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Totally agree. I thnk with new technologies, a new version of flash. Develoeprs have had a play around with the new F8 features and i think that they'll be put their knowledge to good use in the coming year.Quote:
What Flash games needs now is to go to the next stage, and I think it will during 06/07.
Can't wait.
Happy new year everybody.
What a great thread ( Sorry about the bump, just wanted to add my thoughts ).
As an indy developer you'll never make really good money. Sorry but it's true. What would be a huge amount for us ( Let's use the quoted $20k ), isn't a lot for a design agency.
In theory, $20k of indy game should be better than $20k of agency game, due to the much lower overheads, but no one is ever going to pick up that sort of money as an indy.
Tom touched on it earlier, portals are the main outlet for indies, and portals work in a buyers market. We've seen it here untold times, some kid asking for a game for $50-$100, and people biting there hands off to undercut each other just to get the "job". Cheapens the market for everyone.
All this comparison between consoles and Flash is just silly imho. Two seperate user bases, two totally different platforms. To say that $x amount can be earned by console developers and that in some way should relate to Flash developers is just insane. As Flash developers we can't even compete with mobile games devs ( Money wise ), never mind EA and the like.
As to "Quality games will drive the market up", I'm still not convinced. Personally I'd rather produce 2-3 pretty good games then tie myself up producing a AAA title, which I know won't recieve it's proper value. If you look at how much HA3 was sold for, and how much it made the portal in return you'd wince.
Guess I'm just very cynical about the indy market, and seeing the Flash market from both sides of the fence, where some agency's release stuff that would be panned on here ( Or anywhere for that matter ) for more than you'd be able to sell a HA3 or Two Kingdoms for.
The only way I can see ( Working as an indy ) to make any sort of revenue is to own the portal my games sit on, hence stimunation.
Oh, nice to see DiS linked as an example of a good game :)
Squize.
in reply to Squize
but doesn't that make the case for higher quality games?Quote:
..some kid asking for a game for $50-$100, and people biting there hands off to undercut each other just to get the "job". Cheapens the market for everyone.
I agree with that in regards to consoles, not so much with mobile game devs, as to my mind its all about the end product, because surely thats what the user will be judging? Technically Flash can't compete with console games, but it can with mobile games, and I would of thought would have a larger user base. So I see no reason in theory why Flash games can't get the same dev money as mobile games. The main difference I see is the revenue model, i.e there's a clear one set up for mobile phone games, and not so clear for Flash games.Quote:
As Flash developers we can't even compete with mobile games devs ( Money wise ), never mind EA and the like.
I hear ya on that, why spend 3 months on a AAA game, when you can make the same amount of money doing a "coffee-break" game, but I don't agree with your conclusion :). How else is Flash games going to break out of the current situation, unless the quality goes up? If these portals are getting millions of plays of their games, then theres definately money there to be made, and in turn money for development of "real games". Its just a question of how the revenue model is set up.Quote:
As to "Quality games will drive the market up", I'm still not convinced. Personally I'd rather produce 2-3 pretty good games then tie myself up producing a AAA title, which I know won't recieve it's proper value. If you look at how much HA3 was sold for, and how much it made the portal in return you'd wince.
speaking of which..
perhaps, but if the games are good enough, people will want to play them (even if it has to be for free) and money can be made from advertising, which can then be ploughed back into the development, for better games, which means more people will play etc etc. So I think it is possible to make a portal that is for the benefit of all developers that are on it.Quote:
The only way I can see ( Working as an indy ) to make any sort of revenue is to own the portal my games sit on, hence stimunation.
"but doesn't that make the case for higher quality games?"
Not really. Say I make the best arkanoid clone ever and try and pimp it round the portals. If they've already got an arkanoid clone, even if it's a FK open source with lame graphics, they're not going to buy mine.
Portals won't buy the same game, no matter what the quality, twice.
People who are in the market for $50-$100 games possibly expect the world ( As all clients do ;) ), but aren't too crestfallen when they don't get it. If I were running a shovelware portal I'd rather pay $100 for a lame ass HA3 clone than pay full price for the original.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think all gaming portals rely on totally pony content, the bigger and better ones have really started to go for quality games, it's just the million and one other portals will just put any ol' crap out.
"to my mind its all about the end product, because surely thats what the user will be judging?... The main difference I see is the revenue model, i.e there's a clear one set up for mobile phone games, and not so clear for Flash games."
