damn itQuote:
Originally Posted by mr_malee
Printable View
damn itQuote:
Originally Posted by mr_malee
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
My bad... by *NEW* games in Flash I meant the games most of make, which are for the most part very straightforward 2d games. Stuff that would have been possible with 80s arcade hardware, but 90s consoles/computers/whatever. My point is that it's not necessarily cutting edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by lesli_felix
What's interesting about that is all the new ideas that pop-up with this less than cutting edge technology. Which is reason that I think that there will be some awesome new ideas brought to the table with Flash 3D even though it won't be cutting edge.
Did you even look at the demos in this post? :p All of the demos I've seen suggest that it's capable of doing PS1 quality graphics, like all of the demos that render's been doing. The SNES' FX chip couldn't even render textures! (Flat shaded polys in the house)Quote:
Originally Posted by tomsamson
You're right that the PS1 has some hardcore 3d hardware so maybe Flash can't match it in sheer processing power. But the advantage in Flash is that you have practically unlimited memory in comparison to how little VRAM PS1 has. That's why these demos can look so good with such low poly counts, hi-resolution textures. Not to mention few PS1 games even went as high as 640x480 resolution
Back to what I was trying to say earlier, by downplaying what Flash is capable of nothing worthwhile will ever surface. Until something comes along and says "I told you so" (like if render ever made a full game out of his demos ;) )
There were snes games with later fx chip version that had texturing :)
And no,with flash you don´t have unlimited memory,at least in the browser you get a smaller amount allocated of what the user has, besides that newer browser versions split the allocated ressources for content of all plugins so if a site features more than one then your game won´t run nice anymore, all besides the point that the ram/cpu force of the user´s machine is of course also used up by many other apps running.
So yes, in theory you´d have way more ram/cpu force at hand, in reality you´d do better in using as few of it as possible.
Its not my intention to downplay flash and make it seem as if its capable of nothing, in case you haven´t noticed i actually work on stuff that´s not all bad for flash constraints either.
I´m just against hyping flash,especially on the 3D front as if its the most awesome thing because yes,i´d rather like Adobe to propperly evolve things further than sit there relaxed thinking the hype machine rolls forever even if there´s few reason to with an update.
If flash 10 comes out and is awesome i´d be just as happy as the next flash user, if not more :)
tom, I went and checked and it seems that Doom on SNES with the Super FX2 had texturing, but only on walls and not on floors and ceilings. Maybe one or 2 others games was capable. Even still, these Flash demos look PS1 quality, not SNES quality.
By Flash's "unlimited memory", I mean unlimited memory in comparison to PlayStation. The PlayStation's combined RAM is less than 4MB. It's really amazing what they did with such limitations. In comparison the bunker demo uses more than 10x as much memory at about 40MB.
I don't mean to doubt you tom, I know that you know what Flash is all about. I'm just very anxious to see what IS capable before writing anything off. I'd rather keep my mind open as possible because dreams are where the new exciting ideas come from.
3d in demos can be nice,- but imo. what would be more awesome in flash are tiny demos that are only a few KB large in size. Using 40MB in memory is quite big. If I´d release something like that I´d rather push everything into fast download expierences rather than hi resolution textures.
I posted this link once before somewhere here at FK:
http://www.kennethfejer.com/lowpoly.html
but low poly and low resultion stuff like that are defenitly promesing for flash and from different perspective impressive.
That's a good point Render, and Brycey babe, I'm with you :)
Stylised 3D is a direction that hardly ever comes up. A lot of indy games go that direction, plus you have mainstream examples like Rez.
3D doesn't have to be Gears of War, or PGR4, using highly stylised and quirky models would suit Flash a treat.
Vector Flash games have their own distinct look and feel, they have done forever, I can't see why the same can't be applied to 3D Flash games with some thought.
So instead of thinking in terms of high res textures that lead to a 40meg footprint, even if it is streamed, flat simple shaded 3D could look really cool too.
Squize.
render, it's great that you mention that link to Kenneth Fejer's art because that's exactly what I've been using as a reference point.
A good example of a fresh gameplay idea that doesn't push any 3D limits is Fez, which got a lot of attention at this past GDC.
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs26/f/20..._by_phishy.jpg
The gameplay is 2D but you manipulate the world by changing your perspective in 3D. As you can see it's pretty simple and low-poly, something that could be achieved in Flash. Here is a YouTube video of Fez gameplay.
There's also a game for PSP that uses the same concept, Crush. It was released last year by Sega. Here's a video of Crush.
These ideas could have been executed 10 years ago on PlayStation but they weren't. People hadn't thought of them yet! There's still a ton of cool ideas that could be made. And that's what interests me.
