I don't know the guy but I would think prison is a bit extreme -- wouldn't community service or something (along with fine) be more appropriate?
prisons are for rapists, murderers, drug-dealers, etc.
I don't know the guy but I would think prison is a bit extreme -- wouldn't community service or something (along with fine) be more appropriate?
prisons are for rapists, murderers, drug-dealers, etc.
I'd rather have thieves in prison than drug dealers.
Its all well and good... and I think that would be an excellent system... but how would you police it?Quote:
Originally Posted by whispers
These people have already broken the law, so how can you trust them to do work in their field? Building software for the Gov, would no doubt have tons of back doors in, building websites would have all kinds of problems in it...
I mean getting prisoners to dig a holes and stamp license plates is one thing, but trusting someone who has broken the law to do something with skill and trust... well, I wouldn't want that labour...
Relax Aversion... it wasn't meant as a shot or a jab... it's just what came to my mind at the moment. This is because internet thieves (and theives in general) seem to use pseudonyms fairly commonly, so I think my comment wasn't all that misguided.Quote:
Originally Posted by aversion
Quote:
Originally Posted by whispers
wait a sec, according to the article, he already had a chance to "learn his lesson" without going to prison. Yet he kept doing it.
Besides, I doubt he even stays there for more than 2 years.
While not excusing his actions I feel that prison should only be for violent criminals or those that are a danger to society.
Otherwise there are plenty of better and more productive/redemptive efforts on which to spend their time.
Surely this fellow's talents could be put to use working for the authorities and/or his victims until he's paid his fine and paid back damages to the companies he harmed.
depends on the thieves, e.g.Quote:
Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar
1. A man who steals $1 million worth of software from a shop where he threatened the staff with a shotgun.
2. A man who steals $1 million worth of software from internet, P2P or whatever.
3. A man who sells drugs to some kids and fully knowingly that taking them may lead to death.
If there is only room for two people in our already overcrowded prisons I would rather send (3) and (1) to prison before considering (2).
Just my £0.02.
From what I've read, this isn't the first time he's done this, so perhaps a little time in the pokey is just what he needs to get the point (that and giving up everything he owns to pay some of the fines). Clearly he's not a productive member of society, and his freedom has proven to be a detriment to the well being of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by whispers
I'd assume he's probably not going to the most high security joint in Texas either. I could be wrong though.
Perhaps you'd think differently if it was your 1.5mil in goods that he stole. What would you want done to remedy your unrecoverable loss?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue
The thing you have to remember is that the US is a capitalist society which revolves around profit and loss. People who create loss by theft do damage society, in terms of economy and financial well-being.
Beyond that, do you really think a little supervised community service would be any sort of deterrant to future crimes? I think not.
I just can't see why, he has so much talent, was flashlevel not pulling in enough money?
Prison is a deterrant, not just to him but you can bet your ass there are a few people doing exactly what he did who are hastily packing up shop right now, they might not have done so if he just got some sort of community service.
I would be all for some sort of house arrest, tagging etc, but there has to be something more than community service and a fine to dissuade people from stealing. You've got to know that going down that route you're risking your liberty.
I have no idea about flashlevel but I know some other so called 'name' designers who were making less than $5k for some of these award winning sites, and I know one who was building sites for much less. You'd be surprised. There's far more money in building solid web sites with extensive back end functionality than there is in relatively static flashy promo sites.Quote:
Originally Posted by ctranter
I think that you could still put his talents to work without causing problems....he could develop websites or applications for the government but maybe just the frontend, you could then have a hired employee develop the backend for security purposes...even this way you sometimes get security holes. I used to think that having a hacker develop stuff for the government would be the way to go because if he knows how to get in, he may also know how to stop people from getting in. Actually I still think that way but maybe I don't know enough about hacking.
Funny... I just had to do the math on that one. At $20 per hour it would only take him 85.6 years to make restitution... and that figure assumes there's no tax on the income, and he works 24 hours a day for those 85 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue
$20 an hour, 7.5 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year, is about 32 years to earn $1.2 million. Assuming he keeps half to live on, that would be 64 years to pay it all back.
