[test] some sort of RPG engine ( calling for Blink, Strille, Andree ? :))

Here is a graphic update of the engine ( was trying few things to see how my models, here the little house, would fit in our 2D world ) - still no depths nor angle calculations

http://grafikdezign.free.fr/flashkit/screen2.jpg

http://grafikdezign.free.fr/flashkit/engine2.htm


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tonypa > Thanks, i will have a look at it,but this version doesn't deal yet with the z-mapping floor, or i missed something ?

bogeybot > good, i just wanted to have things cleared on day one :D
I tried the game you were talking about ( Clouds of Xeen )
you can find it here :
http://www.abandonware-france.org/ltf-jeu.php3?id=48 ( sorry, in French )
and use DOSBox to launch it ...

Anyway, so far it is not using Z-mapping nor Raycasting : i cannot find my way out of the town, but the town is tile-by-tile deplacement ( a la Dungeon Master )
However, i get the point : my reference was Daggerfall ( http://www.svatopluk.com/xroads/df.html ) and eventough i'm aware that Flash wield some technical limitations, i think we could come pretty close ...

The Andre-Michelle source files are included in his Gamepackage :

http://board.gamepackage.org/viewtopic.php?t=3
( download the latest zip, at the end of the thread )
Then again, not being able to open it, I cannot comment on the usability of the source for our specific purpose


PercyPea > I picked Blink's method because of the way the whole world is built on the 2D map then created in 3D ( Do i make sense ? ) this allows me to spawn easily objects without touching the code - Of course, you are right : multiple "big" zones are the way to go to make the game area bigger, but this adaptation was way out of my league :)
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The file size to that point, isn't a concern really, as the engine is quite experimental : it will requier broadband and a fast machine ? so be it :) ...I know the upcoming game won't be a Miniclip best seller :) It is more to have fun with something a bit different than usual ... If something viable can be made out of it, then optimization will be the next big concern :)

...and it gave me the occasion and the motivation to try myself to do 3D gfxs :)...

PercyPea - Yes, dropping down islands on the screen cuts performance a fair amount, however, you can reduce this impact by doing two things; 1) keep the draw distance as short as possible, and 2) structure your map so that the possibility of many "content islands" being on screen at any given time is low. You can also load/unload these islands in and out (instead of _visible) based on what should appear in the view window.

...

I have not tried this, so if anyone has, please speak up. Instead of "moving" the map around the viewing plane, say we kept its x/y/z static and only allowed rotation. Inside the map graphic run a barebone gotoAndStop tile engine (7x7) ... walking forward and backwards runs the movement function (taking account for direction) of the tile engine, turning left and right (in 90 degree chunks) runs the rotation function of the zmapping engine. It appears this is how RPGs in the early 90s functioned.

I imagine it will still be fairly cpu intensive for flash ... but if its managable, you've got pretty much an infinite map size. *shrug*

Easy way to do the swap depths

Find the code that adds the objects to the screen.
give each object an individual 'depth' variable.

Ie, i'm guessing its a for loop that adds all the trees/buildings etc.
Before the for loop define a temporary variable and set it to '1'

each time you go through the loop increase it by 1 and assign it to the objects 'depth' property.

ie, tree1.depth =1, tree2.depth =2, house1.depth =3 etc.

I'm going to work on the basis that you never have more than 100 objects running at once.

On the code that updates the position of the objects on the screen, simply add this line

tree.swapDepths(int(tree._y)*100+tree.depth)

where tree is the name of the object thats currently being moved.

Because the objects are all based on a flat plane, this will work. You can even use the same code on your walking man character.

If you need any help, let me know.

Though i'm off home from work now so wont be able to check this forum again till tomorrow.

Pea

p.s. If you're not worried about filesize, then strilles method is definately the way to go. However..... even then you cant use too big a map due to memory/loading issues.

ie, i had a muck around with a map made of what looks like 3x2 big 1000x1000 squares. In actual fact it uses 15 pictures instead of 6 as you have to overlap all the images. Tis norty.

Hiya bogeybot. I believe (though im not yoo sure) the method you are suggesting is the method that strille used to allow bigger maps.

As you drive/move through the map, when you approach the end of the bitmap, the graphic flips to frame 2 which has an extension graphic, the next part of the road/path.

However. Doing this means that you have to get right to the end of the graphic before it flips to the start of the second graphic in frame 2. So you need to get an overlapping graphic (tile) in between so the switch isnt as noticeable.

If you go to strilles site (http://www.strille.net/), number 4/22 under the 'works > graphics > flash' menu is his zmapping engine. If you drive around and look at the horizon you will see what looks like the rest of the track popping in. Whats actually happening is that the single track graphic is going to frame 2, where there is a graphic that represents the overlapping of the graphics in frame 1 and frame 3. (hope that makes sense)

Ie. If you have a track that is 3000x1000 pixels. At first glance it would look like you'd just need to split it up into 3 images of 1000x1000 pixels. (based on the assumption that the engine can't handle bitmaps bigger than that).