Exactly, it's about the revenue structure and market place. When's the last time anyone saw projected Flash game turn-over, and the last time you saw $x million quoted for mobile gaming ?
"How else is Flash games going to break out of the current situation, unless the quality goes up?"
I personally don't think it will, or at least not as it should. Take a look at this board, and how many game developers there are here. Now what percentage of the people here actually complete a game so it's in a sellable state ? Then what percentage of those games are above average ? A very small percentage.
The indy scene isn't really an industry, it's a means to an end to sell ad space. The really good indy stuff best means of making money is to be licenced by an agency to be rebranded, not to be sold as it is.
I'm not saying that I agree with the current state of play, I agree with you on pretty much everything, it's just that I've had long enough banging my head agaisnt the wall to be very cynical.
Going back to the whole AAA titles being able to break the mould and give a good return, 3 months is about the min. for a big title. So you spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for 3 months working on it. There's no way that you'd be able to charge what that's worth and get it back. Just won't happen.
"So I think it is possible to make a portal that is for the benefit of all developers that are on it."
And that's the plan with stimunation. It's never going to have shovelware, we're going to have strict submission guidelines and a style guide, but again we're not going to be paying double what the current top portals pay. One day, hopefully, but not in the short term.
Squize.
What about educative games?
Isn't it the easiest natural way for flash.
It doesnt really required much cpu - basically just quizz to solve.
Something nice will do and people will need that all the time.
Let's burn those boring class book and let's go for something flashy instead.
And I think console games will kill themselves anyway so I won't go there.
Talking about making 20K for a game, just think in a more simple way:
10 times 2K will do the same than 1 times 20K.
I am just thinking here about something like logical puzzles, the moment it's done, just lil settings have to be changed to create several versions of it.
Good for business and leaves plenty of time to play on consoles :p
in reply to Squize
well it depends on which type of game we are talking about. Arkanoid has been done to death in Flash, and done pretty well, so theres not much room for improvement. You just need to look at the successful games of yesteryear and then at what Flash games are around now, to see which of the older games can be re-done.Quote:
Not really. Say I make the best arkanoid clone ever and try and pimp it round the portals. If they've already got an arkanoid clone, even if it's a FK open source with lame graphics, they're not going to buy mine.
Portals won't buy the same game, no matter what the quality, twice.
isn't that the point though? portals with the better games will start to gain more customers over their rivals, and the portals with crap will fall away. Once portals see that higher quality games really do bring more players, then the quality will go up as they will also realise that to get these kinds of games you have to pay the developer more money.Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I don't think all gaming portals rely on totally pony content, the bigger and better ones have really started to go for quality games, it's just the million and one other portals will just put any ol' crap out.
Most games on portals that i've seen are still "coffee-break" games, and their are some retro games that no matter how good you do them will still fall into that category (arkanoid being one of them, tetris, bejeweled etc), and maybe theres a reason for that, which is that "currently" the people who play games online don't go online to play games, but to do other things, so when they do find a gaming site, they just play for a short amount of time. Hence tonnes of tonnes of "coffee-break" games on these portals.
Even though its the current situation, I think people WOULD be happy to spend longer then their coffee break playing Flash games online, IF the "quality" of the game was high enough. The reason for the "" around quality is that as this thread proves we all have slightly varying idea's of what a "quality" Flash game is. My defination of it is "Yoshi's Island" or um..Ghost and Goblins, or perhaps supersprint (retro top down(ish) racing game). Now, I havn't really seen any Flash game that is up to the quality of those games I just mentioned, which is my point. People DO pay real money to play these retro games again now (or with anyone under 20 for the first time), so why wouldn't they pay for games of similar quality in Flash online? I think they would, maybe not as much at the start (maybe £5.99 rather then £29.99) but once it gets going and the public don't see the difference between say a super mario clone on a handheld and one in Flash online I think money can be made.
yeah I agree with all that. Obviously there is money in basically selling games to agencies which are then used in campaigns, but I don't think that means theres no money in Flash games using other avenues, for the reasons above.Quote:
I personally don't think it will, or at least not as it should. Take a look at this board, and how many game developers there are here. Now what percentage of the people here actually complete a game so it's in a sellable state ? Then what percentage of those games are above average ? A very small percentage. The indy scene isn't really an industry, it's a means to an end to sell ad space. The really good indy stuff best means of making money is to be licenced by an agency to be rebranded, not to be sold as it is.
