the voters to pass a smoke free law. Whoa, reality rears it's ugly head. In many places where the law passed, it's now being ignored.

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
Yes, I believe I made that clear in the post you quoted half a sentence from. Did you know that the places in the world that don't put such a high priority on the right to a smoke free environment far outnumber those that do?

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I could also hazard a guess that the places in the world where factories still pour their sewage straight into rivers probably also outnumber those who do not.

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Making claims, even insinuating that the rest of the world thinks the way you do about it is stretching it, a lot.

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So who was insinuating this at all? You seem to make a lot of baseless accusations.

I simply commented on the fact that laws were slowly being introduced - in Australia and from what I've read the US too - that were protecting people's health from tobacco smoke. Mostly common sense laws from a health perspective.

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In many places where the law passed, it's now being ignored.

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Ahhh, but of course, people ignoring or breaking laws is a good enough reason for us to abolish them using your logic?

Speeding laws are also ignored by many people - including those special laws around schools. Does this mean they should also not exist, and that we should be free to drive at whatever speed we feel like outside schools? I mean, how dare they say what I can and cannot do!!

How dare they I say!!!

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Ahhh, but of course, people ignoring or breaking laws is a good enough reason for us to abolish them using your logic?

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Why do you call it my logic? I was just stating a fact that I've seen with my own eye's. I didn't even voice an opinion on it, just said it happens. There must be a reason though. Probably doesn't coincide with what you think is right for everybody, but that's how it goes.

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
Why do you call it my logic? I was just stating a fact that I've seen with my own eye's. I didn't even voice an opinion on it, just said it happens. There must be a reason though. Probably doesn't coincide with what you think is right for everybody, but that's how it goes.

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Oh, so you've changed your mind about introducing laws banning smoking in public places then?

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Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
Oh, so you've changed your mind about introducing laws banning smoking in public places then?

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Where do you get that from? I just said laws have been passed to ban smoking, and are now being ignored. I haven't changed my mind, I thought they were stupid then and they are stupid now.

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
Where do you get that from? I just said laws have been passed to ban smoking, and are now being ignored. I haven't changed my mind, I thought they were stupid then and they are stupid now.

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Well I'm just trying to see where people ignoring the laws is relevant to this discussion, that's all?

I mean, I already know that you think a law that protects people from having to inhale other people's tobacco smaoke is stupid, but I'm just trying to fathom the relevance of you bringing people ignoring the laws into the discussion?

Which - as I pointed out - has as much relevance as people ignoring speeding laws outside schools does in arguing that they're "stupid".

Yes, I know your incapable of seeing the connection between stupid laws being passed then a few years later being ignored because people belatedly realize they were stupid in the first place. Some laws are just stupid, because they were made without considering the rights of everyone, instead of just the rights of those who yell the loudest. Other laws, like speeding in school zones aren't necessarily stupid, and it's so like you to make that connection, which has nothing to do with smoking, or reality. What's your point?

There is nothing wrong with non-smokers being able to work in an environment where they don't have to breathe second hand smoke, but is it really necessary to make a law that persecutes those who want to smoke? You of all people, the champion of the underdog, ought to see that there is another way.

"Stupid, just stupid! No reason, just stupid, stupid laws!"

:rolleyes:

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Originally posted by iaskwhy
There is nothing wrong with non-smokers being able to work in an environment where they don't have to breathe second hand smoke, but is it really necessary to make a law that persecutes those who want to smoke? You of all people, the champion of the underdog, ought to see that there is another way. [/B]

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Not just work, but also live.

And unfortunately, just as with laws restricting speeding outside schools, environmental laws that stop factories from dumping untreated waste into rivers and oceans, unfortunately laws are required because some people just want to abuse the freedom they so cherish having.

Smokers have had many, many years to think of non-smokers and not smoke where it affected others. They chose - in general, and you have made patently obvious - not to care how it affected others, so now we have to resort to laws. It's the same as any law being introduced, it occurs because too many people abuse their so called freedom of choice.

All laws are made for the same reason (which is why they can be compared): To restrict a certain area of our freedoms because too many people abuse that area. Or do you have another reason for requiring laws?

Here, simple logic: Your smoking harms others who do not smoke. Due to you - and/or many others - not caring about that and changing their habits accordingly we now have to pass laws forcing you to.

Anyway, the humour's gone from this now. Keep bleating away if you choose, but in case you haven't noticed just as in "reality" the numbers here are squarely against your point of view.

And even if they weren't, you're causing harm to others - do you understand that very simple concept?

Or not, it would seem...

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Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
Not just work, but also live.

And unfortunately, just as with laws restricting speeding outside schools, environmental laws that stop factories from dumping untreated waste into rivers and oceans, unfortunately laws are required because some people just want to abuse the freedom they so cherish having.

Smokers have had many, many years to think of non-smokers and not smoke where it affected others. They chose - in general, and you have made patently obvious - not to care how it affected others, so now we have to resort to laws. It's the same as any law being introduced, it occurs because too many people abuse their so called freedom of choice.

All laws are made for the same reason (which is why they can be compared): To restrict a certain area of our freedoms because too many people abuse that area. Or do you have another reason for requiring laws?

