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03-19-2006, 06:57 PM
indivision

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer

Yes they do, Chinese have even posted in the CL. Get with it, and quit making unsupportable claims and I wouldn't be inflammatory at all. Your living in some middle earth dreamland if you think the US is still the land of the free and should export our brand of government to the rest of the world. With our own government so blatanly crooked, shame on you. Nobody wants it.

Here we go with the "brand" concept again. Having the ability to say what you want about your government without going to prison for 10 years is not just some alternative form of freedom. Its oppression.

But, why should I show you support? You just dismiss it whenever I do:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=16402

There are plenty of articles there of others being imprisoned for serious time for nothing but criticising their government.

Honestly, I think your burning hatred for Bush corrupts your ability to soberly reflect on anything else political. Ive said it once and I'll say it again. BUSH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT CHINA OPPRESSES FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
03-19-2006, 07:06 PM
indivision

Its ironic that anti-Bushism creeps into every political subject you get into. In fact, you would be first in line to be going to prison if Bush were the leader of China and you were a citizen there. You think its ok that others arent allowed to do what you are now, for the sake of what? Winning an argument?
03-19-2006, 07:14 PM
Ask The Geezer

Quote:

Honestly, I think your burning hatred for Bush corrupts your ability to soberly reflect on anything else political. Ive said it once and I'll say it again. BUSH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT CHINA OPPRESSES FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Honestly, I think your blind support of such a worthless mongrel like the shrub blinds you to what's really going on in the world. You want Google, MS and others to tow the line here, yet the shrub is making deals with the Chinese government to sell us further down the river into debt every chance he gets. If his regime wants democracy for china, then get off the god damned pot and quit making deals with them that only benefit him and his rich cronies, and for sure quit ragging on companies trying to make a buck. Who's side are you on, anyway? If MS, Google and the other big players are trying to get some of our own back, then good on them, however they do it. If they aren't selling military secrets, then it's none of the governmnets god damned pry nose business.

And you obviosly don't know squat about your own countries history. We have put people in prison for speaking out against the government many times, and are still doing it. We even imprisoned a whole race once not too long ago, for doing nothing but being Japanese americans. If you think the US does not keep political prisoners, try opening your eye's to some black american history some time. Just cause it isn't you doesn't mean it isn't happening.
03-19-2006, 07:28 PM
TallGuyLittleCar

are you sure that bat didn't give you rabies?
03-19-2006, 07:29 PM
indivision

i guess the all caps doesn't make a difference. :)

this has nothing to do with Bush. your fantasy about myself and Bush is just that, your fantasy. talk about him all you want. but, please refrain from drawing me into Bush-mania unless I am talking about something Bush related.

i thought we were talking about companies and China. not Bush.

search companies standing up for freedom of speech in a foreign company is not a Bush line. its not even a uniquely US line. its also a UN human rights definition line.

the US isnt perfect. there are many things we've done that are condemnable. that doesnt disqualify me from observing other misdeeds elsewhere. its like you want me to say uncle and condemn the US as a whole or adopt a view like yours before you will allow me to criticize anything. i think i could start a conversation about corn-bread that you would find some way to illuminate my secret agenda for promoting the Bush line.
03-19-2006, 07:29 PM
indivision

Quote:

Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar

are you sure that bat didn't give you rabies?

i wasnt going to go there. but...? ;)
03-19-2006, 07:35 PM
admedia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer

Honestly, I think wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah worthless mongrel like the shrub wah wah wah wah wah wah wahw ah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah the shrub wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah his regime wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah.
03-19-2006, 07:36 PM
Ask The Geezer

Maybe, but it made me smart enough to know that any thread here about our government must include the leader of the one party system we are dealing with. I don't see how anyone can say it's bad for some private or public held company to make deals with the governments they have offices in just because our own crooked government says so, especially when ours is just as bad.
03-19-2006, 07:39 PM
TallGuyLittleCar

Quote:

Originally Posted by indivision

i wasnt going to go there. but...? ;)

meh, you live in L.A., rabies could only be an improvement. By the way when the great quake hits and you're swimming to arizona... it will be bush's fault.
03-19-2006, 07:41 PM
indivision

well. i didnt intend to make it about our government. i just dont think it must always go there. we've already gone there.... a lot. theres a lot of good discussion to be had without going there.
03-19-2006, 07:42 PM
indivision

Quote:

Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar

meh, you live in L.A., rabies could only be an improvement. By the way when the great quake hits and you're swimming to arizona... it will be bush's fault.

haha. but im not from here and im moving in a few months! i hope i can be forgiven.
03-19-2006, 07:53 PM
Ask The Geezer

Quote:

well. i didnt intend to make it about our government. i just dont think it must always go there. we've already gone there.... a lot.