But... you'd actually have to have 5 images. the 3 main ones, and then two extra, one that is 50% of the first image (the right half) and 50% of the second image (left half) and same again for the right half of the 2nd image and left half of the 3rd image.

If you suddenly decide you want a map which looks like its made up of 3x2 pictures (3000x2000 pixels) instead of 3x1 as above, you arent simlpy looking at 10 images (6 normal and 4 overlapping) because you now need overlapping images in the vertical aswell as the horizontal.

I think 3x2 actually requires 15 images!! 15 images of 1000x1000 pixels = big filesize no matter what sort of compression you use. And even then, a 3 x 2 grid (6 main individual tiles/frames) isnt much to run around in.

3x3 needs 25 images!

Now addmittedly you can reuse the frames and loop through an infinite landscape, 15 images to make up the 3x2 grid, you only actually get 6 individual tiles that you can choose from.... and thinking about it now, you wont be able to swap them around in place, unless you have already made overlapping tiles for all possible combinations....

So you're talking even more images/filesize.

Ultimately.... at the end of the day, to do a big zmapping landscape, i think we need to wait until Flash 8 and hope that the 'cache as bitmap' feature will allows us to create an image out of 1000's of nice and small tiles, cache it as one large bitmap that we can then feed into the engine and not worry about the performance issue of overlaying tiles :)

But we'll have to wait and see.

Just was your 3d model lux, very nice, especially if you're just learning 3d!!

One thing i would mention, (though i'm guessing you know) is that make sure you dont rotate the object around its axis when you render it for the game, rotate the camera around the object, so that the walls of the building always have the same lighting.

Pea

Hey !

I tryed to integrate your depth sorting, but there must be something i'm having wrong : it works fine, but i have some "flickering" on certain objects ( see the house and the tree for example )

I've uploaded a "light" version of the engine, with simplier images, so it's easier to download, here :

I've commented the parts i've added ( actually, not much )

The big difference between Blink's engine and this version, is that, in this version, the minimap moves around the main character...

http://grafikdezign.free.fr/flashkit/engineV3_2.zip

If anybody feels to correct, improve what i've made, it would be nice :)

EDIT : Yeah, i'm aware of the lighting on the 3D model : i did all that in Swift3D ( i don't know 3Dstudio yet ) and i haven't found a way to define a regular camera path around an object yet so i took the easy solution to rotate the object itself :D )

This board has some issues. My previous message was posted at 8am EST and didn't show up until 1pm EST. Half a discussion went by already.

Lux - It's been so long since I played that game, I may be dreaming things up. Sorry :) What you have there looks pretty sharp though. I went through Blink's engine a bit to see what you were talking about in reference to editing 2D maps to create zones. I'd much rather have a system that works off an array, and build a map builder to make import/export those arrays. It'd make your life much easier. :) I'll work on that.

PercyPea - you're right, the graphic overhead would be very high and would require a lot of work. However, if the goal is a "real" rpg, it's going to be, by default, a large download. Lots of graphics for NPCs, buildings, enemies, items, sound effects, story text, etc, etc. No matter what method you use, this thing is going to be too large to be a simple browser preload. A compressed download/install would probably be necessary -- either that or smart streaming system.

And really, I don't think the map size that Lux has there right now is too bad. If you have a decent map "zoning" system in place that zones you prior to reaching a couple hundred pixels from the edge of the map and loads you in at the corresponding edge on the next "zone", then it would probably work out great.

I'm playing around with an object system right now that dynamically loads/unloads objects based on their coordinates so that tracking all those objects around the map doesn't burn half the game resources ... I'm implementing model rotation for good measure to see how the FPS hold. I'll put it together and link it when I get home.

you should change the distance from the screen to the eye. It seems like its too much (600?) but try to reduce it to 450. If you rotate now the objects will move towards you very fast on the sides. Its like they rotate in an ellips shape and not a circle.

http://grafikdezign.free.fr/blink/engineV3_3.zip
it's got angle to camera (i think). run it and have a look around, you'll see a box (it's the grass mc). i don't think it's too accurate but you might be able to get on with things while i look at it.
things i changed;
1. depth sorting based on distance to camera
2. alpha (although i don't think i made it any better so change it back if you want) on this point i think it might be better to use set transform to "tint" the mc's rather than adding transparency.
3. angle to camera (run around the box a bit) the grass mc has a rotated 3d box (63 frames) which is about a 5-6 degree rotation. note that you can have any number of frames and the engine will adjust
4. put the dude in with the objects. although i still gotta work with it the objects can get in-between the camera and the dude (go to the box, not too close and then turn)
5. the dude is not hit tested with the minimap so he'll stop when he hits something (you might wanna re-work the minimap shapes to match the size/shape of the object) i still gotta work with this too coz sometimes he gets stuck.
anyway that's about it. very buggy so i'll try and clean it up now
thanks
blink

2 suggestions:

-For the minimap, make the player icon pointing up constantly, and the minimap revolves around the player.
-Create original graphics to give us an idea of what you'll come up with in the long run (or are you planning on keeping the current ones?).

Sorry if you've already answered these questions.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Joshman_123
-For the minimap, make the player icon pointing up constantly, and the minimap revolves around the player.