I also really believe that Flash games development will turn a corner this year. Mainly because of Flash 8 (unless adobe mess everything up by making the player a huge file size or something), and the direction its going in.
I agree, but I think the answer to this is a team working on a game rather then 1 person, even if that "team" is just 2 people. Obviously the problem with that is the more people there are working on a game, the more the money is split up, but hopefully the extra benefit of having more people working on a title and therefore higher quality result will yield a much higher return financially.Quote:
Going back to the whole AAA titles being able to break the mould and give a good return, 3 months is about the min. for a big title. So you spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for 3 months working on it. There's no way that you'd be able to charge what that's worth and get it back. Just won't happen.
Well I wish you luck with your portal, perhaps I can help in some way :), private msg me if you want.Quote:
And that's the plan with stimunation. It's never going to have shovelware, we're going to have strict submission guidelines and a style guide, but again we're not going to be paying double what the current top portals pay. One day, hopefully, but not in the short term.
Some months ago I put a post up which said something along the lines of "hey I want to start my own portal which focuses on high quality games, email me if you are interested in having your games on it".....and I got one response, which was some guy asking a fortune for low quality games (compared to what I wanted), which kinda flies in the face of everything thats been said on here (lots of people fighting over themselves to put their games on the portals for next to nothing). So I think you have a situation where you have a few portals which get all the attention from a lot of games developers, because the developers see those as the best bet for making money, and if someone new comes along their attitude is "pay me a fortune for my crap game and i'll think about letting you use it". Which is why you end up with most people trying to set up their own portals.
If a high quality portal is going to exist, the owner or creator of this portal is going to struggle for a while, they'll constantly receive crap while they hold out for quality, this has to be every portals first *****ion but over time with the lack of money coming through they have no choice but to take onboard the crap or just give up. Thus resulting in the flash market going under.
So what advice do you have for game developers?
depends what you are trying to acheive, but I would say its worth trying to create quality Flash games, rather then crap, even if it takes a good while to create them for little pay. I did a game about 4/5 years ago which was crap by todays standards, but back them it stood out, and got me noticed, and actually was a good calling card for at least 2 years.Quote:
So what advice do you have for game developers?
I would also choose to do game types that there are little of in Flash (whatever that might be), and not create the 110th pacman clone, unless you can put a new spin on it.
Presentation is important in games. Most Flash games you see have crap presentation, and its something which is overlooked by most Flash developers (me included) but its something which can have a positive/negative impact on how your game is perceived.
this might seem obvious, but many many Flash game developers spend 99% of the time on programming which results in the visuals usually being an after thought. Basically, if you want to really impress with a Flash game, put animation in it.
But I would say in general, brush up on your Flash game making abilities, as the quality of Flash games is going to increase, its inevitable, because the market is going to force it to happen. I don't think this means that in 2 years time every game is going to be running at 120fps and be in As 3.0, but its definately going to be heading in that direction, because once people see whats possible with Flash 8, and Flash 9, all the "professional" game makers (from other mediums) will migrate across to Flash game development (which is the point of actionscript becoming more and more a "proper" programming language, to tap into the larger base of programmers) and then 2 week games won't cut it.
..and if you are a programmer only, think about working with a graphic artist rather then trying to create your own visuals (although programmer created visuals are meant to be the "in thing" in 06.....i'll believe that when I see it)
You have a bad mood today :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Squize
Me too :(
I don't think that anyone needs the 10 years old game rebuilding in Flash, and i'm absolutely confident that no one will pay for this, no matter how much it will cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boombanguk
I think that the right appearence to Flash game developers today (if they want to make something big) - to get a well known old title and to make something very similar to it, filled with brand new features and kicking-ass story.
...Or to get a good sponsor :) better if it will be a philanthropist - millionaire, who don't know what to do with his millions. :)
Just kidding, i'm really upset today :(
"You have a bad mood today"
Not really, just a subject I'm pretty dismissive about :)
"to get a well known old title and to make something very similar to it, filled with brand new features"
Damn, you've found my secret ;)
That's all I ever do. There's a wealth of old games out there that are pretty obscure that will work in Flash so well ( We actually have a MAME cab in work, and we refer to it all the time ). For example, JBJ Sisters is the old Spectrum game Jumping Jack, Shooting StarZ is the skeet shooting event from Hyper Sports, Heart Attack = Dropzone etc.