They weren't executed because there was no need to do so. Playstation had full 3D platformers. I had the japanese version and had some japanese games which never made it over to Europe or USA. And that's stuff Flash currently cannot do ( not at the required speed anyway ) .Quote:
These ideas could have been executed 10 years ago on PlayStation but they weren't.
Big difference between look and play. My basketball game looks better than PS3 games , doesn't mean it's better than NBA2008.Quote:
these Flash demos look PS1 quality
First game on Playstation was Ridge racer. These demos we see in flash have no characters, opponents, no AI, there is nothing there, just a room coded in 3D. What would be the point of Ridge racer with massive slowdown all over the place? And that is exactly what you'd get as soon as you added a couple of cars.
That reminds...Quote:
Originally Posted by renderhjs
Flash runs great 2d games, make 2d games in flash, people will be like wow thats cool, and fun.
Make 3D games with C, or maybie even java or director, both of which will look great, run great and get the ooh's and aah's.
But it seems to me that what most of these Flash 3D enthusiats think is that Flash devs are gonna be like "damn thats nice", and thats all that matters, but the mass majority of people who play games like BF2, ($10 at gamestop) are gonna look at this and say "Flash does crap graphics", while they may play a director gme and say "wow flash has good graphics".
I've always felt like the end result is what matters regardless of your medium, but don't go out and make crap, even if it was written with a commodor, so what, it's still crap, no one cares about the time it took or how inavative it is, or how hard t was, 90% of your clients have no clue, and besides that, your making flash look crappy by putting crappy 3D engines in a medium it doesnt belong and getting exposure in a medium where flash shouldnt be and making it look like crap in comparison.
they look like early windows 95 games- with pre rendered linear animations or video footage taken from clipart libraries to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMD
I dont understand how you can even compare yours with with the current level of game development like the one of the PS3.
The obvious adventage you have with real interactive 3d content is that you can see it from any angle with any framerate (not fixed pre-rendered)- and hell lot smaler filesize compared to rendered sprites with alpha channel.
Also you can easier swap texture elements, make animations interactive with motion mixing, physics or some other scripted events.
But this advantage doesn´t come from the word "3d" but rather the technique using triangles to devide the shape. It could be even 2d like the succesfull soldat game wich uses triangle rendering with a 2d perspective. In fact even newer 2d games like SimCity 3000 used 2d triangle rendering to display the buildings and use some lighting techniques and other stuff to create something that wouldn´t be possible with just a simple sprite engine.
I'm aware of the advantages, but those do not exist in Flash if you want to have good looking graphics. Flash is not PS3Quote:
The obvious adventage you have with real interactive 3d content is that you can see it from any angle with any framerate (not fixed pre-rendered)- and hell lot smaler filesize compared to rendered sprites with alpha channel.
It's a matter of what's more important. I'd rather have a good looking game that does well what it's supposed to do, than a 3D game that looks like crap , and plays like crap, with the only advantage being so I can say: "look I made a 3D game in flash"
Who's comparing. I actually imply there is no comparison even if you can make a flash game look better ( re-read both posts ) . And, no this: http://www.deusx.com/basketball/3pt.html looks nothing like that golf game you linked to ( that's blurry pixely crap ).Quote:
I dont understand how you can even compare yours with with the current level of game development like the one of the PS3.
"your making flash look crappy by putting crappy 3D engines in a medium it doesnt belong and getting exposure in a medium where flash shouldnt be and making it look like crap in comparison."
A lot of crap in there ;)
I think the point those of us who are thinking 3D has potential in Flash now are making is that a Flash game in 3D shouldn't set out to compete with BF2, because we all know it will come short.
We're not all stupidly thinking "wow... 3D at last, I'm going to make me a Halo", it's more like "Cool, another potential avenue of game design" or at the very least it's a way to add some nice eye-candy ( ie in a 2.5D game ).
"I'd rather have a good looking game that does well what it's supposed to do, than a 3D game that looks like crap , and plays like crap, with the only advantage being so I can say: "look I made a 3D game in flash"
Erm, wouldn't we all ?
Again, a poor game is a poor game, no matter how many dimensions it's in. I love the assumption that because a hypothetical game coded in Flash ( In 3D, or F3D 'cause I'm sick of writing it ) won't look as good as even a PSX game, by default it's going to play badly.
Squize.
I was talking about Ridge racer. It will not only play badly, but will be unplayable even if somebody managed to complete something like that.Quote:
I love the assumption that because a hypothetical game coded in Flash ( In 3D, or F3D 'cause I'm sick of writing it ) won't look as good as even a PSX game, by default it's going to play badly.