Still kinda impractical.
Martha had to do time over a lot less money. Besides that, he probably wont really serve 4 years.
I'm assuming that those advocating that only violent criminals should go to prison believe the Enron guys should walk?
See what happens when I do the math?
Someone else should always do the math.
A big TO NOTE: He did not simply offer the software as a free download violating copyrights and such.
He sold numerous copies of home-packaged, pirated software to people, whether or not they knew, allegedly twice. Money from this went directly into his pockets, to the order of $192,000.
It is indefensible.
$192,000 is:
771 Sony PSPs
946 Apple Ipod Nanos
711 Motorola Razrs
274 Copies of Flash 8 Professional
548,571 Packs of Winterfresh gum (35 cents)
518,918 thirty seven cent stamps
678 Gigabytes worth of music from Itunes (3.5 MB song size)(Math might be wrong)
401 Ounces of gold bullion
25 Pounds of gold bullion
That is the value of $192,000. Tangible dollars that he himself accrued in his own bank accont. Note that most figures are rounded.
However, I agree, if he were only giving away millions of dollars of software, I'd assume he was some free software fundamentalist that might need some probation and community service to understand that even if we don't like it, we operate under capitalism.
////
Although Martha Stewart mishandled money, she broke security and exchange laws, she didn't technically steal, especially considering the company was involved :p
Guess the demand for Flash websites went cold...
Right or wrongly convicted, her case was over and regarding less money than the amount made illegally by this guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by annexion
With all of the complaining that goes on here about people ripping code from web-sites and biting designs, I would expect the condemnation to be synchronised. Isn't it? It's the same concept.
Traffic and Layer Cake do an excellent job of justifying why people takes these chances, because there is so much money to be made in such an easy way.
Layer Cake:
"When I was born, the world was a far simpler place. It was all just cops and robbers.There were villains locked away for years for robbing a bank for a grand doing time with drippy hippies doing months for smuggling two million quid's worth of puff.
I mean, work it out, mate.
We're in the wrong f---- game.
Drugs changed everything.
Always remember that one day this
drug monkey-business will be legal.
They won't leave it to people like me when they figure out how much money there is to be made: Not millions, f--- billions."
Well,... looks like there's a new void that needs filling... so, any of you guys need any software? :p
before I read on...you think someone who runs a successfull business, have design skills that even the mods that we get help from respect, pays his taxes every check/year like a normal citizen...not a productive member of society??Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCharles
well. making nearly 200k illegally and removing a million dollars in sales in the process from software companies more than negates any taxes he would have paid. im assuming he didn't pay taxes on the 200k. ;)
No, I think someone who steals is a counterproductive member of society. Remember, we are generally judged by the sum of our actions... but the negative always carries more weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by whispers
It's wonderful to think that he may have paid his taxes on time... should that somehow lessen the weight of his crimes and reinstate his value in society? I pay my taxes, and I don't steal. The way you seem to put things, I guess I deserve a f**king medal.
Incidentally, I'd imagine that respect you speak of will all but disappear at this point. Nobody respects a theif, except perhaps other theives.
I think it's funny that just because this guy was a very gifted Flash designer he gets all of this special treatment here.
Like indivision said, would you all really feel this way if it was a suit from Enron?
Or how about someone making 200k by impersonating a 2Advanced site?
It's not like Enron was important or anything.This is Flashlevel we are talking about here. :) Actually I never heard of this guy until this thread came about. I always figured if I (or any other members) disappeared or died or whatever then they'd be forgotten and no one would notice. Heck I left for 2 years and no one noticed (and I even left a note).Quote:
Originally Posted by admedia
I dare to say, the flashlevel name has been tarnished. Despite the fact that the company will go on without him.
btw, the dates in those articles are wrong. If you do a whois on those domain names you'll see the current owner has owned them since 2002 and its not dash. I could only get whois information on one of the domains.
