God-damn !!

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

Dont tell me the Bible(again)

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I actually suggested a couple of other sources as well. But, since you mention it, yes. I would think that the bible would be a pretty good place to start learning about what the teachings of Christianity are rather than making up fairy tales in your head to knock down on forums. Isn't that the intellectual equivalent of WWF wrestlers ripping their shirts off and mugging for the camera? Awesome!

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

Sorry, no time for entertainment books.

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You mean no time for learning about a subject you want to debate.

Good luck with that!

FlashLackey, I am trying to bring a practical example into light and you keep bringing books.

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....making up fairy tales in your head to knock down on forums

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Fairy tales and me?? lol.. the suffering, poverty, diseases are all fairy tales? To which planet do you belong?

What you are basically trying to argue is that nobody can say that God is kind unless someone witnesses him doing something kind.

That isn't practical. That is moronic.

Like I said, you're awesome. That's what you have been after since you started this thread. Do you need to hear it from everyone else as well?

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

Fairy tales and me?? lol.. the suffering, poverty, diseases are all fairy tales? To which planet do you belong?

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You.Are.Awesome!

You can mark the thread resolved now.

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

Fairy tales and me??

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Yes. You!

I realize that it's difficult for someone as awesome as you to see. But, since you have admitted that you are actually ignorant of the subject you are debating, your concept of the subject is based on your imagination (ie. fairy tales).

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

God has to exist to do something. I never said God does it.

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You missed the entire point of my post. Your response quoted above defines God as a janitor cleaning up after us, ignoring the almost universally accepted concept of God as the creator of life. If you can't recognize that as one of the essential and common principles of all monotheistic belief systems, then you have so little understanding of religions and faiths that you are in no position to question why people believe in them. Take a class on world religions.

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

Sorry, no time for entertainment books.

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You ask a question regarding the existence of God, and questioning why people believe in him (or her), yet you refuse to establish an understanding of the foundations of people's beliefs. That's like writing a paper without doing any research.


Let's put this into perspective, shall we? You start a thread ranting and raving about how people can believe in God when there is injustice in the world, triggered by a tragedy you witnessed. It's a common feeling. Some of us (poorly) attempted to give you an answer. But you clearly weren't interested in one. Your had your mind made up and somehow thought that despite millennia of theological and philosophical debate on the subject, everyone who believes in God is an idiot and is blind to injustice in the world.

You rejected all recommendations to educate yourself to understand why people believe what they do. That, my friend, is called ignorance. I suggest you heed my advice above and find a class on world religions, unless you want to come across as a foaming-at-the mouth idiot on the matter.

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

hanratty21 , this is not your first time. Gerbs you want this to be ignored again?

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Oh, daddy can't help you now.

Dude, I am not trying to mark this thread resolved. It will be like trying to make the world population speak "one" language.

I am trying to accumulate opinion whoever believes in God. What is that one big sh*t that makes them believe so. So far i couldn't find one tiny crystral except books and beliefs. Since FK is one big desert I hope I find atleast one who can support his/her belief with a genuine point - something practical?

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But, since you have admitted that you are actually ignorant of the subject you are debating, your concept of the subject is based on your imagination

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Whaaat?

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What you are basically trying to argue is that nobody can say that God is kind unless someone witnesses him doing something kind.

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Not exactly witness. Atleast he can hide behind a tree and save a drowning infant? alteast bless people who suffer(as in your fairy tale books)

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hanratty21 , this is not your first time. Gerbs you want this to be ignored again?

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I am being polite in my question(honestly), but emotional.

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

I am trying to accumulate opinion whoever believes in God. What is that one big sh*t that makes them believe so. So far i couldn't find one tiny crystral except books and beliefs. Since FK is one big desert I hope I find atleast one who can support his/her belief with a genuine point - something practical?

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No you aren't. Do you seriously think that anyone will believe that this is what you are trying to do? This is nothing more than a springboard for you to draw attention to yourself. You clearly have no genuine interest in learning about religion.

Then again, maybe you have some deep insecurity about religion and this is your "safe" way of learning about it without damaging a fragile ego.

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

Whaaat?

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Did I stutter?

PAlexC, please dont heat up this thread. My question why people believe in him does have a valid reason behind. Yes, I am being strong at it but I am not trying to bring it all down with no point from my side.

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This is nothing more than a springboard for you to draw attention to yourself. You clearly have no genuine interest in learning about religion.

