Game development is tough

reply to earl123:

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Quality is not all about how good something looks, quality is mostly something that is "fail" free... to most extents.

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You make a good point, $500 may well be a lot in your country, but what works out to be good for you, works out to be bad for us :).

Obviously if people from non-western countries, all start creating decent Flash work, we're all stuffed, because we can never compete with the prices you charge. But just in the same way that companies in india who charge $10 for a complete website havn't taken over the website design market I can't see the same happening with Flash either. Again (here I go again making this point for the 100th time :) ) quality will win out, if people in india/far east/eastern europe start doing Flash for low prices, then all it means is all of us in the west will just have to increase the quality of what we do, which I think will be a good thing because it will mean we can get paid what we deserve. So in otherwords if you want to make good money in the west from Flash design, you have 2 choices. Work your ass off doing 500 tiny jobs per month, or be choosey and just do 1 or 2 high quality bits of work per month, which will probably pay more then the 500 combined. Theres no point lowering and lowering your prices to compete with Flash designers who don't charge much, because where does it end? you start doing work for free? No, the answer is to go in the other direction, increase the quality of your work, and increase your prices accordingly.

As a side note, I've noticed that salaries for Flash designer/developers have increased (in the UK) by about 5k from salaries last year. It seems that QUALITY Flash designer/developers are in demand more then ever.

Hi. I know it's late to be jumping into this thread, but I wanted to add my 2 cents. (Hopefully I'm not repeating what someone already stated. I did start "skimming" posts after page 3 :p )

Back on page 1, Tonypa made a very important point. People need to stop seperating "Flash games" from just "games". You see domain names with the word "flash" in it and it creates a perception already of what to expect. There's alot of crappy games made in Flash. So if you want to avoid the stigma, then start by not promoting yourself or your games as "flash games". You don't see PopCap promoting their stuff as "C++ games!" or "Java games!" What matters to the player is the gameplay, and quality/performance of the software.

Again on page 1 was a question regarding "examples" of quality. I have examples for you..... I bet many of you didn't even know these were flash games, because the quality is so high!

Cubis 2: http://www.shockwave.com/contentPlay...bis2&preplay=1
The original Cubis I recall was coded in JAVA. When I tried this online version of the sequel, I assumed it was JAVA too. The graphics look real high quality. But then I right-clicked and to my amazement, it was Flash. I don't remember if the full download version is also Flash.

Hexic: http://zone.msn.com/en/hexic/game.htm
This ones a couple years old, but I remember when it came out the quality of the graphics was really nice for its time and big surprise, it was made in Flash (while other games around that time were being made in JAVA).

Playball: http://www.playatjoes.com/playball_web//playball2.html
It's a Bejeweled clone. Has really nice graphics (though they munged them a bit with JPEG compression). www.PlayAtJoes.com

There are many other examples out there. The bottom line is that in order to compete on a commercial level, you MUST match or exceed the graphics quality that has already been established. Alien Hominid proves this theory. It has some excellent illustration and animation. And it goes to show that if you set yourself a goal of QUALITY, then people will take your work seriously. Pump out yet another flash game with crappy vector graphics and gradients, and people might play it, but they won't buy it.

The bottom line is that Flash is a viable tool for game development, but as with everything, it is a matter of using the right tool for the job. And also the right product for the market. Someone keeps referring to Yoshi's Island. Honestly, the market for Yoshi's Island is on portable gaming devices, not the web/PC. Those days of selling side-scrollers on PC ended in the mid-90's. (And even then, side-scrollers deemed super-successful, like Jazz Jackrabbit, only sold in the range of 40,000 copies).

The market right now where Flash can be used is in casual games. That market seems to be driven by games with a gradual difficulty curve and can be played simply with the mouse.

But Flash still has some downsides:
- Ability to save data. Has this been addressed? Players expect to be able to save high scores and game progress.
- Piracy prevention: It's hard to protect Flash media from being extracted and modified. Yes, all software can be hacked, but SWFs seem much easier to, and also you can't protect your software through Windows registries, etc like C++ apps can.
- Flash player apparently doesn't play nice with the better known "trial/registration" systems out there. So even making demo/trial editions is a big pain in the butt using Flash.

~Ray

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Someone keeps referring to Yoshi's Island. Honestly, the market for Yoshi's Island is on portable gaming devices, not the web/PC.