You need a certain number of cars, scenery, track, too many polygons required for flash to be able to move it at required speed. If it were possible, somebody would have done it already, we wouldn't be at demo number 1734245 right now. One day it may be possible, not today.
You could have some other type of 3d game done in flash, something that does not require a lot of action, but then again, there are more ways than one of achieving something.
Why is it OK to sacrifice graphics for sake of 3D, but not OK to scrifice 3D for the sake of graphics? Either way you are making a compromise. So gameplay being more or less equal, I'd go with good graphics over bad looking 3D.
Now of course somebody will come up and say: "we can have 3d and great graphics"
well then, If somebody wants to prove it, quit %*&#$ with demos and let me see the game.
obviously someone here doesn´t like demos- I sense also some frustration,- I do like demos alot- more than complete average games- but maybe that´s just me.
Proof for good 3d in flash are many projects involved with papervision - they do look good (from their aesthetics and graphicly wise),- they can lood quite quick and still have the wow effect of not having seen it before. Because a team of several people worked on it- not a one man show like its common on most flash games productions.
http://www.redbull.com/flightlab/
lots of commercial examples on:
http://blog.papervision3d.org/
Neue Digitale (Big german agency) for example has worked alot with papervision and made some impressive stuff booth on the technical and artistic way:
http://www.neue-digitale.de/projects.../container.htm
http://www.neue-digitale.de/projects...s_fw2006/2007/
(from those 2 I know at least that they used papervision for it)
Papervision is just one popular example because a few famous agencies gave it a focus- but the big ones defenitly will go into more tricky 3d stuff to survive on the market,- and to bring something others haven´t done so far.
Mike, I didn't realise you were talking about Ridge Racer specifically, and I agree with you about it ( In regards a Flash version ).
I'm boring myself writing the same thing, so I don't think I'll bother. I've got quite a few ideas where 3D could be used, and look good and add to the gameplay so I'll hold on to those and hopefully get to do them one day.
Squize.
Something which is often not noted on here is that 'Flash' (as in the industry) probably has some of the most talented designers on the planet amongst it's ranks. I'm not talking about game artists or 3D modellers, but proper 'Profile in Creative Review and three Pencils on the mantelpiece' sort of designers. I believe these lot will create work using flash's new power that will drop jaws all across the board.
A friend of mine from an agency in London(had only ever desinged in Flash) was in charge of the art direction of the xbox360's menus and UI, even though he had never worked on a console project in his life, but his design skills put him head and shoulders above most people in the 'games' industry.
hmmm hope my point makes sense,
Chris x
Chris, the interface of which you speak is just that, an interface. Brilliant design, yes, but you know what happens when 'talented creatives' are let loose on game specs....
I still think it's cool that a digital ad agency got to do a console interface, but that was due to a mixture of persuasion, good client relationship (already existed with microsoft/xbox) and a brilliant proposal on behalf of the agency.
Mike, Squize, RenderI think it's just a matter of seeing 3d working in a useful context. Elite came out in 1982 on the bbc micro, it got some great hype for being 3d, but the game itself was inherently better for being 3d, you really felt like you were travelling through space, the aesthetics only kicked in when you got real close to tailing a ship or reached a docking station.
I'm really not much of a fan of 3d - and I actually think that the gaming possibilities of flash 3d (and 3d in general) are overhyped, the real useful applications will come in the form of product guides, building walkthroughs, molecular modelling, teaching aids etc etc. stuff where 3d projection is a visual necessity.
I saw those papervision samples, and they so far confirm what I said.
RedBull game is very nice presentation wise, but gameplay was dull to me, look is so so.
Neue digitale examples you posted are not games, so I shouldn't even bother commenting, but anyway, could all be done with video ( if you say it couldn't that only means you don't know how ). It's kind of embarassing you even need a big agency for that. I'm not saying it's bad design or anything like that, but it's simple stuff to do for somebody with experience and with the right equipment/software.
If you sense frustration, it's not coming from me. I don't have anything against playable game demos ( one level samples or similar ), but I don't see much point of 1995 level tech demos in 2008.Quote:
obviously someone here doesn´t like demos- I sense also some frustration
I kind of agree with you lesli, but I think maybe I limited the pool of people who i think will make a difference a bit much. It's not just the leading designers, but generally Flash's talent base in my opinion is pretty amazing right now. From top design gurus, to bedroom coders to indie game studios, surely if you mix all that lot up it has to lead to some pretty things to look at and play with? A platform has probably never had such a cross section of talented people all working on it.
I for one welcome our new 3D overlords.
Chris x