People make the mistake of working the wrong way. They pick a big game, let's take Zelda as it's the most common example, and then realise that they've got to cut a corner here and there 'cause of their lack of ability / whatever and it ends up sucky. Pick a really painfully basic game, which has good gameplay and then tart it up and add all the things you'd like to see in it. I love Mr. Do! and there's no way that it couldn't be improved so much with Flash, and yet all we see are Mario clones that just suck.
It's not adding anything to the game, who in their right mind is going to play a half arsed port when you can play the original under an emulator ( Providing you own the original rom etc. :) ).
"You just need to look at the successful games of yesteryear and then at what Flash games are around now, to see which of the older games can be re-done."
Kinda my thing anyway mate :)
"I agree, but I think the answer to this is a team working on a game rather then 1 person, even if that "team" is just 2 people"
I took that as read to be honest. I think JBJ was the last game I did on my own, and that was just too painful to do again.
"Which is why you end up with most people trying to set up their own portals."
Well we've been planing this for over a year now :rolleyes:
Our reason was pretty much what you've highlighted, that it was our backlash against producing quality games and getting paid peanuts for it.
Squize.
Hmm. Cool thread.
It's interesting that this conversation has headed in this direction. I might let you guys in on something I've been quietly putting together.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Helmsman
I don't know if any of you remember the WebGamePlay concept. This was a great opportunity back then.....only problem came about the sheer amount of work that it took to get it all together, and, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, the cost involved in keeping everything running until it became profitable was going to run into thousands of dollars each month.....a cost I just couldn't cover from my own pocket………….
Fast forward to today. I've been working with a company that, among other things, does development in various areas within the IT industry. One of these areas which is just being started up is the game area.
What has also happened is the Webgameplay model has been put in front of the managers here........and they're interested in putting the financial and professional backing to get things running. We all believe that this can work out to be solidly profitable for everyone involved.
The basic concept is as follows: There are fundamental problems involved with any small developer trying to profit from the games they make. You can make an incredible game, for example, heli attack 3.........but how do you get enough people to come to your site and play? Without being on game portals, heli attack 3 would never have got the 75 million plays in 90 days that it received. And that would have been worth a bucketload of profit to the site it was on.
But, as we know, very little of that profit ends up in the pocket of the developer.
And at the end of the day, when you've put your own blood, sweat and tears into something........it really pisses you off when someone else makes all the money from it.
The idea is to get the developers to put their work onto a common portal, where they get paid proportionately to the profit they generate. You receive the majority of the profit after expenses from advertising revenue generated by the people playing your game on the portal.
This way, developers get a fair return from their work, there is a ready audience there for new games, and a new opportunity will be made for people who are serious about deriving an income from their work creating casual games.
Now…..just to get your mouths salivating……there’s going to be a $10,000 bonus paid when a game first gets one million plays in a day. That’s on top of the ongoing revenue from the advertising profit.
Anyway, there’s a bit of info for now. There’s a page you can register your interest at at http://www.emanetwork.com/modules.ph...ile=developers but please keep in mind this post is a preview of what’s coming. Over the next month, we’re putting together the look of the site, getting high score modules implemented etc. However, I’d encourage anyone who’s interested to fill out the form on that page, so we’ve got a good idea of interest.
I hope what you say is true DominumBelli. Is there going to be a board which judges what games are added to the site. If not, it'll just end up like NewGrounds, full of useless dribble.
Your idea is very very tempting though
in reply to DominionBelli:
Its good to see my idea that I posted some weeks ago, being put to good use! (developers making money from ad revenue), i've also got some comments.
so you're getting 25% of the profit? well either way $15 per day/$5000 per year just doesn't seem a lot of money for a game which of the quality it would have to be to get that many hits would of taken months and months of time to create. From what I know of CPC these prices seem low, popular portals make a LOT of money through advertising. I know currently its better then getting nothing for the people who do make these games, but I still don't think its enough of an incentive to drive people to put the neccessary time/effort into a suitable product. Now if it was $5000 per month, then you would get everyone clambering to create games for your site, and the quality would go through the roof. Also don't forget quality "coffee-break" games can easily be licensed for $5000 anyway.Quote:
It is anticipated that around 80% will be lost in data transfer costs. We will then pay the developer 75% of the net profit, which translates to $15 per day
I would definately go for more of an incentive for developers at the start, to try to get quality games on their as quickly as possible as well.
