I just thought it was an interesting read, is all. I didn't really think Einstein said this, for one because I know Einstein never went to college, and it just seemed so far fetched.
I did find it thought-provoking, at least.
I just thought it was an interesting read, is all. I didn't really think Einstein said this, for one because I know Einstein never went to college, and it just seemed so far fetched.
I did find it thought-provoking, at least.
When I said people will be looking back and laughing at religion is because I think in 500 years (read: not 200, or 100 etc, although I think we will have advanced hugely in that time anyway, however) 500 years we will know alot more about god and other events that are unexplained now (ghosts, telepathy, aliens, etc etc). I think that will be the real shock, sure many of our theories will have changed, maybe not hugely, I will give you that, but I think it's the supernatural and the unexplained that will catch up with us :)Quote:
Originally posted by japangreg
Ah, Fredi, that's alovely way to phrase quantum mechanics - down right doaist. :)
If we continue to advance at the pace we have been (look at how far we have come in the last 200 years alone), it won't take 500 years before present knowledge is looked upon as a 'quaint' example of human reasoning. But, I doubt it will ever be laughed at, as the modern basis for all of our exploration is the assumption that we don't really know: a much different starting point than that we are the center of all creation and the subject of every force.
Religion, I'm afraid, is here to stay. It will be forced to change as times do, but I doubt it'll ever really fade away. It does have its uses and does provide some good to humanity, when treated respectfully and not abused to justify questionable actions.
I'd bet we'll start to see most religions becoming more moderate and inclusive as time wears on; not to say the transition will be easy, religion will most likely have to be dragged kicking and screaming each step by those who really do feel a need for spirtuality in a time of increasing reason and outdated social and moral codes.
Hopefully, :D
Last night I was pondering this vague thought as I drifted off to sleep;
most athiests believe in evolution. They say that creation is impossible. I tend to agree. However, how does one explain how evolution started? The Universe was created somehow. Evolution did not just begin. On the other end of the spectrum, if God is the creator, how did God come to be? It's like there's flawed logic on both sides, and I don't know who to side with.
To me, I believe in a creator. I don't believe that God created the world in 6 days, as the bible says. On the other hand, I believe he created evolution. I suppose I'm a creationary evolutionist, if that term even exists.
A lot of athiests say that this idea that a God created everything is far fetched. However, is not this idea of the Big Bang Theory also a bit far fetched? The Universe hasn't always been here. If energy created the Universe, what created energy?
I'm so perplexed.
I've always wondered what would it take for proof of god's existence to make even the most hardcore scientific person to start to believe.
I mean, if they found a quaint house in the middle of the universe and it had a mailbox that said "god", would they finally believe he exists? Or would he have to put on a show, answer some questions, and even do some math problems that have remained unanswered, or unexplored, to make people believe.
come to think of it, I don't know what would convince me that the entity found was god....
Quote:
Originally posted by TallGuyLittleCar
no more amazing than the fact that all car manufactures choose to put the wheels on all four corners instead of down the middle like an inline skate. at all four corners is what works the best with cars. The ten commandments, or basic core morality is the same throughout all socieities becuase in general all societies are the same, a large group of people. So the "best practices" are going to be the same.
Not really. I think if religions had identical morals then there would be a lot less religious conflict although there would be still be plenty.
Think about judaism, islam, chrisitianity, buddhism. All have quite a few different moral values.
