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:) Actually, it would be good to be part of that book, article what ever, and this thread is certainly educating me.Quote:
Aversion speaks wise words, its obvious to me he is a professional from his conduct, manner and broader view on the topic. I have never seen his work, it might be aweful looking in my opinion, however he has what is the heart of a professional and understanding of his craft. I think he leads a great example to everyone here at FK, an example of a professional at work.
Agreed. Aversion knows the field of design, but it just doesn't end there. He seems to be quiet adept in other issues as well. Keep complimeting the, guy. He works hard for Flashkit. :)Quote:
Originally posted by FI
:) Actually, it would be good to be part of that book, article what ever, and this thread is certainly educating me.
Aversion speaks wise words, its obvious to me he is a professional from his conduct, manner and broader view on the topic. I have never seen his work, it might be aweful looking in my opinion, however he has what is the heart of a professional and understanding of his craft. I think he leads a great example to everyone here at FK, an example of a professional at work.
my man strong bad sums-up the "style" issue pretty well with:
http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail57.html
In the end the plagerised "style" will fade for the next best thing. I'm not sure why web designers have the exclusive on "original ideas". Print's been ripping from each other for years and doing just fine.
shame about all the anger and rhetoric. The goo and the fish things at the start still look pretty good though.
shucks, thanks :)
someone asked for articles, well here are some sources I look to, not necessarily for inspiration but for education.
http://world.std.com/~uieweb/ (list of articles)
http://www.paulhibbitts.com/links.html
http://www.welie.com/patterns/index.html (v. useful for beginners)
http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usability_news.html (this is a great place to start)
http://www.digital-web.com/tutorials/
http://valcasey.com/webdesign/
http://www.alistapart.com/index.html (awesome resource)
http://www.infourm.com/cycle/feature...oser/index.htm (hehe :))
there are many more.
please note that most of these are web related because I grabbed them from my favourites, but you should look beyond the web and examine other media that you find inspiring, be it print (david carson), decoration, fine art (mondrian! king of layout design ;)), information design (edward tufte), urban planning (jane jacobs), and many more.
an excellent source of pure design inspiration articles is 'design is...' book from metropolis magazine's archives. I could read almost every article in that book a hundred times and learn something new about being a designer each time.
a lot of the articles I've linked to above might seem simplistic and obvious to some people but I feel that sometimes the obvious is the easiest thing to overlook. Read these articles and realise that you don't have to follow them word for word, sometimes reading about what is done, what is the pattern, allows you to create soemthing new simply because you realise what is 'done'. If that makes any sense!
Don't forget one of the finest digital magazines:
http://www.macartdesign.matchbox.se published in Sweden.
Hard to find and only published quarterly but an excellent look at the state of digital art around the world . A digital artist's bible. Sort of like the newer and newer testament each quarter.
coffee anyone?
Intresting how a innocent "from site check" coolsites thread can evolve into a full scale debate about web etics and moral.
It feels good that some of the top web agencys are taking part of this debate and that they point out that ripping should not be excused as "it happens, so what? its just a sign that you are good".
Ripping is a serious issue and the sad part is that there are even some individuals that gain money on ripping.
I want to see more debates in this style in the future.
:)
masa.
What seems to be so funny? Have you ever stoped to look at your own site for a few minutes. I looked at it for a few "seconds", you are one of those that need to start working a little harder.Quote:
Originally posted by kony2003
lol :eek:
laugh now.
The design field is one that I am weary of persuing. There is a lot of money to be made, yes, but to get that big break is just a great of a shot in the dark as any. I am not the best out there, but hey, I got a client. I got a client because my dad works for them, and told them that I can create web sites. When I showed them my portfolio, all they noticed was that I "could" create a web site. They not once noticed any artistic ability, the fact that I don't know PHP, nor that I was a high school student. Which is what makes me shudder at the direction this industry has taken.
I had another experience just recently where I was referred to another client. The person that referred me said "He is really good at web design." Because she had seen some of my work. This client then didn't even want to see my portfolio, wanted me to make a web site for them, and then when I told them how much it would cost, they merely shut me out. It is such a hard field as to get a knowledge of what the client wants and needs, of how they want it to feel. They just want a web site, and they don't care who does it, as long as it doesn't cost them very much. There can't be a regulation, nor a license to say that you are a web developer, but how can one regulate the industry as someone mentioned before, book art/game creation etc.