Yea, you would think Flash designers should be winning nobel peace prizes or something :D.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonsplace
I don't know what political neurons in your brains are causing you two peas-in-a-pod to compare Enron executives with this situation but I dare say you are comparing apples to oranges at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by admedia
Considering this is Flashkit and we all found this place because of Flash and this guy was a Flash somebody... his situation can probably be more accurately related to a concert pianist being caught selling $200k worth of heroin than some Enron exec who's only talent was lying and helping to embezzle $60,000,000,000.
And no, I don't think that prison should be for a non-violent criminals like the Enron gang.
Instead let's have them continue to work (16 hour days), garnish their wages and let them live off of the bare minimum (below poverty level $12k or so) that most of their victims are going to spend the rest of their lives doing because of their crimes.
Personally I would love to see a measure of "poetic justice" and for the punishment to fit the crime as it should be.
Where's King Solomen when you need him???
you are a poet LR :smoov:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue
Would it help then if the exec if he played a mean piano? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by admedia
For $60 billion he better be able to play every position in the orchestra... well! :p
Who said anything about special treatment?..if you follow the "rules" set forth by society..then by that standard you are a productive member of society...Did I say anything about paying taxes on his $200k?..no but to be in business and be public, you need to pay taxes on your wages, employess..etc..etc..
Only those of you with no real life experiences would lump sentencing a sofwtare pirate to the same place one who molests children should go. All of your "how would you feel if it was YOU he stole from"..etc..etc.. well yrou sure "quick" to condem him to "prison" and you have no knowledge of what it is really like.
And noone said having him be more usefull utilizing his skills, meant letting him design government software with critical information..etc..etc.. but web sites, graphic work for posters, awareness..anti-piracy compaigns, teaching...teaching inmates a skill that can apply, so they have an alternate route to take once released.
just because you may not agree with some of the view points shared here...doesnt mean comparing extremes (and opposites), makes your argument hold any weight.
Just saying, I really don't care who this guy is or how mad his Flash skills are. There is a good reason why I buy every software I use in my day to day operations. I am limited to some extent by my budget. Do I want to upgrade to Macromedia 8? Adobe CS2? Hell yes, unfortunately I must budget accordingly throught the legal means my business provides.
If I had an extra 200G lying around from allowing people to download warez then I could have that stuff and it might make my life a little easier. Hell I might even be able to afford to hire other designers to help me! Get a new laptop and G5 while I am at it.
I have other people asking me for Photoshop, or even a Font... I tell them to buy it like I did. You know how I feel? This guy is stealing from me too by giving himself an unfair advantage in the industry. FK him. One less crook in our industry.
So instead of trying to get "something" back..wheather cheap labor, or using his skill to better the community..you say just have him rot in prison....with murderers & rapists...and get NOTHING?
Noone said get out of jail free (at least not me)..Im saying let the punishment fit the crime. Ive always been a firm believer in letting the punishment fit the crime. I dont think most of the drug related cases should be in prison either! (yikes)...does nothing for us as a "whole" (society)....they dont learn nothing, we pay for them to stay there, no reabilitation programs..etc..etc.
already over crowded as it is..so a murder/rapist gets to go hoem "early" to make room for the new "software pirate" coming through intake....pffft...what a joke.
Im not saying he was right..or shouldnt be punished... whether he is a flash guru or a doctor.. the "inmate" obviously has a skill and it would be better suited to let the doctor help in the infirmary, or prep hospital beds....or as posted...garnish wages while doing their "skill set" for public purpose..
Its funny that most of the "retailers" you "DO" purchase your software from is probably only 50% legit anyways.. yet because they do it under a BIG NAME..everyone turns a blind eye..
4 years?..un-f*cking-real!! thats a lifetime..especially to be sitting in jail...oops..I mean prison. Technology will pass this guy by..
Changing the laws of Crime and Punishment is a whole seperate issue IMO. I probably agree that most 'white collar' and 'non violent' crime does need to be evaluated as far as allocating more lockups for the violent and sexual offenders and finding better ways to deal with these types of crimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by whispers