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No interest in religion? I belong to a place where "God and Religion" are like "Heart and Soul" of the country(I dont know why)
My house is infected with people buzzing God's name 23 hrs per day. You know the money my parents spend in God's name? I could have bought 3 ferraris and 2 lamborghini's with that money.

Being around religion does not qualify you as having genuine interest in this thread. PAlexC said it better than I have already. You've demonstrated that you have a personal agenda and it is not what you claim it to be.

It's a good thing to know that there are kind people like you in the world who would use money wisely on 3 Ferraris and 2 Lamborghinis instead of giving it to a church that will most likely use the money for unkind purposes.

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

PAlexC, please dont heat up this thread. My question why people believe in him does have a valid reason behind. Yes, I am being strong at it but I am not trying to bring it all down with no point from my side.

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I am far from heating up this thread, I'm trying to point you in the right direction by explaining the distinction between empirical science and faith, that is crucial to the question "How can God exist if he let's bad things happen to us?" That's not coming from me, or from any religious dogma. It a fundamental premise on the well-documented and centuries-long philosophical debate on the manner, which you choose to ignore. Your reaction is to poo-poo every contrary response to your stance.

I've taken multiple classes on world religions and have a minor in philosophy. I've been in classes with plenty of caustic kids like you who think they know better. I've heard comments like yours come from students in these classes. They typically dropped out or failed because they were too arrogant and lazy read, ponder, and take other people's perspectives into account in an effort to answer their questions.

But, if you think you know more than most 19th century theologians and philosophers because you saw a guy get hit by a truck, far be it from me to convince you otherwise.

Flashlackey I like that second para :) but dude, i wouldn't really buy cars for that money neither give it to the church(for sure)

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But, if you think you know more than most 19th century theologians and philosophers because you saw a guy get hit by a truck, far be it from me to convince you otherwise.

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I have no idea about the great philosophers and theologians and the very nice "you" and i wont say that i know everything but i certainly know what my heart feels and which is very true. The guy getting hit by truck is only an example of "ant over elephant".

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I've heard comments like yours come from students in these classes. They typically dropped out or failed

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People who bring out questions from heart get dropped out of class? How sad?

PAlexC, Please look at this image and tell me that "God exists and is kind"
http://www.sheepoverboard.com/passin...ng-child-4.jpg

Deepak, I just now saw the post that might have offended you; I kindly request that all participants keep the tone away from disrespect. This should be considered an official warning.

And with that said; it's just not Africa, nor is it just right now. People have starved in the past. People will do so in the future.

I get your compassion; however you seem to be unwilling to actually read the Bible. And that defeats the purpose. Religion is for the mind and spirit. You're talking about the physical - and that's when your mind and spirit are in the right place can you affect those that need help via charity and good deeds.

Anyway, let me say this. PAlexC's post was perfect. That perspective is closer to my own. And honestly, I'd rather be doing something than just sitting back, behind a keyboard and doing nothing. You want to change the world, then help the people like in your picture. You'll be amazed that they perhaps exist within 20km of you. There's homeless, sick, starving, mentally sick people everywhere.

You're stuck on this Africa stuff. I've been there. It hurts your heart. It makes you wonder where God is in all of this. But this is the physical... the right now. It's not permanent. Thus... it's escapable. An unkind God would keep it going all the time... sorta like Hell.

Regardless; you're proving to be more emotional than rational and willing to discuss. Like I said earlier; there will be no answer that you will deem worthy unless it comes from you.

So what do you think... God is unkind? Then what's the answer?

I didn't want to put my oar into this one but felt that i should now that its a bit further in.

If God was kind and loved us would he / she / it have let my daughter die when she was born? Thats my question why was it chosen that she should die... sorry but thats just a sore spot for me.

I will let you carry on with your arguements...

And following after chris, comes moi. I don't often indulge in 'heated' debates but I'll offer an advice.

It seems you're starting to doubt your faith in god and if that is so, you should seek to replenish yourself with in depth knowledge of your religion. Or for that matter, gather in depth knowledge of as many religion as you can find - with an open mind. And for that matter, I doubt a 100 or 1000 post thread will ever relinquish that thirst of yours.

Oh, and good luck, if you believe in luck that is.