Why can't clients be more informed, have a directory of some sort, and then come out and shop for you, rather than pick you. It becomes a game of who you know and your location rather than you r ability (as much of life is.)
I'm sick of it, although I want to make money to get me thru college and an LDS mission, so I might as well screw some people while I'm on the ride and get what I can out of it.
Sorry for a novel, just my thoughts on the industry that I'm just starting to scratch.
-Kac
Love this thread... anyone wanna fight...?
http://board.flashkit.com/board/imag.../2003/02/1.jpg
kazooma.com
What do you mean?Quote:
Originally posted by kazooma
Love this thread... anyone wanna fight...?
http://board.flashkit.com/board/imag.../2003/02/1.jpg
kazooma.com
Yes! Yes! The copying must stop! Stop!!Quote:
Originally posted by pixelranger
Let me say this..my comments ..i tried to make General comments...not specifically about THIS one site except where I needed to. This is mainly about all the sites like it that creep up in our/my e-mail box every day... I get pixelranger rips every week...there are 10x as many 2A rips that flood thru every day. People say we should be flattered..but I disagree.
This phenomenon of quickly copying things should not be tolerated. The more it is..the more it will happen. This is MORE than about 2A..its more than about me.
Nionicle.... The same people who are quick to jump to conclusions about using the color blue and 2a..that seem to bug you....are the SAME junior members who are rampantly running around being Inspired. If you are tired of those comparisons..then you should speak to that crowd.
I'm sorry ..but in my opinion..i would rather be like Simon on "Americon Idol" I'm gonna call it like I see it and be bluntly honest...
This stuff happens in ALL mediums.. Print.. Paintings...3d... Sculpture...Television, Video it happens.... but it is soo much easier on the web to copy ..its SOO MUCH easier to hide it..because people probably wont see your site amongst the millions out there...and there are soo many young enthusiasts out there..who want a pat on the back..i just dont people should pat them on the back for some things... plain and simple..
http://www.theforce.net/books/images/boba-fett-2_sm.jpg
http://www.sculpturegallery.com/two/grecian_helmet.jpg
Did I mention the copying must stop?
Quote:
Originally posted by Kac
The design field is one that I am weary of persuing. There is a lot of money to be made, yes, but to get that big break is just a great of a shot in the dark as any. I am not the best out there, but hey, I got a client. I got a client because my dad works for them, and told them that I can create web sites. When I showed them my portfolio, all they noticed was that I "could" create a web site. They not once noticed any artistic ability, the fact that I don't know PHP, nor that I was a high school student. Which is what makes me shudder at the direction this industry has taken.
I had another experience just recently where I was referred to another client. The person that referred me said "He is really good at web design." Because she had seen some of my work. This client then didn't even want to see my portfolio, wanted me to make a web site for them, and then when I told them how much it would cost, they merely shut me out. It is such a hard field as to get a knowledge of what the client wants and needs, of how they want it to feel. They just want a web site, and they don't care who does it, as long as it doesn't cost them very much. There can't be a regulation, nor a license to say that you are a web developer, but how can one regulate the industry as someone mentioned before, book art/game creation etc.
Why can't clients be more informed, have a directory of some sort, and then come out and shop for you, rather than pick you. It becomes a game of who you know and your location rather than you r ability (as much of life is.)
I'm sick of it, although I want to make money to get me thru college and an LDS mission, so I might as well screw some people while I'm on the ride and get what I can out of it.
Sorry for a novel, just my thoughts on the industry that I'm just starting to scratch.
-Kac
www.elance.com
not too shabby... but how would an everyday small business owner know how to go there to get services... thats what I'm saying. Nice link though. I'm just talking in theory, i mean it is virtually impossible.Quote:
on another note, my high school web site is hosting a student video for michael jackson's man in the mirror. It is a student made film, they wrote/planned/edited/produced the whole thing, I think it is worthy of a post... check it out:
http://www.chasebrammer.com/ohs/students/videos.htm
-Kac
Quote:
Originally posted by FI
I dont intend to be insulting
David Martin
FI
Quote:
Originally posted by FI
your spamming our industry with crap!
David Martin
FI
Quote:
Originally posted by FI
I feel strongly about this discussion, but try to remain dignified in my words. Its called being professional. Your feedback on this topic is more than welcome from a constructive and
mature point of view.