well if you ever watch science videos on space you would understand how many stars their actually are and how far away the are. They say the closest star is x amount of light years away, meaning when we see a start burn out (or notice it is no longer there) it actually burned out 5 years ago, that's how close the closest star is....now when I was watching the video they were talking about how many univers' were inside of eachother our galazy is built within another galazy so in our "universe" there's about 200,000,000 billion stars and on the outside of that is more "clusters" of stars which are about 400,000,000,000 univers' and all those clusters of stars are within even more univers' thats why they said if we could see all and I mean "ALL" the stars that there possibly is the entire night sky would be white you wouldn't see any other color cept white...now when we die you just can't possibly go to nothing or hell or heaven...its what your religion beleives in and what other people psoted some religions say if you don't join their religion then you will go to hell and there's more than just one of those so in terms "EVERYONE" is going to hell so why would people go to heaven if other religions say their going to hell..... some theory's say that for how many stars are you are bound to end up somewhere else and no remember your last life.... you coul of lived 5 billion times and not of known it...that's just my theory but what you believe is heaven or hell might actually not be.
take a breather!
I think you got galaxies and universes mixed up, as far as we know, there is only one universe, it is what contains our galaxy, and many many others, which contain solar systems, which contain planets etc etc.
Give him a week and he'll create another universe for you.Quote:
Originally posted by gerbick
I've always wondered what would it take for proof of god's existence to make even the most hardcore scientific person to start to believe.
I mean, if they found a quaint house in the middle of the universe and it had a mailbox that said "god", would they finally believe he exists? Or would he have to put on a show, answer some questions, and even do some math problems that have remained unanswered, or unexplored, to make people believe.
come to think of it, I don't know what would convince me that the entity found was god....
It would be interesting to ask an omniscient being questions, but from what I've heard, God's got a bit of a temper, so I would be careful about asking the questions. (of course, he knows that you're skeptical and could show you the one thing that would make you believe. So, no need to wonder what it could be) :)
Both sides have their own answers that they are comfortable with. Science says that we still don't know for sure how the universe was created. Religion says that God has always been.Quote:
Originally posted by DigitalOne
most athiests believe in evolution. They say that creation is impossible. I tend to agree. However, how does one explain how evolution started? The Universe was created somehow. Evolution did not just begin. On the other end of the spectrum, if God is the creator, how did God come to be? It's like there's flawed logic on both sides, and I don't know who to side with.
I wouldn't call the logic flawed, it just has a little too much hand-waving for some people
Every religions claims there is a god, and they all insinuate that this god want's humans to know about it. It's not a question of what it would take to make me a believer, cause I know, if there were this mythical being, everyone, including me, would know it for sure. There would be no question or arguement about it. Not in anyones mind.Quote:
Originally posted by gerbick
I've always wondered what would it take for proof of god's existence to make even the most hardcore scientific person to start to believe.
I do believe that there are superior beings, but they are not gods, just superior. I don't think there is a supreme being that made all this. The idea is absurd for me. While there is no proof that a believer will accept, there's plenty for the rest of us.
It just seems kind of odd that so many people will sign up for something that they have to die to get the answer to. :D
I'm feelin ya there.Quote:
Originally posted by iaskwhy
It just seems kind of odd that so many people will sign up for something that they have to die to get the answer to. :D
Quote:
Originally posted by iaskwhy
I do believe that there are superior beings, but they are not gods, just superior. I don't think there is a supreme being that made all this. The idea is absurd for me. While there is no proof that a believer will accept, there's plenty for the rest of us.
oo that sounds interesting, what kind of superior beings? :)
iaskwhy's a fan of greek mythologyQuote:
Originally posted by bvgroote
oo that sounds interesting, what kind of superior beings? :)
ahhh I see.Quote:
Originally posted by yasunobu13
iaskwhy's a fan of greek mythology
Well, there's not much doubt that there are billions of suns in our galaxy and it's looking like there are billions of galaxies beyond our own. Somewhere, the odds are, there is a civilization with more advanced beings than ourselves. Probably millions of them. If you include time in the equation, then it's almost a certainty that at some time in the past billions of years, another civilization just had to evolve somewhere, rose up and died out. To me, this makes so much more sense than believing in some being that created it all.
