[LINK] Useful info on licensing/sponsorship

It is difficult to value a flash game. Games are worth different amounts to different buyers... and most buyers will try to pay as little as possible so if you don't haggle or get lots of offers the money you get can can be low.

I've literally seen a game get sold for $X dollars... where I know another portal (I've asked them for confirmation) would have paid 10X (10 times as much money) for the exact same thing.

Having said that... I'm still very new in this scene. I would love it if anyone would send me a PM (or email) sharing the details of their transactions. I'd be willing to share further details on AR3 as long as you agree to not post them publicly.

If I get enough information hopefully I can write up some general 'pricing guidelines' to help people decide what their creations are worth.

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discussing pricing in a forum such as this could be considered an attempt at price fixing which is illegal

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you'd have to expand on that somewhat for me to understand why

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Originally Posted by Squize

I know we can all argue that it's market forces so we have to compete, and someone doing a game for free isn't going to be any good, but it still causes bad blood on here, and that defeats the object of this board imho.

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Originally Posted by mentuat

for sure, that's a valid opinion, but how do you know? we're not allowed to talk about costs!

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as Squize said we´ve had it a lot in the past that someone would ask for a price and then people would try to beat each other stating a lower sum than the one before, so yeah, the decission was made out of experience from the past.

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Originally Posted by mentuat

Quite how it would defeat the object of this board when the majority of users are trying to make money from developing flash games is beyond me...

understanding the worth and costs involved is an important part of development..

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sure and with time spnt here you should know several developers who do flash stuff for a living and you could just drop em a mail or pm to ask them.
You´d wonder how many such pms i get and i try to reply to each as quickly as i can (note: doesn´t mean that everyone should write me a pm now ;) there are many experienced people around here ;) )

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Originally Posted by mentuat

you're right, I'm a user and you're a moderator and you do a wonderful job of moderating this forum but I think censoring posts about costs is out of your jurisdiction and detrimental to the forum :)

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thanks for the friendly words, i´m glad to hear i´m not doing all bad :)
The way it works with moderating is that a moderator can censor/delete anything he sees as inappropriate. If there´s an ongoing discussion with a moderator you can´t settle you can contact other moderators for their feedback.
I´m doing what i´m doing cause i think its benefitial to everyone here, as i said i´m open for different opinions though, so if more people come up who want open price discussions here than ones who think they wouldn´t have a positive impact, well, i´m eager to allow em.

It's very difficult to talk about costs without actually bringing up how much you earn.

Just as a hypothetical example. Say my day rate is £400 ( $800 ), which isn't outside the boundaries of possibility freelancing in London.
So once I say that, everyone here knows how much I charge a day.

Further down the line, I'm really stuck, so I ask for help. It's quite possible a lot of people reading my thread may actually think, hang on, he's earning a ton of money, let him find out himself. Or, I'll help you, $200 please ( I mean that's only 2 hours work to me, wouldn't even notice that, and if it saves me 8 hours pulling my hair out then it's worth it ).
And suddenly the board isn't a group of people trying to help each other and push the common knowledge forward, it's a commercial environment.

Ok, I'd really like to think the board as a whole wouldn't be that crappy, but it could cause some resentment when others here are selling great games for $500.

What I personally think would be a lot healthier, would be more of a guide in terms of sponsorship sites. Like, "I wrote this <game>, and I got paid >$1500 by <portal>".
Then everyone has a benchmark for their own games, a vague idea of what can be earned, and the better paying sponsor sites will get more submissions and hopefully it would snowball so everyone is making money more in line with what they deserve ( And the huge number of sponsor sites which just offer insulting amounts will be left with the dross until they improve what they offer to developers ).

Oh and Tom, you're not the only one who gets a ton of pm's about charging advice ;)

Squize.

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What I personally think would be a lot healthier, would be more of a guide in terms of sponsorship sites. Like, "I wrote this <game>, and I got paid >$1500 by <portal
Squize.

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I really like this idea! In fact there are some people doing this on NewGrounds thread where they are also reviewing different sponsors.
The Sponsor Review Thread


I've sent an email to CrazyMonkeyGames to see if he would mind be publicly sharing what he paid for Asteroids Revenge III. I'd love to build a list like this on Flash Game Sponsorship... but I think I should take part if I do this. :)

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And suddenly the board isn't a group of people trying to help each other and push the common knowledge forward, it's a commercial environment.