But its good to see someone doing this, and I wish you luck in your endeavours.
Naturally, all games that end up published will have to go through a quality control screen. One thing I'm thinking of is to have a beta area, where the games that aren't up to speed can be seen and played, with the understanding that they are in beta, and allow feedback to the developer.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_malee
That $5000 a year is based on, as you mentioned in your post, a very conservative CPC figure (btw, got any links to what you know about CPC revenue on game portals specifically? Would be good to see em). Also, I think you're comparing something like Heliattack 3, with 140+ million plays in 90 days, with that $5000. Obviously such a roaring success would make MUCH more than $5000 a year.......and then the income would continue in following years. I have no doubt that Heliattack 3 will continue to be heavily played for at least a couple more years. To put it frankly..........I have no doubt that the guys who made that game were compensated anywhere near what any of us believe they should have. Real figures, at this stage, are specifically indeterminable. However, the key is the model and the percentage of revenue that the developer gets paid. In this case they get the lions share at 75% of net profit. That's a damn sight more than they've seen off MiniClip. Let's hope you're right about higher CPC returns, and in real terms, this translates to far greater profits than our conservative estimate.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_malee
Furthermore don't forget the $10,000 bonus for getting a million visits in a day. I'm sure Squizey wouldn't complain if we put that into his pocket, regardless of the ongoing income :P
p.s. Squize, once this has all come together and is well profitable, I'm flying you down here to Australia for a beer, mate :)
Mate, I don't drink anymore since the Christmas party ;)
Your model sounds a lot like the sN one, although we're going to offer the options of outright payment / royalites / mixture of the two.
( I say sN in the most hopeful sense in the vain hope it'll be more than just a blog one day and actually be something. Sorry, just fed up of it being vapourware after well over a year ).
Boombanguk you mentioned that $5000 isn't a great deal, but if you stick with your model of 3 months for a high quality game, then that's $20k a year from the 4 games, which although isn't a living wage ( When converted to £ anyway ) it's still a good couple of quid, and better than stacking shelves.
Squize.
please don't put living wage and stacking shelves in the same sentence squize ;) I get the shivers.
Sounds like a good idea DominumBelli, filtering out the bad stuff. I hope it works out, cause i've been waiting for something like this. Bare with me for a second and this might sound dumb but do you think this "filtering" will decrease the attraction for early advertisers. I imagine you'd have to do alot of research and get some good figures to convince potential advertisers. I probably have no idea what i'm talking about. its late ;)
Any news on when this will happen? I remember seeing screenshots ages ago...Quote:
Originally Posted by Squize
$10000 for a million visits per day isn't a big sum. Google for example has 100 million visits per day and he cost 47 billion dollars :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DominumBelli
That would be about 3 times more then average income in my country. You would be rich here :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Squize
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by tonypa
in reply to DominumBelli:
Portals are reluctant to give this kind of info out unless you are a prospective advertiser. But it can vary greatly depending upon who the portal is and how desperate they are for ad spend!Quote:
(btw, got any links to what you know about CPC revenue on game portals specifically? Would be good to see em)
It seems money from ad's is the way to go, its how most of the big portals make their money, purely through the amount of people who go to their websites. So if a paticular game is getting lots and lots of play's then obviously its helping pull in people to view an ad, and should get a percentage of the money that comes from that ad being there. I was surprised that when I mentioned this idea in this thread before, no one really picked up on it (apart from Squize), now I can it was because everybody its secretly working on their own gaming portal! so its cool that you was brave enough to make what you are doing public.
Its about time more money went into Flash game development and I think your idea is a good way to help with that, what you might want to think about as well, is contacting well known Flash developers directly (not just through this thread) and trying to get some of their games earmarked for your own website.
Just image that the portal receive one lil crapy dollar by hit and you'll understand how much $10,000 is a joke.Quote:
Now…..just to get your mouths salivating……there’s going to be a $10,000 bonus paid when a game first gets one million plays in a day.
"ok, lil fellow, we take your game, use our amazing skills to upload it onto our site and give you 1/100 of the money"
How come I ain't salivating but feeling more like :crazy: ?
lol, lemme know who'll pay us $1 every hit, and I'm there :)Quote:
Originally Posted by artlink
As I've mentioned before, our figures have been based on a very conservative 10c CPC. So we'd need 10,000 (assuming one click per 1,000 hits) hits to make $1. With a higher CPC, the developers proportionately make more.