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That "someone" is me. Isn't Flash available on some mobile devices? btw, thats not the point I was making with yoshi's island. I gave Yoshi's island as an example of what is possible with Flash, design wise and technically. Your 3 examples of high "quality" Flash games are what? 3 puzzle games. Puzzle games are not a good indicator of whats possible and whats not on a platform. I'm sure those 3 games or similar are available on the x-box, but is that all the x-box is capable of? of course not.

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Those days of selling side-scrollers on PC ended in the mid-90's.

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um....but you give "Alien Hominid" as an example of a successful side-scrolling game, which is on the pc, in Flash?? I actually don't think much of "Alien Hominid". Rough vector cartoon graphics, don't really impress me sorry, but even so, its a good example of how successful a game can be that strives for some kind of quality. Which I think proves my point.

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Pump out yet another flash game with crappy vector graphics and gradients, and people might play it, but they won't buy it.

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yes exactly.

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But Flash still has some downsides:..

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yes totally agree, with all those, but I don't see how they are good reasons NOT to do high quality games. There are lots of people out there who are making good money from Flash games, if the issues you raised where that negative that just wouldnt be possible. Having said that, they are important issues, which i'm sure adobe will do something about in the next incarnations of Flash.

I agree with you Boombanguk... developers from third world countries are starting to drive the prices down... i had a client once who wanted me to lower my prices just because some guy from india was willing to do the job for a few hundred bucks. Of course i said no... I always believe that quality comes with a price... if you want me to lower my price, then that will definitely sacrifice quality, and i don't want to be a part of that.

But again, as i metioned in my previous post, my price on quality will differ from your price of quality because of the economical background i grew up with. BUT, that's not stopping me from raising my price to your standards. Problem is, i really don't know what your standards are... 2000, 5000, or 10000 for quality coffee break game? If you go to the Boardroom section of the forums, you will see my post inquiring about it.

Anyways, no matter how cheap a game is... if the concept, game play, graphics, etc suck... then no one will buy it even for a dollar. Like even if you have 3D graphics, if it lacks good game play, it won't go beyond the first portal.

And by the way... just wanted to add regarding the comparison between online and console games. Console game developers earn more because its a regular job compared to online game developers who usually do it as a hobby or second job. If ever it's fulltime, i guess it's only on a freelance thing... not like you have a boss and deadlines and stuff.

In regards to the population of players, how many have computers with internet connection at home compared to those with PS, xbox or dreamcast? I would like to believe the former. And i guess if do a survey and ask what the top 5 things people do when they're at home are, i bet one of those things would be sitting in front of the computer or web surfing.

And lastly.... going back to the original post... game development is tough. yeah. definitely. like most of you have pointed out. games are starting to be redundant. shoot-em-up, puzzle games, arcade games, what else is new? No matter how good a quality game we all turn out to make, it won't make a difference if it's another pacman, mario, or sonic. A game has to give the players a new experience, not a new perspective. You know what i mean. bottomline is: a different gaming experience. That's your next blockbuster game right there.

Cool, this thread is livening up again :)

"Yes I agree, that a lot of companies and "shovelware" portals are willing to pay <$1000 for low quality Flash games, and that creates a distortion in the Flash games market, but if more "high" quality Flash games started appearing... then they would stand out from the 99% of Flash games crap which is out there, the public would see the difference, and in my opinion be more willing to shell out money."

It's a question of if the people with the money, the portals, see the percieved increase in value of a higher quality title.
This whole sponsorship thing really has upset the apple cart imho. It's tricky for me, 'cause I want stimunation to be as near to AAA as we can make it, everything has to be of a certain quality. And then part of me is thinking "Screw it, we can put our own good games and sponsor a load of games for next to nothing to drive the traffic to us".
It's nice to want to strive to be the best, but it's just as nice to earn more than $5 from adsense a quarter.

And if I'm thinking that, then perhaps other portals are thinking that too. Perhaps it will lead indirectly to a raising of the bar in quality terms. Say for example under the sN banner we ( If it ever happens... although that's a different story ) fill a site up with really good games and sponsor crap ones ( For want of a better term ) to drive traffic to us, we can still maintain the quality without having to host shovelware on our site ( Which is something none of us have ever wanted to do ).

"re: your comment on your page regarding Otaku...um...isn't that just then going to create even MORE shovelware?? which I thought you hated?"

Double edged sword :) I think it would be a really good thing to allow people without the ability to create games. The creative director here at preloaded started by pimping a game he'd done in the shoot'em up construction kit on the C64. On the downside, yes we always knew that it would allow script kiddies to swamp sites with really poor games done using it.
I guess the same could be said for Flash itself.