Thanks Gerbs.
Regarding "reading a bible(or any other spiritual books)" thing - To some extent I know what it has in it. It certainly can not fetch me an answer except brainwash me into having faith in god. It can have a million stories to tell this and that happend in the past when God came down to earth. But at present what is really happening in front of our eyes when we are all alive? Why not believe in the truth thats happening around you rather than holy books which may or may not be true. Why be unsure?

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And honestly, I'd rather be doing something than just sitting back, behind a keyboard and doing nothing. You want to change the world, then help the people like in your picture. You'll be amazed that they perhaps exist within 20km of you. There's homeless, sick, starving, mentally sick people everywhere.

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Well said. And thats what i too mean. Its we humans who are God who can "practically" help people who are in need.

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So what do you think... God is unkind? Then what's the answer?

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Where is the question of god. Guys i am terribly sorry to keep repeating this but why make me repeat. Sorry if I am hurting your beliefs but I swear thats not it. Please take this positive and help in finding a possible reason?

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If God was kind and loved us would he / she / it have let my daughter die when she was born

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Really sorry to hear that. But people in here would read it and may say God is still being kind(for some unknown reason termed "faith")

Fine, lets halt for a minute. Before scanning through the existance of God, can i atleast expect a genuine answer to this:
Lets just "assume" that God exists and is sweet and kind. Now God will be someone who is not selfish and with no rotten human mentality right? So he only wants us to love each other and be good? Then why the hell we dont do "that" and instead run behind God praising him. In other words why should we do things which he doesn't even expect from us? Believing in God and praising him expecting him to bless us sounds to me like some kind of "bribe"ing. I praise you and you bless me. I will commit a sin and pray, you forgive me??

By loving,caring and helping each other but not believing in god or praising him will make God Angry??

So why??

You're seeking for evidence of something that's not been proven to exist. God.

Trust... read back to PAlexC's post about faith. It's spot on.

Yea Gerbs, i read it. It says....
...concept of God as the creator of life is universally accepted and if you can't recognize that as one of the essential and common principles of all monotheistic belief systems, then you have so little understanding of religions and faiths that you are in no position to question why people believe in them.

So its an universally accepted "belief" written on books that god exists....
.... and hence God exists ??

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something that's not been proven to exist. God.

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alrite, now why prove something which is not there. oh no this is getting into a loop

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

...In other words why should we do things which he doesn't even expect from us? Believing in God and praising him expecting him to bless us sounds to me like some kind of "bribe"ing. I praise you and you bless me...

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Well replace 'bribe'ing with faith and you somehow capture the essence of faith within religion, to continuously do good and spread goodness.

We hold onto that faith for the potential promise of good (eg. heaven) in the afterlife. How strong one believes in this promise, well that is faith. Is this promise real? Who knows? One simply believes and keeps faith.

How much one is willing to work towards this promise, well that's human will. And wills are bended and twisted through temptation and seductions and the surrounding environment, unless you are strong enough (in your faith), and unless you are 'educated properly' within the religion, to withstand them (temptations).

I can't tell you, make you believe or give evidence that God exists. I learn (in my religion) and I come to realise and so I believe he exists. Then there are some of us who share that beliefs and some who don't. I don't doubt God, and that is my beliefs - mine to judge and hold from my own studying and reasoning. And different minds will judge and hold differently.

I sincerely hope you find yours.

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We hold onto that faith for the potential promise of good (eg. heaven) in the afterlife

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So one who believes in God but does all sins goes to heaven??(because he is constantly being forgiven by god no matter what) And the one who doesn't believe in God but does good things goes to hell??

GoogooBoy will you be able to tell me that you will fail to go to heaven just because you dont believe in god?

i hope god smites you for being a ******.

If you want me to believe in a god, you will have to first prove to me that I actually exist, and that this in not just some dream or virtual reality.

No one has been able to even prove that yet.

i don't believe in god.. and i still think that if god existed i would kick seventeen bells of **** out of him / she / it for taking my daughter.. she did nothing wrong so why punish her?? Oh and if i did believe and was meant to rely on faith then quite frankly even faith would be completely taken away.. there was a guy who said that to me after it happened.. i knocked in 3 of his teeth for saying that god had a plan for us all and that i should have faith.. tosser.

I think the concept of faith needs to be revisited. It's the biggest problem.

You want proof? You'll never get it. Of that, I can be 100% sure. So deepak, random... you'll never get your proof. Ever.

No booming voices from the sky. No miracles where Coke turns to Pepsi. If you decide to believe, then do so. If you question it, then do so. If you don't believe... then do so. Nobody's forcing you to believe or disbelieve in anything.