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I so agree with this,- the reason I get pissed off of some threads or certain slangs is because it sometimes gets to commercial.
On the other hand I think it´s just as wrong for people asking others to fix their work - wich occours quite frequently (at least I get asked that sometimes), without actually wanting to learn something.

I like this board because I can exchange interests and knowledge with others and help people- but not because I have nothing else to do or want to work for free.

One of the things I'm DYING to know is what you guys are talking about. I'd love to know going rates for games. I think that's an important motivating factor to MAKING games. Right now, if I think all I'm going to get out of games that I make is $150 and a pat on the head, then I'm not really going to try too hard to push out fast, quality work. However, if it turns out I can make over $500 or something like that (hypothetical, please don't censor) then I might be WAY more willing to work harder on my game.

Secondly (yes I know there was no "firstly"), I don't know if you guys thought about this, but being undercut on your prices might be caused by uninformed game makers also. If I create a game that's worth $800, and I don't know what to charge for it so I ask for $150, I've effectively just undercut everyone else. That could easily be solved by informing people of ACTUAL prices and what they should expect for their game.

I understand the dangers of mentioning prices and actual amounts on this forum, but there's also danger in people with no direction. There must be some way to inform the greater masses of going rates and such without requiring them to PM someone. I like Squize's idea of a "guide in terms of sponsorship sites".

"I think that's an important motivating factor to MAKING games"
"I'm not really going to try too hard to push out fast, quality work"

Sorry mate, and I know I'm going to sound a hypocrite, but making games shouldn't be about making cash, that's just a happy side effect.
I've released a few games that I'm not proud of due to external reasons, and it sucks.
If it was just about the money I'm sure I could churn out an average piece of crap a week and not be much worse off than I am now, but that's when cash becomes the motivating factor over enjoyment and pride in your work.

I didn't mean to cross examine your post and rip it apart, but I think if people just go into this with $$$'s in their mind rather than the end title, they're never going to push themselves to make bigger and better games, and just get stuck in the rut of pushing out average content.

To apply some maths to the mix of working out what a good price should be, taking $800 as what you consider to be a good price of a game ( As I've said in previous threads, it's all relative. One persons $100 is the next persons $500 ), the min. wage in the uk is around $10 an hour.
So to earn just a min. wage is 80 hours, or 10 days full time work. Flash games development is a skilled job, so roughly double what you should be earning an hour, $20, so that's now 40 hours, a normal working week for $800.

So using the above, if you've spent 20 hours on a game, that's $400.

Now that's just a very very vague way of working it out, also you've got to realise that there is a perceived value to a game. Just 'cause it took you 40 hours, it may only take someone else 20, so no one will pay you double just 'cause you took twice as long to do it.
If you give yourself an hourly wage though you can at least begin to calculate what you should be getting, which will avoid you accepting $150 for a $800 game.

Squize.

Ok, I've started a listing of games and how much they were sponsored for:


How Much Can You Get From A Sponsorship

Please PM or email you experiences if you are willing to share.

Unless a moderator states it is OK to post the information in this thread please do not put any $ amounts directly here.

All I need is a simple:
Game [game link] was sponsored for X by [portal name]

[directed to squize]
Now THAT is the kind of information that's useful. As simple as that sounded, I'd never considered that charging for a game could be based on an hourly wage. Thanks for that part of your post anyway.

As for the other part...

I actually enjoy making games (not that I've made any yet). Maybe making games shouldn't be about making cash TO YOU. Just because you do something to make cash doesn't mean that you're not passionate about it. It doesn't mean that you can't be innovative. I would love to be able to make games all the time but realistically I have other things in life I am REQUIRED to do. If I can get MONEY for making games, then that makes it a very viable alternative to those OTHER things. So, while you may make games purely for your own enjoyment (with a side benefit of money), others may make games because they enjoy it AND because they need the money... SO, money is a very important factor to me and probably others as well. Don't confuse my wording... just because money is AN important factor doesn't make it THE ONLY important factor.

Which is fair enough, it's not as if I've got the butler cleaning my gold boat right now either, but I'm just trying to emphasis that if you've always got one eye on the money it's going to show in your work.
You can tell a game that's a labour of love, and when time has been spent on it, and you can tell a game that's been turned around to make a dollar or two.

Sponsorship is all well and good, but if you want actual clients who pay a lot more, then you'll need a cv consisting of games, which like my underwear, literally drip love.