I've been an archaeology hobbiest all my life. As I said earlier, if you pick up a rock anywhere around where I live, chances are that it will be a petrified sea shell that you can recognize. All the bedrock here is nothing but petrified sea bed life. It's awful hard to even imagine some being inventing all that. More and more is being uncovered about early human life too. So far, there is no indication that earlier forms of humans practiced any religion at all, until they became numerous enough to have the time to lay around the fire and speculate. I don't know, religion has always just seemed to be made up to me.
iaw, I understand your beliefs, and agree with a lot of what you're saying, but here's what I don't get. What/how did this universe, with the billions of suns and galaxies, come to be? Something cannot come from nothing, so therefore "something" had to have created this universe. If it came from the so-called "Big Bang Theory", which says that the universe was created by the explosion of a primeval atom, what created this atom?Quote:
Originally posted by iaskwhy
Well, there's not much doubt that there are billions of suns in our galaxy and it's looking like there are billions of galaxies beyond our own. Somewhere, the odds are, there is a civilization with more advanced beings than ourselves. Probably millions of them. If you include time in the equation, then it's almost a certainty that at some time in the past billions of years, another civilization just had to evolve somewhere, rose up and died out. To me, this makes so much more sense than believing in some being that created it all.
I've been an archaeology hobbiest all my life. As I said earlier, if you pick up a rock anywhere around where I live, chances are that it will be a petrified sea shell that you can recognize. All the bedrock here is nothing but petrified sea bed life. It's awful hard to even imagine some being inventing all that. More and more is being uncovered about early human life too. So far, there is no indication that earlier forms of humans practiced any religion at all, until they became numerous enough to have the time to lay around the fire and speculate. I don't know, religion has always just seemed to be made up to me.
It's things like these that are making me an imsomniac.
Correlation?Quote:
Originally posted by StrapOnFetus
and all those clusters of stars are within even more univers' thats why they said if we could see all and I mean "ALL" the stars that there possibly is the entire night sky would be white you wouldn't see any other color cept white...now when we die you just can't possibly go to nothing or hell or heaven...
You really can't look at things that way. You have to look at each individual belief/religion and look at what it believes. Christians often believe that non-christians go to hell because the only way to reach God is through Christ. Thus without Christ's help, you can't be holy enough to enter God's Kingdom (heaven) come judgement day. Traditional jews on the other hand often believe that the Trinity is a form of idol worship which is against the 10 commandments and so you die with the stain of sin on your hands. It's not just that everyone is hating on everyone.Quote:
Originally posted by StrapOnFetus
its what your religion beleives in and what other people psoted some religions say if you don't join their religion then you will go to hell and there's more than just one of those so in terms "EVERYONE" is going to hell so why would people go to heaven if other religions say their going to hell..... some theory's say that for how many stars are you are bound to end up somewhere else and no remember your last life.... you coul of lived 5 billion times and not of known it...that's just my theory but what you believe is heaven or hell might actually not be.
If you look at the major religions closely, their are many difference. However, their basic moral system (pretty much anything that doesn't have to do with worship or belief) are usual quite similar. Jesus indirectly describes sin in his suggestion for good behaviour, "Do onto others as you would have done unto you". You don't wantto get killed. You dont want people to steal from you. You dont want your wife/husband to have an affair with someone else. These are the most fundamental sins. When it comes to sins against God, we may relate to some level, but not fully, because he is perfect and we're not.
I've read some speculation on this that makes some sense, for me at least. Before the primal atom, there was another universe. It expanded and collapsed, down to that primal atom that exploded and expanded again. The theory went, that it's like a yo-yo, expanding out, then collapsing back in on itself, over and over again.Quote:
Originally posted by DigitalOne
iaw, I understand your beliefs, and agree with a lot of what you're saying, but here's what I don't get. What/how did this universe, with the billions of suns and galaxies, come to be? Something cannot come from nothing, so therefore "something" had to have created this universe. If it came from the so-called "Big Bang Theory", which says that the universe was created by the explosion of a primeval atom, what created this atom?