Quote:
Originally posted by FI
your spamming our industry with crap!
David Martin
FI
Quote:
Originally posted by FI
with crap!
David Martin
FI
Quote:
Originally posted by FI
dignified in my words constructive mature point of view.
David Martin
FI
Really? That's what mature is eh? I'll remember that, wise words from someone who proclaims to be an industry leader.Quote:
Originally posted by FI
your spamming our industry with crap!
David Martin
FI
Troll....Quote:
Originally posted by Olli_Budworth
Really? That's what mature is eh? I'll remember that, wise words from someone who proclaims to be an industry leader.
yes whatever :) a like the word crap! right now, lights my fire, turns me on, if im not careful you will make me climax, JESUS!!.Quote:
Originally posted by Olli_Budworth
Really? That's what mature is eh? I'll remember that, wise words from someone who proclaims to be an industry leader.
>>
Well the best part about this thread is the learning it provides. Aversions articles, rock stars comments and then there are the rest of us either playing with words or just getting involved :)
What I have found to be the major fault of people that "use" existing design elements and ideas is that their CONTENT is usually not up to scratch. Their passion does not ring through like a bell.
Everyone wants to be a rock star web designer. The pipes are full of us...
Its the coming together of PASSION/COMMITMENT/KNOWLEDGE ( Douglas Arthur, Nevil's Theory 7, TD Collins etc etc ), that seperates sites like this threads subject, from the realy good ones.
When great content meets good usability , colour, navigation etc etc and also god forbid, a good design then sometimes you get original gems.
How the commercial rock stars churn it out for "consumer products" seems to come down to skill, team work and a professional approach
More praise to amatuers that go out on a limb and generate originality.
The future designers will come from that pool.
In my humble opinion ...
Great thread BTW :)
Quote:
Originally posted by FI
>>
You chose some good inspirational material. Apple has the coolest designs ever.Quote:
Originally posted by FI
>>
Relax man. It's only a message board.Quote:
Originally posted by Olli_Budworth
pretty amateur design, but funny :)Quote:
Originally posted by Olli_Budworth
Took all of about a minute to do, i'm hardly gonna put effort into something like that now am I?Quote:
Originally posted by FI
pretty amateur design, but funny :)
Quote:
Originally posted by FI
Good feedback from everyone here, took a while to read.
Overall:
The online Interactive media industry (flash etc..), is suffering from several perspectives, mainly standards.
Flash Kit, others, are 99% amateurs, hobbiests, and 1% professionals.
Maybe because our industry is so fresh and new maybe otherwise, but the OVERALL problem is the attitude, work ethics and standard HERE have become mainstream.
Professionals?:
Unfortunate for Interactive Media, it is extremely easy for anyone to be part of, a lot easier than TV, Game Design, Print, Animation and FX design of which all have governing boards for standards, morals and rules. Professional people dominate all these other medias. Interactive Media does not have any of the professional control, quality, input, support which makes an attitude.
Flashkit is seen as the mainstream governing body if we like it or not, but with professionals consisting of about 0.1-1%, its a receipe to consume and spam our industry.
Solution:
Education, a governing body, a community that is similar to flashkit in awareness but with 99% professionals and 1% amateurs.
I cant change flashkit's members attitudes, but I am determined to be part of the organisation that can be seen as the governing board for standards in Interactive Media with an aim to influence and promote all forms of design and programming, educating and providing a haven for everyone here that will hopefully be considered a professional in our industry.
www.propod.com
David and everyone at FI, 2A and anyone else that is behind this.
was it just me or did you just make it obvious what www.propod.com was gonna be for? although I love the work you do david I get the impression that you have only come to the boards to make it clear that if you want proffesional feedback/discussion/etc then flashkit is not the place as it's only got 1% proffesionals, you then cleverly dropped in the www.propod.com link? am I the only one that reads it this way?
if this is the case then I look forward to propod, would be nice to have a filtered discussion, only "proffesional" responses :)
as far as this thread goes, I feel like I have seen this a hundred times before, a site is posted that copies someone else, then a huge discussion about it starts up.