Here, simple logic: Your smoking harms others who do not smoke. Due to you - and/or many others - not caring about that and changing their habits accordingly we now have to pass laws forcing you to.

Anyway, the humour's gone from this now. Keep bleating away if you choose, but in case you haven't noticed just as in "reality" the numbers here are squarely against your point of view.

And even if they weren't, you're causing harm to others - do you understand that very simple concept?

Or not, it would seem...

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Excellent post! I take my hat off to you good sir! :)

Okay... Iaskwhy needs some help.

First of all, I'm from Belgium, I live in Belgium and therefor do not know any laws passed in the USA or in any other part of the world... I have no idea if it is 'legal' to smoke in a bar...
I can tell you... I would stop smoking if it was illegal, but it isn't, or atleast not in belgium.

There is no law telling me i cannot smoke in the company of others. It is my own comman sence that must make it clear to if I may or may not smoke...
Frankly, i'dd smoke anywhere... Hell i'dd light up in a perfume store. Not because i'm oblivious to other peoples feeling or health but because I am addicted to nicotine. If I feel the urge to smoke i MUST smoke.
I have been trying to stop for about two years now, I know the cons... But i still enjoy it. it would be like saying that surfing the internet and computers are bad for your eyes and taking away that privelidge from you.

If you don't smoke... I applaude your strenght of will, I really do.
But a) don't try and convert me. b) Don't overreact if you inhale my smoke...

I'm just wondering how many people here have put someones life in jeopardy...
** do you drive a car? Because you might kill someone, if you don't hit them with your car i'm sure your exhaust fumes can't be good for the planet and the humans inhaling it
** Are you sure that you can say you always participate in safe sex? because you could be carrying a deadly virus without knowing it and helpind to spread the diseasa.
** is your taxmoney being used to fund war?
** do you buy brand sneakers created in china by a twelve year old so he can feed his baby sister?
** do you own a gun that can be used to murder you neighbor in a fit of rage?
** and my personal favorite... do you own violent videogames that may cause your children to storm into their school emptying their ak47 in to a room of innocent bystanders.

If smoking makes me a victim and a murderer at the same time ask yourselves what you are before you complain about a smoker killing you.
(this discussion has made my heart beat faster which has cause my blood pressure to rise which i'm sure has just knocked 15 minutes of my life....

/RANT

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Originally posted by iForgotMyPassword
(this discussion has made my heart beat faster which has cause my blood pressure to rise which i'm sure has just knocked 15 minutes of my life....)

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Sounds like you need to go have a cigg and calm down... ;)

Fact is, more people don't smoke, than people that do. So the masses always win.

There are other ways to get nicotine, much less destructive (for you and others), those patches for instance.

This is just going round and round and round... Its pointless.

Smoking will be banned in all public places one day so I don't know why people are wasting their time debating this...

Smokers, you're a dying breed... Literally :D

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Originally posted by iForgotMyPassword
If smoking makes me a victim and a murderer at the same time ask yourselves what you are before you complain about a smoker killing you.

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eh? I wouldn't say it makes you a murderer, but it makes you someone who obviously puts their own habits above their concern for strangers, friends and family if you smoke around any of them.

There's nothing about poisoning people in public that should be a 'right'. There are a million other things people can do in public that are equivalent to smoking, but none of them are legal, smoking's only around because of big busines, not because it's some 'right' you have to poison people.

hmm some culture have smoked for many different reason for DECADES and even centuries.

Native americans smoke the peace pipe
Turkish and arabic people people have smoked waterpipes since the egyptians era's
Africans have enjoyed weed and cannabis since i don't know when.
Azians and herione have been going hand in hand since forever
Europeans have considered Tobacco a Luxury product since the 1400's??

Basically i'm just saying that smoking has been around so long that people are RAISED with it...
It is the new generation of healthy people that complain...

Hell your parents probably smoked more (pot)then you did.... (not that is a valid point but think about it!!)

no i think that smoking in public is an american thing.... of a youth that can't handle anything anymore....

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Smokers, you're a dying breed... Literally

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Fine but then let me die in peace.

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Originally posted by iForgotMyPassword
Fine but then let me die in peace.

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dont smoke in public then

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Originally posted by j_hunter182
dont smoke in public then

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arghh forget it it's no use...


I'd love to see the FACTS on second hand smoking.

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Originally posted by iForgotMyPassword
arghh forget it it's no use...


I'd love to see the FACTS on second hand smoking.

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Same here. But your right, forget it, I'm going to still smoke, no matter what whiners say about it. I like the one where the guy is complaining because someone is smoking at a bus stop where all the cars, trucks and busses are spewing noxious poison gasses in his face and all he can see is the guy having a smoke. It takes a certain breed of person to snivel about that kind of thing, and they do it because it's pretty hard to hate a bus, but a person now, that's easy. He has rights you can step on. You can take all your frustrations out on him.

sod the facts on second hand smoking, the fact is non smokers dont enjoy breathing second hand smoke!

and for this person at the bus stop to complain about the bus he is about to get on would bit of a contradiction. I think people being transported to and from places is a bit higher on the hierachy of needs than an ignorant person wanting to smoke in a public place 'cos they "need it".