LeechmasterB, it's a game construction kit nGFX and I are developing. No links yet, but there's a fair amount of background on our blog ( See sig. )

"But hey, it's not my freakin' fault i live in a third world country!!!"

Least you have the sun there mate :)
This is another aspect, and I know it's one Tonypa and I have clashed on before, the percieved ( Western ) value of products.
It is a global economy, now more so than ever, and we ( In the West ) have to learn to adapt to it or fall by the wayside ( The car industry is the perfect example ).

"It seems that QUALITY Flash designer/developers are in demand more then ever."

Big time! Wish that £5k increase was reflected in my pay packet though ;)
Perhaps that's another downside of the current state of play. If you're used to churning out low quality for pocket money then it may be difficult to improve to get a job within the industry. For example, if you can knock something out in a couple of days and get paid for it, then you'll possibly finder it harder to spend a month or so making something good enough to sit on your cv ( And then you'll have the pleasure of being offered very little for it in comparison to it's true worth :) ).

"If ever it's fulltime, i guess it's only on a freelance thing... not like you have a boss and deadlines and stuff."

If only mate :)

Squize.

in reply to Squize:

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The creative director here at preloaded started by pimping a game he'd done in the shoot'em up construction kit on the C64.

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I collect old games making software :) (how sad is that)

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fill a site up with really good games and sponsor crap ones ( For want of a better term ) to drive traffic to us

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I disagree. Whatever it is you are doing, its going to be perceived by the public as a brand. And your "brand" is a precious thing. Anything which drags it down (i.e crap sponsored games for example) is going to hurt what you are doing. If I was you I would stick with AAA titles and just be known for that, the problem being of course, that the number of AAA Flash titles you can probably count on one hand, and then I suppose the developers of those would probably want a fair old sum to allow you to host them.

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On the downside, yes we always knew that it would allow script kiddies to swamp sites with really poor games done using it.

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um so you don't mind that? or you just don't care? :), I guess it depends upon your revenue model for what you are doing.

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then you'll possibly finder it harder to spend a month or so making something good enough to sit on your cv

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to be honest I havn't updated my cv for probably 2 years. I just rely on online examples (most of which don't exist anymore either) and the fact that I've done a lot of work for the last 2 years for a quality agency in the new media industry in the UK. But salaries are definately increasing, not exactly sure why that is. Could be that agencies have finally woken up to the fact that the future for the net is Flash (in basically every way that counts for the user), it could be that flash has become more sophisticated so that now not everyone and his dog can do something to a commercial standard in Flash, or it could just be that people who can do what we do (Flash programming) are few and far between, but I find that hard to believe.

in reply to earl123:

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A game has to give the players a new experience, not a new perspective. You know what i mean. bottomline is: a different gaming experience. That's your next blockbuster game right there.

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I think thats a good point, apart from the lack of quality in Flash games, its not exactly a field filled with innovation, strange when you think of the freedom it allows you.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

Again (here I go again making this point for the 100th time :) ) quality will win out, if people in india/far east/eastern europe start doing Flash for low prices, then all it means is all of us in the west will just have to increase the quality of what we do, which I think will be a good thing because it will mean we can get paid what we deserve.

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Interesting, so you are saying just because someone can make stuff cheaper it means the quality will be lower too? In the future all Flash games will be made in China (like all other goods) because they can make SAME quality items cheaper then you are.

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Originally Posted by Squize

On the downside, yes we always knew that it would allow script kiddies to swamp sites with really poor games done using it.

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Its possible to make bad games with every software. Most console/PC games are really-really bad, but you never know it because you have not seen or played them. Only difference is that bad console games have better graphics then bad Flash games.

I believe you dont have to be programmer to make games. Making a game is more about vision and imagination and fun then knowing correct syntax to access class property from its child. Someone who cant script even 1 line could make wonderful games if he can get tool that is easy to use so I think Otaku is great project which hopefully brings us many good games.

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Originally Posted by Ray Beez

Honestly, the market for Yoshi's Island is on portable gaming devices, not the web/PC.

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I absolutely agree. Its pointless to try to recreate such games with Flash, all you get is another bad copy.

"I disagree. Whatever it is you are doing, its going to be perceived by the public as a brand. And your "brand" is a precious thing. Anything which drags it down (i.e crap sponsored games for example) is going to hurt what you are doing."

I disagree too, it depends what spin is put on it.