Like I said, I wasn't digging you out, but since there's been more money in Flash gaming ( Not greater amounts per game, just more sloshing around out there ), a lot of people come to the board thinking they can make a quick buck after d/loading Flash off p2p.
My point was more a general one, rather than aimed just at you.

Oh and in case there's any ambiguity, I do enjoy making Flash games, but it is also my full time job, has been for just under 3 years now, so yes I do need to make money from it too, but for a lot of projects where I have a lot of creative input I'm quite happy to take a hit in the pocket to ensure it's as good as it can be.

Squize.

Knowing how much money can be made with Flash games can be an extremely motivating factor, whether you love making games or not. And even if you do love it, it may not be worth spending your time learning to master it if you can't benefit monetarily from it.

I'm a bit with mentuat in that I believe the outright ban of price discussion is a bit too much. There are definitely cons but there are pros as well, Taidaishar made a good point about that.

Unless I'm mistaken, you can always ask people what they think your game is worth and have them PM you with their opinion. But I could be wrong.

[Edit] Oops, sorry. I didn't realize there was a third page where you guys all said that already. Haha, Ignore this.

btw, I LOVE your name Al. It's frikkin hi.... wait for it... larious!

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you'd have to expand on that somewhat for me to understand why

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The short answer: YES (at least in the U.S. where many of our members are).

The U.S. law specifically makes discussion of pricing between competitors (all or some) a federal offense. According to either Marshall Kragen or Lewis Rose (both practicing lawyers), several brokers in DC were successfully prosecuted for simply discussing an increase of fees at a dinner meeting.

When, where, or how doesn't matter. Any discussion of pricing by a group of people within the same industry is illegal in the U.S. The feds call it price fixing.

I don't know anything about it, but surely that law applies to business owners prosecuting their employees for discussing financial issues with rival companies? You surely can't be arrested for asking a rival restaurant owner how much they charge for a chicken sandwich!

Ali

Would anyone be interested in a game auction site? Developers could upload locked demo versions of their games, and interested sponsor sites could browse and make offers. Something like this could probably be implemented in very short order, and could streamline the sponsorship/license process immensly. The actual negotiations could still be done off site between sponsors and developers. We could make the portals compete against each other, instead of the devs lowball each other.

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I don't know anything about it, but surely that law applies to business owners prosecuting their employees for discussing financial issues with rival companies? You surely can't be arrested for asking a rival restaurant owner how much they charge for a chicken sandwich!

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Actually, you probably could, but I doubt anybody cares. (These sandwitch prices are ridiculous! >:O)

AMD was actually caught a few months ago for price fixing. I doubt it is really that strict though. Probably only if price fixing is intended.

For prices, money and other business-related talk, please use Boardroom section of FlashKit:
http://board.flashkit.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=43
Check the stickies there for common FAQs.

If you have question about FlashKit rules, please use Feedback section:
http://board.flashkit.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=44

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Originally Posted by 5TonsOfFlax

Would anyone be interested in a game auction site? (...)

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I actually think it would be a solid idea if implemented correctly - specially for starting and/or occasional devloppers.

I think one major problem with this type of thread is that Flashkit harbors 2 different populations : occasional, amateur devloppers, and full time professionals : the two populations have very different interests when it comes to releasing a game on the market - amateurs want to release it no matter what, and get it out on as many sites as they can, while pros will be more concerned about striking a good deal.

I think Flashkit shouldn't only be professional centric though - this isn't the goal of this board - so I agree that an happy medium should be fine to allow starting devs to be able to judge what to expect for their products : that is part of the information a game-making community should provide, IMO.

Also, game portals that are reading us should be involved in that type of discussion as well, their input would be valuable, and not only in terms of money, but to stress the level of quality, gameplay, etc they are looking for...
Unfortunately, most of the threads started by portals resemble this one : http://board.flashkit.com/board/show...=707319&page=2 and I am yet to read a non-pimping thread :(

Last thing I wanted to agree on was Squize comment : it is true that the last thing we want is to see more unpolished games where the main concern isn't to make a nice game, but a quick buck or two - but there again, I'm not sure giving a little more pricing information would nessecerly influence the trend or not. I'm sure that the big bucks go to polished games anyway!

I never licensed any game, but I've been told, and red in many places, that armorgames is a pretty good sponsor with good money and great input : any FK members feedback on that ?