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No, i like it more this way! Now it doesn't need additional compass. Also the "rotating minimap" would be the screen without the perspective.. so whats the point.

Now You see straight away in what direction You're moving.

luxregina:
Ground with "lights" and "shadows" sure heated the spice. I like it alot!
:)

Thanks a lot Blink ! it look awesome !!!

I am playing with it, and hopefully will be back today with an update :)

Stay tuned :)

Curse you Lux! :)

You've got me all excited! I think you may be on to something here. The performance is still an issue IMO, but damn it looks sweet so far.

I'm getting about 6.7 fps now. I don't suppose you could implement collision detection? It would be very easy - as long as you can figure out the size of each object's base relative to the character. Also, you could probably (with a bit of triggy) export the buildings at multiple camera angles and have them turning around as you go by. Because otherwise you'd always see the same side of everything.

Ha ha ha : Why should I be cursed for getting you excited ? :)

http://board.flashkit.com/board/


http://grafikdezign.free.fr/flashkit/engine3.htm

Ok, the rendering of the house is still temporary, as well as the lighting ( the model is still revolving around itself, instead of the camera, etc ...)- also, the filesize could be taken down ( now 550K, but i've been lazy about the optimization of the house images )

I'm also aware that the sky isn't looping perfectly

1) The angles seem a bit "off", specially when the object is close : anybody has an idea how it could be corrected ?
Is it the focal that is too wide ?
The pivot that should be moved elswhere ?
Does Blinks's calculation take distance in account ?
I tried playing with various settings, but so far, i haven't been too successfull

I know that it will always look "off" because the prerendered model doesn't take perspective deformation in relation with the focal - but i would be curious to know your point of view : would this type of game engine be appealing to you ?
All feedback welcome :)

I've duplicated the "house" several times for testing purpose, and added to possibility to "strafe"( A and D )

lux,
regarding focal point. the focal point and all perspective calculations a determined by the z-mapping system. the 3d calculations simply try to match the perspective of the z-mapping system. so you cannot change the focal point without adding slices to the z-mapping (i think), adding slices to the z-mapping will really kill the fps.
the "close in" angles are as a result of two things.
a: the rotation increment of the object
b: most importantly objects will tend to stretch as they approach the viewer. i guess we could try to scale/rotate the object to try and simulate that.
ps: one design trick you can use is to make your objects round rather than square. mabey little round houses with thatched roofs.

Lux, love the engine so far but alas, more suggestions:

When you stand next to an object and rotate the camera the object moves. The ground pixelates like crazy. I don't know if that's unavoidable but it'd jack up the quality a fair bit if you could fix that.

This game engine is coming along very nicely. ONE MORE SUGGESTION THOUGH... I have a feeling this would be hard or impossible, but it would be extremely cool if you could rotate the camera around the player (eight different player angles?) I don't know how you would do it since you've used the arrow keys for movement, but honestly, I prefer the RuneScape style engine. I hat the game itself but the engine is tre` cool.

Hope this helps ;D

Bitmap objects....
I know You'll be battling with these later on. The small objects are ok, seen those in Doom and in others FPS's, but more complex objects like houses... i don't know. The change in "perspective" in near and far will affect soooooo much. I noticed that it is impossible to "stand" in front of a Chimney. Once You got there, rotating camera will "displace" the house. Well...
Maybe it isn't so important.

BlinkOk > I did several tries yesterday - i was wrong about the focal point : it "seemed" to me that the problem could be lessen by moving the pivot point of the objects layer behind the camera : for very close 3D rendered objects ( like the house for exemple ) if i'm standing by a house, just be rotating the camera, i can see the side of it and the back of it , this shouldn't be - i might be wrong : i will do more tries

Round objetcs will exists ( like the trees ) and these won't be rendered - Objects like the house are meant to be rare ( 63 images increase the size of the engine ) but are also meant to add a nice realistic touch in the engine - I could also cheat by restricting the player to move to close to them ( barriers, etc ) : After all they are meant to be mainly buildings, so a game could pop a different screen ( shop, dungeon, etc ... )

Joshman_123 > The ground pixelate - the ground is a whole pixelating thing : that's more or less the side effect of Mode 7 :) ... Rotating the camera around the player could be done, but this means that i would need additionnal images for the player, hence increasing the size of the whole for a something that wouldn't impact the gameplay : this is Flash, not Director ( Runescape is in shockwave ) : all the 3D prerendered images aren't "free" : they cost a lot in filesize - and what is the point of turning the camera around the player ? how does it impact the game ? it make sense in real 3D where your character is likely to be "dynamic" ( clothes, equipement, etc ) but make less sense in our case ...

I'm actually thinking getting rid of the character to go on First personn view, just to save the few images on the character ...

TeroLebe > You are right, if the close perspective shift cannot be corrected, the best would be to limit it "in game" ( see above )

What happened to you bogeybot ? I would be curious to see your zoning system now :) ...I will have a closer look at Strille's source :) - i'm getting quite excited by the perspective of this whole thing ( yeah, i know, i'm a bit late, the Mario Kart thread is a bit old :D )