It's things like these that are making me an imsomniac.
I've also read that many astronomers go crazy thinking about this. :D
But what came before that? I don't think the human mind is capable of understanding the answer, even if someone told us what it was, let alone finding the answer on our own. This is one of the reasons I think led to early philosophers inventing god.
I'm no astronomer, but I fear if I do any more thinking on the subject I may suffer the same fate. :DQuote:
Originally posted by iaskwhy
I've also read that many astronomers go crazy thinking about this. :D
A lot of people get that part confused.. When the bible says 6 days it's actually 6000 years. The bible explains that a day for God is a thousand years for man which actually has more deeper explinations.. It took God 6000 years to create the earth and he didn't create it from nothing he created it from existing elements and then rested for a thousand years. This cycle is repeated in the bible as if you count the number of years since Adam and Eve were placed in the garden to about now there's around 6000 years and the 7th thousand years is referred to as the millenium which if the bible chronology is somewhat accurate isn't too far away from happening. To believers of the bible this would be referred to also as the second coming of Christ.Quote:
To me, I believe in a creator. I don't believe that God created the world in 6 days, as the bible says. On the other hand, I believe he created evolution. I suppose I'm a creationary evolutionist, if that term even exists.
In my opinion the theory of relativity actually upholds some aspects of this religious belief because if Einstein's theory of relativity is indeed correct to a certain extent then it would make sense why one day for God would be felt as a thousand years for man. The faster an object moves the slower time goes; so if God lived at the center of the universe then he would experience time at a much faster rate than earth would because the earth is hurling around the universe at an incredible velocity.
The egyptians also used this method of measurement. In fact their scientists used spacetime measurement in order to build the pyramids. There are 86,400 seconds in a day, the distance of the earth traveled in one second is 1000 jomard cubits and the base of the great pyramid is the distance of the earth traveled in 1/2 a second.
Sorry for the longwindedness, I just think science can prove the existence of a higher order in the universe just as easily as it can disprove..
Sorry flash, don't agree with you there and I also dont think that einsteins theory of relativity proves much about god at all. Either way, many theories can be twisted and bent to help prove the existence of a higher being but well...I wouldn't give our minds that much credit yet. The main thing is, penguin, whether it was 7 days or 7000 years, or 10 weeks or whatever, it really doesnt make much difference because I am pretty sure god didnt make the bible, and if he/she/it does exist, you would think he would have a say in his holy bible no? Oh sure he spoke to prophets, pff, get einsteins theory to prove how that was possible :)
even if I did explain how God can talk to man you still wouldn't believe. Someone that doesn't believe in God can't be shown why to believe in God. No human will EVER prove 100% that God exists with science because God doesn't want us to. Likewise science will never prove God doesn't exist for the same reason. If I'm holding a gold bar in my right hand and a wood block in my left hand both behind my back and I tell you to choose one as a gift but all I do is tell you what I have in which hand without showing you, you probably won't believe me.. or maybe I'm tricking you.. maybe you'll choose left because you think I switched em around. Maybe you'll choose niether because you're wasting your time wondering whats behind my back.. but if I show you my hands and ask you to choose a gift you'll grab the gold bar.. If God lets us understand all his mysteries then there's no test of faith or loyalty.
You can argue scientific discoveries disprove God all you want but there's always a flaw in the findings. The bible even talks about how the earth used to be one continent. There's all kinds of science related subjects in the bible. You should really read the book before you dismiss it as a huge lie.
You could argue God doesn't exist with any science and I could show you huge flaws with it.. The fact is there is more science that proves God exists than there is that he doesn't and I know you'll argue with that but it's true..:)
Here's a question. Why would something as unique as the Universe (in other words, reality itself) be such a chaotic mess? Why would all the stuff that makes it up be in the position they are now? Existence simply doesn't make too much sense without reason.
It is no chaotic mess, it's just very complex. :)Quote:
Originally posted by jide
be such a chaotic mess?