I'll admit, I do hate what bush has done to this country in just 6 years. But that is not why I bring him up all the time. If you have any discussion about any government office, above the state level, then bush has to be in it. With a majority everything now, and him being the head of the repug party, how can he not be part of anything federal government? He is afterall, the leader of it, for a little while yet.
03-19-2006, 08:12 PM
flipsideguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by indivision

Haha. Flipside, why even bother starting with 'unfortunately'? How disengenuous.

It is unfortunate for you because you'll forever remain ignorant to the fact that so few people want your way of thinking applied to their lives and beliefs. It is also unfortunate for the Chinese, Iraqis, Iranians etc because your (as in the collective ignorant American) use of militarism as a means of spreading your so called freedoms on us (as in the the rest of the world) causes us far more harm than good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indivision

Ad hominem.

It's clear as day. Of course you would say this. You are unable to even consider alternatives to your way of thinking, due to your heavy indoctrination. You simply don't know any better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indivision

Yes. Thats so true. The US has simply ignored the country until lately.

Oh, it's going to change. Your President even mentioned them in his last big speech didn't he?

Quote:

Originally Posted by indivision

Ok. Human rights violations are justified by profits? Anyone who cares about human rights in China is just engaging in McCarthyism? :rolleyes:

Why all the fuss over a search engine and not oil-companies? My point was, all the 'news' that is now popping up condeming China's human rights record is as usual part of a propagnda scheme by your government. I don't see any articles on Saudi Arabia's, or Qatar's human rights records.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indivision

If you think there is a 1 to 1 relationship between government regulation of speech between the US and China, you are the one who is kidding themselves.

Do not twist my words. Simply saying that a country that 'renders' prisoners to secret prisons in countries with lax torture laws should not preach about human rights to anyone. Since you're so adament about pointing fingers at China, I suggest you first question your own country's human rights record. This last line was pointed at you personally, Indivision [Edit] Let's also not forget about Guantanamo, and why it is located outside of US soil.[/Edit

Quote:

Originally Posted by indivision

Yes. I, by myself, represent the entire US and it's entire government. Anyway, you've completely misunderstood if you believe this. I don't want us to be part of China's decision making. That doesn't mean that I can't condemn some of their governments actions and companies that aid them in those actions.

See clarifications on when I'm referring to you, as in Americans, and to you personally.
03-19-2006, 08:35 PM
indivision

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipsideguy

It is unfortunate for you because you'll forever remain ignorant to the fact that so few people want your way of thinking applied to their lives and beliefs. It is also unfortunate for the Chinese, Iraqis, Iranians etc because your (as in the collective ignorant American) use of militarism as a means of spreading your so called freedoms on us (as in the the rest of the world) causes us far more harm than good.

Ad hominem statements aside, lets be clear about who you are talking about. Which Chinese are you referring to here? Which are the unfortunate ones, the pro-communists or those who have spoken against it and are in prison?

I'm suprised that you would go the route of setting your arguments up with theoretical us vs them scenarios. Sorry pal, the world isnt that black and white. Dont kid yourself that your opinion here is representative of "us" and the rest of the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipsideguy

It's clear as day. Of course you would say this. You are unable to even consider alternatives to your way of thinking, due to your heavy indoctrination. You simply don't know any better.

Clear as day? Do you know what an ad hominem argument is? Your response to me pointing out an ad hominem is to make another... brilliant!

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipsideguy

Oh, it's going to change. Your President even mentioned them in his last big speech didn't he?

Haha. I was being sarcastic in light of that statement being so obviously false. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipsideguy

Why all the fuss over a search engine and not oil-companies? My point was, all the 'news' that is now popping up condeming China's human rights record is as usual part of a propagnda scheme by your government. I don't see any articles on Saudi Arabia's, or Qatar's human rights records.

The news isnt just popping up now. Maybe you are just now paying attention to that aspect. Remember Tianamen square? Not sure how old you are but China has a long history of human rights violations that are well documented, not by my government alone but by independent journalists and watchdog agencies all over the world. Im not sure where you are looking for articles but there are plenty about Saudi Arabia and Qatar as well.