Hope that clears things up for you :)
aw c'mon! stop that :angel: attitude.
It's all about money and how much can be made from those game developers keeping them in the illusion that their stuffs don't deserve more anyway.
Just compare what a portal makes -all in all- in compare of what they gave to game developers.
I've never done any flash apps below 10.000 dollars and will never, and believe me they were 100 times less complex than a game. Even sold a stupid pong for 5K. But portals aren't willing to pay the prize so you won't see me there.
Keeping game developers in the ignorance of the market and the big money being made out there is what keeps the system alive.
A last word for my pips out there: if you're selling a game 100$, they will never call you when they'll need a 10K$ game, just because for them you'll ever be small fish.
Then again it has nothing to do with the game but with the money that will be made at the end of the process.
No one is loosing money, believe me, except the fellow who sold his stuff 100K.
So, I aint gonna cry for you guys having to spend 10K more for 1000K hits: if you do so, you know exactely why you do it and how much you'll cash at the end.
It's not about becoming a billionair developing flash games, its just to be respected for what you do. So I just earn enough money for what I need to live, never been fooled by companies, refused jobs when the money was a laugh, and got 2 settlments from 2 major companies out there because they stole my stuff (500K for each).
Just mess with somebody else!
Hope that clears things up for you too ;)
Guys this is slipping very close into an all out chat about cash, which is something we've always done well to avoid before, so please let's not start it here.
Squize.
ok sorry for that...
Can somebody tell me then how to rotate a Mc...
Nah! just kidding! :cool:
Lol I almost pissed my self larghing... Dats was funny as hell.Quote:
Can somebody tell me then how to rotate a Mc...
Nah! just kidding!
Yes indeed developing usefull game is not easy... when you think you've done enough, there's almost always room for improvements and new ideas to consider for the next release... My chessgenie (PGN chess game viewer) which I unleashed in our chess club website is one of them...Quote:
Originally Posted by andross_88
Actually, my biggest problem with flash game design is interest. When I get a good idea in my head, I always jump on it. Unfortunately, after completing half of the game, I lose interest in my project. In such a case, I am not motivated to do anything creative. Right now, I've been working on a game called Alien Brutality and I'm 1/2 of the way finished (I've only been working on it for like, a week). But now, I'm quickly losing interest. I've already begun work on Alien Brutality 2 despite the fact that the first game ISN'T EVEN FINISHED.
Does anyone else have this problem? Or maybe I've just got the attention span of a 14-yr-old (which I am). Hmmmm....
Well I guess that what really keeps the interest of the project is to have a DEADLINE. So if it's not a commercial project, just promise the game to someone you know asking them to beat you up if you don't finish it for the end of the month. Otherwise yeah I can understand the interest fading away, it's more a human thing than 14 yo stuff.
Artlink
You have made several very accurate points, relating to how much game portals make, and how indie developers are ripped off. If you had bothered to read properly though the original concept you might have garnered that this is exactly what we are trying to break here. Also, the responses, in that post, from many respected persons in this game forum seem to indicate a certain level of respect for this idea. Furthermore, there is real hope that it can prove to be a solution that will break the rather dismal situation us developers have found ourselves in with the major portals.
Without bothering to go through everything all over again, there is a single, simple point to understand; The developer keeps 75% of the profit, after expenses. Therefore, the more money the portal makes, the more the game developer makes.
This may surprise you, but some here on this board are interested in helping out others (tom, tonypa, squize, just to name a few) and it is a shame when someone feels the need to tear down the efforts of others who wish to assist in the fulfilment of peoples' hopes and dreams. Many people here would love to be able to convert their passion in game creation into financial profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by artlink
I understand your cynicism. However if you were more informed of how our organisation operates, you would realise we do not need to rip off indie developers, because our profits comes from other sources. At the end of the day, you are saying exactly what we are saying, other than you are too closed minded to accept that there can be an organisation which is prepared to find an answer where everyone wins. Lucky for us any individual with a cynical nature hurts no one but themselves
Well apparently we cant talk about money here, so this cant go anywhere really.
Love that "after expenses" line. That's the first line we've learned to absolutely remove from any contract, otherwise you never see the money, because then everything goes into expenses. My dear friend, I managed two multimedia companies over the last 12 years, so I know how to keep the money in the house, and that was while working with multinational companies.Quote:
75% of the profit, after expenses
So yeah it's not being cynical but being experienced.