Fredi
you mean apart from ETH teaching college in Zurich, Zurich University and Munich University?Quote:
Originally posted by DigitalOne
I just thought it was an interesting read, is all. I didn't really think Einstein said this, for one because I know Einstein never went to college, and it just seemed so far fetched.
I did find it thought-provoking, at least.
How convenient.Quote:
Originally posted by flashpenguin
No human will EVER prove 100% that God exists with science because God doesn't want us to.
Did he tell you that himself, O conduit to the Heavens, or has that idea simply been drilled into your head so long that you just assume it's fact?
NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONO
Swampy ... you need help? :D
Try to prove that you exist or that I exist or that the screen in front of you exist. Good luck. :pQuote:
Originally posted by hurricaneone
Did he tell you that himself
Fredi
I don't get the trying to prove god thing, or the Intelligent Design thing. It's like trying to squeeze biology out of science and replace it with faith.
If *you* believe in god, then accept that you have faith that god exists and quit trying to reconcile your religious beliefs with scientific knowledge
What? That the screen's not actually 'there' due to the space between particles?Quote:
Originally posted by Subway
Try to prove that you exist or that I exist or that the screen in front of you exist. Good luck. :p
Fredi
I have faith enough to believe that the screen in front of me exists. But that's just about the limit of my piety.
I think swampy's blown a fuse. Or his keyboard jammed. Or he's upset that this is rapidly descending into a mudslinging affair (with no bikinis involved to make it worthwhile)
From the true holy book:=^_^=Quote:
The Ruler of the Universe is a very interesting person indeed. He lives in a small shack on a world that can only be reached with the use of an Infinite Improbability Drive. He does not want to rule the universe and tries not to whenever possible, and therefore is by far the ideal candidate for the job. He has an odd view of reality: he lives alone with his cat, which he has named "The Lord", he has a very dim view of the past, and he only believes in what he sees with his eyes and ears: anything else is hearsay. He has been known to talk to his table for a week to see how it reacts.
"To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone capable of getting themselves made President should by no means be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."
"How can I tell that the past isn't a fiction designed to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?" –The Ruler of the Universe
"My Universe is my eyes and ears. Anything else is hearsay." –The Ruler of the Universe
"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha!' It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it...because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality that like leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know they won't give up. They'll get you in the end." –Ford Prefect
(Yes, if I came across a small shack with a sign hanging over the front door on the inside reading "The Asyum", I might just start to believe...)
I don't think it's a chaotic mess. The universe is perfect. Our own solar system is a giant timepiece which keeps all the planets in their perfect moving order. It is very complex and you and I may not understand exactly how and why everything in the universe works the way it does but someone with an infinate mind would..Quote:
be such a chaotic mess?
first of all you left out the part of my quote that says humans will never prove 100% that God DOESN'T exist either. None of you athiests can show me scientific proof that God doesn't exist that I can't fight with my own scientific proof. You're also very mistaken to believe that anything has been drilled into my head so long that I would just assume anything. I don't 'think' God exists, I know he does and It's not because someone told me or because my society made me, it's because of experiences that I have had in my life that leave me with no doubt whatsoever. I have actually read the bible and many other religion's books which is more than you can say, and everything I've found in the bible only goes along with my scientific beliefs as well..Quote:
quote:Originally posted by flashpenguin
No human will EVER prove 100% that God exists with science because God doesn't want us to.
How convenient.
Did he tell you that himself, O conduit to the Heavens, or has that idea simply been drilled into your head so long that you just assume it's fact?
There's a reason for everything man.. and I've rambled on too much already but I'll just say this one thing.. Think about it logically. If God is a perfect God then logically he can only create perfect things or else he would cease to be perfect. So If he created Adam and Eve perfect then there's no way they would ever die.. they would of never experienced pain or joy.. So he had to create them perfect but allow a way for them to (on their own through disobedience) become imperfect and mortal.Quote:
"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha!'