As far as young designers being accused of copying sites and stuff, although I don't agree with it or condone it I have to admit that 10 years ago when I was 15 if I had the opportunity to create flash sites I don't think I would have cared about what people thought if I copied, be honest would you at that age? maybe flashkit should have an age rating, 18 or over, that would stop the copcats, no?
please don't look to much into this comment, it's just a light hearted view :)
why don't you contribute something to this discussion rather than just trying to troll through it? I'm sure you have something to contribute or is your only point that david has a bit of a potty mouth and so can't be a professional designer?Quote:
Originally posted by Olli_Budworth
Took all of about a minute to do, i'm hardly gonna put effort into something like that now am I?
this was a good discussion, maybe it's time to close it before it's completely crap.
oh i said crap, I should resign my modship...
lol Nevil,
I got that impression when I first read the comment, but I just thought nothing of it, carried on reading and forgot about it :)
I do, but when someone like him comes on here making wild accusations, there's really little point in saying anything is there? He's come on firing out all these facts and figures, yet has no evidence to substantiate what he's been saying - how can he prove that only 1% of the people on here are pro?Quote:
Originally posted by aversion
I'm sure you have something to contribute or is your only point that david has a bit of a potty mouth and so can't be a professional designer?
I'm educated to degree level and work in the industry, am I an amateur?
The reason I brought up the whole 'crap' thing was to enforce the point that he is being hypocritical. He says that he has remained professional and to quote 'dignified' in his words, then comes out with "stop spamming our industry with crap"!
And who the hell is he to say something like that? Loads of people aspire to his work, then to see him calling 99% of the poeple on here amateur and their work crap............. :rolleyes:
thanks man, please if you disagree with him, or anyone, enter the discussion, make a point like this not byt trolling the discussion.Quote:
Originally posted by Olli_Budworth
I do, but when someone like him comes on here making wild accusations, there's really little point in saying anything is there? He's come on firing out all these facts and figures, yet has no evidence to substantiate what he's been saying - how can he prove that only 1% of the people on here are pro?
I'm educated to degree level and work in the industry, am I an amateur?
The reason I brought up the whole 'crap' thing was to enforce the point that he is being hypocritical. He says that he has remained professional and to quote 'dignified' in his words, then comes out with "stop spamming our industry with crap"!
And who the hell is he to say something like that? Loads of people aspire to his work, then to see him calling 99% of the poeple on here amateur and their work crap............. :rolleyes:
I think there's plenty of room here to debate his facts and figures, I didn't take them at face value, I assumed they were merely illustrative to claim they're accurate is only speculation. If I had to put a figure on the percentage of 'professionals' I saw on this board, so that's probably out of a couple of thousand regularly active memebers, I'd say maybe 15% were professionals. They may or may not be the best designers in the world but they do good work and have a laugh.
I can see the point that david is trying to make however, there is certainly a majority of people on the boards that do not, imho, take advantage of the possibilities on this board to learn from experience and insight, people that seem to think they have the only opinion that matters on aesthetics, people with warped ideas of what a good designer is...
nothing here is a big deal and I think a good discussion can benefit everyone.
:|
And I agree with Olli's point here. I get what David and Shane were saying, but I think the way they said may have offended many people here. Olli, don't take it personally, but if you were receiving 10+ emails per day containing links to websites that were rips of your company's website, I think you'd be a bit ticked too.Quote:
Originally posted by Olli_Budworth
And who the hell is he to say something like that? Loads of people aspire to his work, then to see him calling 99% of the poeple on here amateur and their work crap............. :rolleyes:
Wise words, and I agree. I can see what he is saying and I understand that anyone should get angry if their work is plagarised, but at the end of the day, people aspire to FI and 2A - imitation is the highest form of flattery!Quote:
Originally posted by aversion
thanks man, please if you disagree with him, or anyone, enter the discussion, make a point like this not byt trolling the discussion.
I think there's plenty of room here to debate his facts and figures, I didn't take them at face value, I assumed they were merely illustrative to claim they're accurate is only speculation. If I had to put a figure on the percentage of 'professionals' I saw on this board, so that's probably out of a couple of thousand regularly active memebers, I'd say maybe 15% were professionals. They may or may not be the best designers in the world but they do good work and have a laugh.
I can see the point that david is trying to make however, there is certainly a majority of people on the boards that do not, imho, take advantage of the possibilities on this board to learn from experience and insight, people that seem to think they have the only opinion that matters on aesthetics, people with warped ideas of what a good designer is...
nothing here is a big deal and I think a good discussion can benefit everyone.