I aint gonna develop anything for a portal because they aint ready to pay what it's worth. So boo them!
But they aint the bad guys, anybody not ready to pay what something is worth it will get the same treatment.
But it's a free world out there, so good luck for your portal.
And I mean that.
To tell you guys the truth, i resigned from my regular job, and made Flash Game Development a fulltime thing. A 3-digit price tag for a game i can make in a day... i'd say that's a big business opportunity. I already have two Flash Game Development companies. The first is just like youre average Flash Gaming Site, where we also sell customized games. The second is currently developing a MMORG just like Tactics and Dofus. It is in my belief that Flash Games will continue to be a part of the online community. A search of Flash gaming sites on either yahoo or google is proof of the growing number of players, and what some other people (the clients) will do (buy games) to take advantage of this growth.
So you churn out a game every day or so, sell it for <$1000 to a "sponsor" ?
Boombanguk, that's your answer to why games are so under-priced and why the quality isn't higher than at present.
Squize.
I love that "sponsor" bit as well!
Sounds to me like droping a coin for a begger in the street.
If people don't even name honestly their stuff, it's smells bad...
to Squize:
was going to post this on your own blog, but thougt i'd run out of room so here I am :)
so you do agree then that higher quality Flash games will sort the men from the boys (in some cases literally), its just that you don't see it happening because of the current (and I think, that you think it will always be) messed up state of the Flash games market?Quote:
I'd like to say that this will just strengthen the case for improving the quality of Flash games, that there will be a clearer divide between the dross and the great, but I just can't see it.
if thats what you think, then I don't agree. Isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg situation?
Yes I agree, that a lot of companies and "shovelware" portals are willing to pay <$1000 for low quality Flash games, and that creates a distortion in the Flash games market, but if more "high" quality Flash games started appearing, games which are similar in graphics and playability to many "old" retro games (and no I don't mean "pong" i mean supermario world, sonic, etc etc), then they would stand out from the 99% of Flash games crap which is out there, the public would see the difference, and in my opinion be more willing to shell out money.
And whether people agree with that point of view or not doesn't matter, because its going to happen anyway. The Flash development platform is getting more and more sophisticated, which in turn means the "potential" for more and more sophisticated Flash games. And if the potential is there, "real" games making companies will take up the chance to make high quality games, simply because they will see the money making potential in it.
So unlike some people on here :), I think we're going through a transitional phase, where we go from "amatuer" home grown 1 day Flash game crap, to (in the words of wesley snipes) "something new and improved".
To Squize:
re: your comment on your page regarding Otaku
um...isn't that just then going to create even MORE shovelware?? which I thought you hated?Quote:
It just occured to me that otaku will be used to generate a lot of games very quickly. It's quite possible that a lot of sponsor sites could earn a lot of money from it.
Erm what exactly is Otaku? Any links? :I
I'm not a master of this... as I'm just getting into making Flash Games for proclamation of doing so and fun. I have a full-time job so I couldn't focus on doing them for living wage profits anyway.
But... from what I'm reading... if all the money went into advertisements... wouldn't it be possible for the game developer to put advertisements directly into their game and just cut out the middle man.
Surely at every startup or gameover you could show a sufficient advertisement to generate interest for ad companies.
Pardon me and i apologize for bringing this up (i just don't wanna be attacked by making this comment).
But the problem here is not exactly the price of Flash games, but the ecomical state from where the game developers are coming from.
USD500 for a Flash game may not be much in most economies, but for the average worker in my part of the world, that's about 3 months worth of income. If i sell a game which took me a day to finish for USD500, that's a lot money. And USD500 may not buy you quality in your part, but it sure is quality here. It may not be a "complete" game (multiple levels, dazzling intros, 3D graphics), but in terms of flawlessness in graphics, scripting, UI, highscores, it's all there. Quality is not all about how good something looks, quality is mostly something that is "fail" free... to most extents.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonypa
That would be about 3 times more then average income in my country. You would be rich here
Anyway, as i said... the problem is the world economy. Buyers take advantage of the cheaper products coming from cheaper econmomies. But hey, it's not my freakin' fault i live in a third world country!!! Unless a developers' union or something is formed to state that all flash games must be top-quality and sell for no less than USD5000, then i guess that we will all continue to see close to no-quality games sold for a measly $100.
Nuff said... do i have to hide now????