You want to know where God is... fine. I'll share my personal opinion. God set things in motion, he ain't coming back. Earth is like a windup toy. Once set on its path, why interfere? Either the toy works or doesn't. It'll continue or it'll stop. It'll break or it'll spin on forever. But why interfere when there is no need.

The problems of the world, man-made. Thus, the solutions are man-based. And to turn to faith only for a physical situation - starvation, abusive relationships, you don't want to speak French any longer - then guess what? Use your free-will, that big man-brain of yours... solve it.

Or don't.

Chrismitchell, sorry for your loss :( If anything, I do understand your position... when I lost my father, it made (still makes) no sense. And anger like no other has made me drop my faith to a point of where what's rational, I'll continue. Blind faith, never. And if asked, I'll actually explain things that make my base on religion empathic (like say, to my Mother), while maintaining a bit of apathy (towards and from God). Dunno... my faith gets me up in the morning, but it also angers me. I'll have to deal with that. And in your situation... dude, I understand fully.

Thanks gerbs.. its very hard to deal with the "faith" thing.. especially while burying her and all the other bits ... but anyway.. life goes on.

deepak, your're so close minded, that you won't even admin how closed minded you are.

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

I have no idea about the great philosophers and theologians and the very nice "you" and i wont say that i know everything but i certainly know what my heart feels and which is very true. The guy getting hit by truck is only an example of "ant over elephant".

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That really sounds a lot like "faith". You believe that, not willing to research or study the subject, not willing to accept what others try to explain, because you're heart tells you. In a similar way, other people choose to believe something else because of different experiences they had. Not because they have proof God exists, not because there's any evidence, not because a book tells them there's a God, but because their heart feels that.

I think every single person here that is a 'believer' has a different concept of God. Why? Because we're talking about an entity that we don't know, how it looks, how it dresses, how it speaks, how it thinks. There's no scientific evidence, he doesn't post in this forums, so how would you expect to get a precise answer? The existence of God for people is based on what their hearts feel, not in evidence. And maybe they're wrong, but you could also be wrong: maybe that guy hit by a truck deserved to die. What if a couple of days after the accident, you saw in the news that he was raped 20 kids 2 months ago? Would you feel the same way? Would you still think that his suffering was unfair? What if God saved 1 guy in Africa, feeds him, and helps him get into college to get a good education, and a few years in the future he goes to your country, and your boss decides he will replace you. You lose your job, and now you're miserable without a dollar to spend....would you still think saving that guy was fair, or good? What if God made you choose: if I save this woman, she'll give you aids in 2 years....do you want me to save her? do you?

Not everything is black and white as you paint it. Poverty and hunger and death are not always a bad thing. Just imagine a world where everybody is happy and all they do is have sex and make children, no hunger, no religion, just happiness...at some point, there would be so many people on Earth that the planet would start dying, and with it, you and the rest of the human race. There's no perfect balance in our world, it's just like that.

Also, as I think we're talking about the same God, maybe you forget that most people that believe she exists also believes that she has a very evil friend called the devil, and he's trully evil. So maybe God is benevolent and loves us and wants to help us, but on the other side we have the devil doing evil things. I think most religions believe in this duality, and not in a perfect world where everyone is happy: god/devil, ying/yang, light side/dark side.

I really don't see why it's so important to know if God exists, if she's good or if we're all mistaken. In the end, if you knew without a doubt what's the right answer, would it be so important? Would it change your life? Would you stop doing the things you do everyday if you knew God exists? I think you wouldn't, and that's fine. You see the world from your perspective, but not everybody sees the world the way you do.

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Well said. And thats what i too mean. Its we humans who are God who can "practically" help people who are in need.

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So wait a sec, you're saying you believe God exists, but he/she/is is really all of us? A lot of people that believe in God think he's everywhere, in all living things, in every one of us, in the air you breath, the water you drink, and the poop you poop, so it doesn't disagree with the concept of 'we are god'.

Based on what you've written (like thinking the reading the bible can brainwash you) I think your problem is not with the existence of God, but with the church. I also agree with PAlexC and go study, research, and stop making your own fairy tales.

fairy tales are all anyone has to offer ...but some people like 'em and it helps them to believe that it all has some purpose.