Show me where oil companies are helping to oppress people and I will condemn them. Theres no company partisanship going on here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipsideguy

Do not twist my words. Simply saying that a country that 'renders' prisoners to secret prisons in countries with lax torture laws should not preach about human rights to anyone. Since you're so adament about pointing fingers at China, I suggest you first question your own country's human rights record. This last line was pointed at you personally, Indivision [Edit] Let's also not forget about Guantanamo, and why it is located outside of US soil.[/Edit

Hello! Knock knock knock. Anyone in there? Im not a country. Theres a human being over here. An individual making an observation. Who are you to tell me what observations I can make on the basis of what my country has done. Im not taking you as representative, thankfully, of the entire country of Sweden or even of all the Swedes I might disagree with. Id appreciate it if you gave me that luxury as well. Its the same thing as earlier. You want to discredit all of my beliefs because we dont share one that you are passionate about.
03-19-2006, 08:41 PM
indivision

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer

I'll admit, I do hate what bush has done to this country in just 6 years. But that is not why I bring him up all the time. If you have any discussion about any government office, above the state level, then bush has to be in it. With a majority everything now, and him being the head of the repug party, how can he not be part of anything federal government? He is afterall, the leader of it, for a little while yet.

I totally respect you hating him. Im glad that we're a country were we can have that kind of disagreement and not risk going to prison. I just think theres a lot going on we can talk about and even agree on besides Bush.

For instance, I agree with you that the government should be trimmed down to practically just "printing money and filling pot-holes."
03-19-2006, 09:39 PM
Ask The Geezer

Quote:

For instance, I agree with you that the government should be trimmed down to practically just "printing money and filling pot-holes."

You just ruined my day. :(
03-19-2006, 10:01 PM
flipsideguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by indivision

blah blah blah

Well you got one thing correct. I do tend to first and foremost see you as a representative of the average American, and believe me that isn't a compliment. But to be fair, it is not a useful debating method, and only clutters my points.

For the sake of redudancy, regarding your 'ad hominem' comment(s), I see it as a fact that you are a product of your society's one-sided global view.

Do you think China would be better off liberated, like Iraq?

The overall point that I have been trying to make here is that you, your country, your military and your press should just let China deal with their problems on their terms. If a company wants to enter their market and is asked to adhere to their rules and laws, it is for that company to make a choice. I rather they obey the Chinese laws than to try to shove 'freedom of speech' down their throats, whether they want it or not.

By your way of logic, companies should not invest in the US, because that money will be used to invade soverign nations and kill 50,000+ civilians.
03-19-2006, 10:49 PM
indivision

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer

You just ruined my day. :(

haha. why? because we agree about something? what am i? darth maul?
03-19-2006, 11:05 PM
indivision

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipsideguy

Well you got one thing correct. I do tend to first and foremost see you as a representative of the average American, and believe me that isn't a compliment. But to be fair, it is not a useful debating method, and only clutters my points.

Oh, what a troubling dilemma that puts you in your majesty! Insulting people who deserve it gets in the way of you acting intelligently.

* small violin *

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipsideguy

For the sake of redudancy, regarding your 'ad hominem' comment(s), I see it as a fact that you are a product of your society's one-sided global view.

* violin shifts tune slightly *

And you are the enlightened insulter? I must admit your contribution here is difficult to do much with since it consists mainly of insults and very few substantial arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipsideguy

Do you think China would be better off liberated, like Iraq?

I think the Chinese people would be better off with a Democratic government. But, I think thats highly possible without military action as it was in the Soviet Union. If thats what you're meaning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipsideguy

The overall point that I have been trying to make here is that you, your country, your military and your press should just let China deal with their problems on their terms. If a company wants to enter their market and is asked to adhere to their rules and laws, it is for that company to make a choice. I rather they obey the Chinese laws than to try to shove 'freedom of speech' down their throats, whether they want it or not.

And your overall point doesnt make sense since myself, my country, my military and my press are not the only ones that oppose Chinas human rights violations. In fact, the rest of the world (that you put yourself with) is on board against those violations. I agree that its for the company to make a choice entering that market. I believe they made the wrong choice in this case. Thats making a choice for themselves, not forcing anyone else to do the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipsideguy

By your way of logic, companies should not invest in the US, because that money will be used to invade soverign nations and kill 50,000+ civilians.

The difference is that doing business with China does largely encourage Democracy. Engaging in anti-democratic actions does not. By my way of logic, if you believe the tripe you mentioned there, you can do business with the US but not send troops to help in Iraq.
03-19-2006, 11:37 PM
flipsideguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by indivision

but not send troops to help in Iraq.

Thanks for further proving my point. You really believing you are "helping" Iraq.

As for my comments, they are a direct reaction to your superiority complex. My contributions obviously hit home with you since you so adamently pursue to discredit them. God forbid, someone might actually read my posts, see beyond the insults, and start thinking of you and your likes as mere sheep for believeing everyting you're told.

Let's talk about freedom of speech for a minute here. Is banning images of fallen US soldier's coffins from media a violation of Freedom of Speech? How about banning Brittish documentaries from all US networks? Granted in many instances it is a matter of self-censorship, but the goal is clear. To deceive you!

Your dodging the pertinent parts of my posts and only focusing on the insults is done with a certain level of eloquence, I must admit, but don't think I don't notice.

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