I'm not trying to push God on you guys that don't wan't to believe he exists. That's totally your decision, but, If you're gonna claim the bible is a big fantasy lie then you should of atleast read it first. Otherwise just stick to carbon dating..
I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, but this makes me curious; why would god only be able to create perfect things? And, if they were perfect, why would they not be able to experience joy or pain?Quote:
Originally posted by flashpenguin
There's a reason for everything man.. and I've rambled on too much already but I'll just say this one thing.. Think about it logically. If God is a perfect God then logically he can only create perfect things or else he would cease to be perfect. So If he created Adam and Eve perfect then there's no way they would ever die.. they would of never experienced pain or joy.. So he had to create them perfect but allow a way for them to (on their own through disobedience) become imperfect and mortal.
Why would people have to put limits on an all-powerful being to make his actions 'logical'? Either god is an all-powerful illogical being, or he is a logical being with limited powers. Which is it?
Just so you know, I don't look down on anyone for having a sense of spirtuality, and I'm not trying to belittle you at all. I just have these few demands: I want my girlfriend to nag, my politicians to lie, and my mysterious beings to operate outside my understanding. Is that too much to ask?
"creation science" is an oxymoronic phrase
That's a good point.. In my opinion there are certain eternal laws that simply coexist with God that he didn't create.. they simply exist because they must. One example would be gravity, God didn't "create" gravity it just exists between two bodies. So God can use gravity to accomplish his works but also having a perfect understanding of all matter allows him to control these elements.Quote:
why would god only be able to create perfect things? And, if they were perfect, why would they not be able to experience joy or pain?
In the bible it says that God cannot create an imperfect thing or he would cease to be perfect. This principal is almost impossible to explain with human understanding because we don't know all the eternal truths and laws that coexist with God. For example light and truth exist eternally. God didn't create light he simply works with it. God didn't create truth it just exists. I believe that for God to create something it must be perfect when he creates it. It's not a matter of putting limits on God's power or logic. Since he has a perfect knowledge of the eternal laws of light and truth and all physical laws he knows that only by following the eternal laws will his plan work.
As for why they wouldn't be able to experience joy or pain: They were placed in the garden with no sin, they couldn't feel pain because their bodies were perfect and without pain and saddness it's impossible to feel joy and happiness, another eternal truth, there has to be an opposition in all things. They were given two commandments: 1. multiply and replenish the earth. 2. do not partake of the fruit of the tree. When eve ate the fruit and offered it to adam, adam ate the fruit too so that he would be able to be with eve in mortality and obey the first commandment which was multiply and replenish the earth.. This was called "the fall" and it wasn't just the fall of man from perfection but also the earth. The earth used to be perfect with one continent 90 degrees upright in the solar system with no polar caps and no earthquakes but then the fall changed everything, the continents broke apart, the earth became volitile, the lion no longer laid down with the lamb etc etc..
But see, isn't that an inherant contridiction? If there is something god cannot do, he is not, by definition, omnipotent. If he is not all-powerful, then there are powers in the universe other than him. If there is one all powerful force in the universe, it cannot be god (as long as that force can in fact place a burrito in a microwave).Quote:
Originally posted by flashpenguin
In the bible it says that God cannot create an imperfect thing or he would cease to be perfect.
This is the logical argument, of course. I stand by my conviction that logic, reason and reality itself are greatly works of our own imagination and should have little to no bearing on how we think about the universe.
I would also point out that creating a fundimentally flawed thing can also be perfect, if its design was to be flawed.
But it just seems to me that everyone who tries to fit god into a rational explanation using science as evidence ends up deminishing him, so in the end, what's the point?