I believe it is all a big experiment ...give some random species on some random planet in some random galaxy a big brain and opposable thumbs and see where it leads.

davidp

Are you guys talking about some new video game in this thread? Sounds like a good game.

</ignorant post of the day #2>

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Originally Posted by deepakflash

So its an universally accepted "belief" written on books that god exists....
.... and hence God exists ??

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Wow, you're thick. No, that is not proof that God exists. It is however a basic tenet of pretty much all belief systems. How can you question faith without attemting to understand it. Do you even understand what philosophy and theology are? Studying a religion is not the same as practicing it. You study it like you would algebra or ancient cultures in Brazil.

You asked a question, but clearly aren't interested searching for an answer. Again, this is what is known as ignorance.

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Originally Posted by hanratty21

Are you guys talking about some new video game in this thread? Sounds like a good game.

</ignorant post of the day #2>

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Grand Theft Epistemology

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It is however a basic tenet of pretty much all belief systems. How can you question faith without attemting to understand it. Do you even understand what philosophy and theology are? Studying a religion is not the same as practicing it. You study it like you would algebra or ancient cultures in Brazil.

You asked a question, but clearly aren't interested searching for an answer. Again, this is what is known as ignorance.

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Okay, though I am not interested in reading spiritual books, since most of you seem to be strongly driven by "faith in books" I am curious to read through a few lines(not by buying one) but if you could kindly share me a link on the web?

Argonauta, I thoroughly enjoyed reading through that post(#72). You have great imagination and you truly worth becoming author of a fantasy-fairy-tale book.

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deepak, your're so close minded, that you won't even admin how closed minded you are.

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Yea, holding on to what I feel can make you think I am being close minded, i can understand. So, I open up my mind now. I am asking you to kindly direct me a link on web(if possibe) that has this magical power to drive me in the path of blindfolded faith.

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That really sounds a lot like "faith". You believe that, not willing to research or study the subject, not willing to accept what others try to explain, because you're heart tells you. In a similar way, other people choose to believe something else because of different experiences they had.

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No sorry, what i believe in is more than having just a blindfolded faith on books. It atleast has a "practical" thing in it.
I am not expecting you to prove that god exists, but why believe so? Ok but I got the answer for that now. Its the book.

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maybe that guy hit by a truck deserved to die. What if a couple of days after the accident, you saw in the news that he was raped 20 kids 2 months ago? Would you feel the same way? Would you still think that his suffering was unfair? What if God saved 1 guy in Africa, feeds him, and helps him get into college to get a good education, and a few years in the future he goes to your country, and your boss decides he will replace you. You lose your job, and now you're miserable without a dollar to spend....would you still think saving that guy was fair, or good? What if God made you choose: if I save this woman, she'll give you aids in 2 years....do you want me to save her? do you?

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Fine example of extreme imagination. It can all be said in one word as nothing more than a "coincidence". Its only people like you with such imagination keep the faith going(wow). The african who finishes college and comes to replace me was awesome.

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Just imagine a world where everybody is happy and all they do is have sex and make children, no hunger, no religion, just happiness...at some point, there would be so many people on Earth that the planet would start dying, and with it, you and the rest of the human race. There's no perfect balance in our world, it's just like that.

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Dont worry, there is always nature to do the "balancing" job in form of cyclone, volcano, earthquake etc,etc

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Also, as I think we're talking about the same God, maybe you forget that most people that believe she exists also believes that she has a very evil friend called the devil

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"God" character isn't finished yet. Now why bring in character No:2 "Devil". But yes, Character No:2 is an interesting one because it takes up all the exceptions of "God" and thereby bringing in a perfect balance. A real good shock absorber :)

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I really don't see why it's so important to know if God exists

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My friend, are you kidding? Half of the world has become a burial place just because of this "god" thing happening. "Terrorists" are an example. They bring hell down to earth in name of God.

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So wait a sec, you're saying you believe God exists, but he/she/is is really all of us

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I mean to say: if all you believers are so fond of this term "god" then it can only be your conscience.

(Once again)A very simple question, I need a straight answer.
Assuming that God exists: He only wants us to love each other and be good? Then why the hell we dont do "that" but instead run behind God praising him.
By loving, caring and helping each other but not believing in god will take you to hell?? Is that what your faith means?

I think it's safer to assume that God does not exist. That would satisfy your opinion better than anything else.

oh no dont say that :D

No. I mean it. Now you'd be forced to deal with what can be fully explained; human nature only.