:|
Thing he (dm) /they (fi) have to realise, is that in their position - as one of the top design companies, they have to be a bit more thoughtful with their words - it's difficult to take some of the comments that have been made as anything but insulting to be frank. Maybe if the same was said by any old person than fair enough, but coming from the mouth of the creative director of FI........
Our master plan worked!! We got FI to tell us what Propod was. Good job guys -- and after months and months of planning. Success! Back to the drawing board. Now, we have to trick Shane into telling us when the next version of 2A comes out. :pQuote:
Originally posted by Ritchie-T
lol Nevil,
I got that impression when I first read the comment, but I just thought nothing of it, carried on reading and forgot about it :)
I agree with everything you said in this post. I would have expected them to express their disdain for ripping with a better choice of words. But, to each his/her own. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Olli_Budworth
Wise words, and I agree. I can see what he is saying and I understand that anyone should get angry if their work is plagarised, but at the end of the day, people aspire to FI and 2A - imitation is the highest form of flattery!
Thing he (dm) /they (fi) have to realise, is that in their position - as one of the top design companies, they have to be a bit more thoughtful with their words - it's difficult to take some of the comments that have been made as anything but insulting to be frank. Maybe if the same was said by any old person than fair enough, but coming from the mouth of the creative director of FI........
Cheers, i'm glad someone sees my point!Quote:
Originally posted by gdstudios
And I agree with Olli's point here. I get what David and Shane were saying, but I think the way they said may have offended many people here. Olli, don't take it personally, but if you were receiving 10+ emails per day containing links to websites that were rips of your company's website, I think you'd be a bit ticked too.
I re-iterate my quote:
With clients such as Microsoft, Nintendo and so on, it's hardly like they (FI) have got anything to be worried about now is it? Be honest......Quote:
Originally posted by Olli_Budworth
people aspire to FI and 2A - imitation is the highest form of flattery!
Very true Olli, but it is equally as important to realize that the website copies are a problem. You agree with that right?
I do agree with that, totally, but with regard to the site in question at the start of this thread...... I wouldn't call it a rip, if it was petrol blue, was layed out the same and so on, maybe I would call it a 2A rip, it has taken and slightly adapted a lot of 2A elements btu it's not a rip.Quote:
Originally posted by gdstudios
Very true Olli, but it is equally as important to realize that the website copies are a problem. You agree with that right?
People try and imitate / copy 2A all the time, found this on my travels the other day.......: http://www.zerofusion.net
Hmmm, 2A inspired splash page? Me thinks so.
At the end of the day, generally speaking, the original is always number one and best.
You can look at anything in life, look at things like supermarket own brand foods - they all copy the big names in their packaging design and so on....... clothes, cars, people will always copy the best.
To FI: Take it as a complement and aspire to remain tha market leaders - doing best at what you do, rather than whinging about some random guy copying your buttons.
(edited due to typo's)
I think the point of this thread isn't rips or copies, it's that so many web designers think that creating something like the site that opened this thread is the work of a good designer.
I think that's more the point than guys like david being pissed off at rippers, they're lamenting the fact that so many people do it and present it as good design. It's a great learning tool that's for sure, but I think it's arguable that a good designer would create a site for public consumption such as the one that started this thread.
I totally agree with you. I just think the way in which David Martin presented himself and has handled this thread is pretty poor to be perfectly honest. I just expected a much more 'professional, constructive and friendly' approach from someone who in the realms of web design, I still merit as an inspirational genius!Quote:
Originally posted by aversion
I think the point of this thread isn't rips or copies, it's that so many web designers think that creating something like the site that opened this thread is the work of a good designer.
I think that's more the point than guys like david being pissed off at rippers, they're lamenting the fact that so many people do it and present it as good design. It's a great learning tool that's for sure, but I think it's arguable that a good designer would create a site for public consumption such as the one that started this thread.
It's tough to argue with you on this...I think it is one thing to believe that 99% of Flashkit users are amateurs, but it's another to blatantly talk to them like they are amateurs. I'm just being honest.Quote:
Originally posted by Olli_Budworth
I totally agree with you. I just think the way in which David Martin presented himself and has handled this thread is pretty poor to be perfectly honest. I just expected a much more 'professional, constructive and friendly' approach from someone who in the realms of web design, I still merit as an inspirational genius!
But I still see his point and understand his frustration.