I've read the bibile at least 5 times. Both old and new, and if you saw any of that scientific stuff you claim is in there, then you either read a different version, or you read things into it that weren't there. And really, unless you read ancient greek or aremaic, then all you've read is a bad translaton of a collection of writings from a bunch of crack brained outcasts who were too weird to live in their own society.Quote:
I have actually read the bible and many other religion's books which is more than you can say,
First, I would want to know who wrote a book before quoting it or using it as an owners manual for the "soul".
depends on how you look at it.. truth is truth.. It is impossible for truth not to be truth. The fact that God "can't" turn truth into lie or lie into truth for me doesn't make him any less omnipotent. I agree that there may be powers in the universe other than him but they are not 'more' powerful than him they simply co-exist in the order of the universe. All things in the universe recieve order from higher order. From the electron to the moon to the earth to the sun to the galaxy and the universeQuote:
But see, isn't that an inherant contridiction? If there is something god cannot do, he is not, by definition, omnipotent.
That's an interesting concept but I think if it's design was to be flawed then it wasn't designed to be perfect, it was designed to be flawed. something is only perfect if it is perfect. a sphere designed to be flawed isn't a sphere.. That theory can certainly be applied to art in my opinion because you and I both could sculpt a perfect statue but they're different from each other. I made a perfect statue of a dog and you made a perfect statue of a dog with 3 legs. Both of our statues are still perfect but your statue only has 3 legs.Quote:
I would also point out that creating a fundimentally flawed thing can also be perfect, if its design was to be flawed.
Anyways, my goal isn't to fit God into a rational explanation using science. It does't deminish him in my opinion but it's still not the best way to prove his existence. Nobody will ever believe in God because of scientific findings. Faith in God has to be metaphysical..
I read the King James version, and yes it has translation flaws, but the fundamental historical events are basically intact. As for the crackbrained outcast comment, there's really nothing I can say that would change your opinion if it's really that strong. If you doubt any of the science I've used in my posts then tell me which part and I'll give you the scripture. However all I have here in the house is a bible in spanish with none of my markings, but I'll do my best to find the verses..Quote:
Originally posted by iaskwhy
I've read the bibile at least 5 times. Both old and new, and if you saw any of that scientific stuff you claim is in there, then you either read a different version, or you read things into it that weren't there. And really, unless you read ancient greek or aremaic, then all you've read is a bad translaton of a collection of writings from a bunch of crack brained outcasts who were too weird to live in their own society.
First, I would want to know who wrote a book before quoting it or using it as an owners manual for the "soul".
Those "fundamental historical events" you speak of are just history as they saw it then. But even they, speaking of what god did or did not do was just their opinion, since they weren't there and nobody had a camcorder at the time. All they had to go on was verbal stories handed down from one believer to the next, over who knows how long. Proven time and again in modern times to not be the best way to record actual events.Quote:
Originally posted by flashpenguin
I read the King James version, and yes it has translation flaws, but the fundamental historical events are basically intact. As for the crackbrained outcast comment, there's really nothing I can say that would change your opinion if it's really that strong. If you doubt any of the science I've used in my posts then tell me which part and I'll give you the scripture. However all I have here in the house is a bible in spanish with none of my markings, but I'll do my best to find the verses..
Instead of reading biased religious works, try and diversify, read some other accounts by Romans living in the time of jesus that were not christians, read all you can and go to all the museums you can visit to find out what life was really like 2000 years ago, and 35,000 years ago when these religions were just getting started. The more recent evidence should make you very sceptical about what a few castouts were writing about, and the really old evidence, what there is of it, will at least give you an insight into how religion and a belief in omnipotent gods is more likely to be a mental abberation than actual fact.
how the hell did a thread on Einstien turn into YET ANOTHER debate on whether God is a giant lemur or not?
Just wait a thousand years and it'll be St. Albert and this stupid subject will still be hotly debated on yet another thread, page 100, 532.Quote:
Originally posted by swampy
how the hell did a thread on Einstien turn into YET ANOTHER debate on whether God is a giant lemur or not?