"um so you don't mind that? or you just don't care? :)"

Bit of both I guess. I guess you could compare it the gun manufacturers line about they just make the guns, they don't fire them.
I think if it makes some people happy, some people inspired to improve and learn how to code themselves ( And of course some income, I'm not silly ) then I guess it'll outweigh all the crap which will be made with it. Well, if not outweigh, help vindicate it somewhat.

"or it could just be that people who can do what we do (Flash programming) are few and far between, but I find that hard to believe."

I don't. Very few people are actually any good with Flash, most can just about get by, very few people could be trusted with a large and complex project.

Squize.

TonyPa:

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Interesting, so you are saying just because someone can make stuff cheaper it means the quality will be lower too? In the future all Flash games will be made in China (like all other goods) because they can make SAME quality items cheaper then you are.

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nope, not saying that. Obviously theres lots of talented people in non-western parts of the world!. What i'm saying is that for the designers/developers in the richer countries to compete, there going to have to be able to create work which is better then whats going to be offer elsewhere correct? which means western developers increasing the quality of what they do. You seem to be saying that we might as well throw in the towel, and go do something else?

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Only difference is that bad console games have better graphics then bad Flash games.

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yes but great graphics can (and in a 3D environment great graphics can mean more then just a nice texture map, it can mean realistic animation, realistic terrain damage etc) still make a game enjoyable on a console. Great graphics can't make a bad game a good game, but it can make an average game a good game. The whole computer game industry is built (rightly or wrongly) on visuals, not playability.

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I believe you dont have to be programmer to make games. Making a game is more about vision and imagination and fun then knowing correct syntax to access class property from its child. Someone who cant script even 1 line could make wonderful games if he can get tool that is easy to use so I think Otaku is great project which hopefully brings us many good games.

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I have a lot of respect for Squize, for what he and his friend are doing. Trying to create a decent game is hard enough as it is, but trying to create a tool that allows people to create games is a whole other issue. I've created various editors over the years (in C++, assembly etc) its not an easy task. But what you say about you don't have to be a programmer to make games, um thats a nice idea, but i suspect the majority of people that will use otaku will be programmers ironically, because programming is a means to an ends, and if you can make something happen easily then i'm sure most programmers would like that.

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I absolutely agree. Its pointless to try to recreate such games with Flash, all you get is another bad copy.

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that to me is negative way of looking at it. So the answer is what?, try to create an xbox game in Flash? nope can't do that, so um maybe create another puzzle game? great...
Yoshi's Island has nice graphics and is easy and enjoyable to play over a period of time (lasts longer then 30 seconds), I was using that as an example of a standard of game development which I think can be achieved in Flash, whether once people achieve that standard people choose to re-create yoshi's island or not is up to them :)

Thanks for the kind words about otaku T, hopefully it'll live up to at least my expectations.

"i suspect the majority of people that will use otaku will be programmers ironically, because programming is a means to an ends, and if you can make something happen easily then i'm sure most programmers would like that."

I can't see it myself, coders by default are control freaks. Designers are too, but they need us coders, but ask any designer if they'd rather be able to do it themselves but without a huge time / learning investment and I'm pretty sure what the answer would be :)

Squize.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

that to me is negative way of looking at it. So the answer is what?, try to create an xbox game in Flash? nope can't do that, so um maybe create another puzzle game? great...

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If you want to make XBox game you should use tools for making XBox games, they are specially created to make XBox games so you dont have to waste time on creating basic engine, adding hardware support, managing highscores etc because all those things are already included. For such game Flash is not right tool, you would spend too much more time and effort while end result is still not good enough. Its like building bicycle from matches, sure it can be done, but you can do it much easier :)

Like a record skipping... "the right tool for the job". "the right game for the market [you are targetting]" and I'd like to add a 3rd obvious thing I forgot to mention: The right team for the job! Not everyone is cut out for making games. One problem I see out there, even with high-profile adver-games that have had $100k budgets, is you have Ad Agency types making games. That's just wrong. People making games should be people who KNOW how to make good games, not wanna-bes.

Candystand just released a new ATV racing game called 4 Wheel Blitz. This one is better than your average 3D web-game, but the gameplay feels like it is in slow-motion. Someone who really knows 3D racing games would have noticed that flaw pretty quickly. Oh well.

Another example is the Underworld web game. Alot of work obviously went into that one. The presentation and animation look great. The graphics are great. And it's multi-user, so there's alot of development work that went into this one. But the gameplay? Lousy user interface. Completely unintuitive. For me that kills the entire thing there. Those people wasted time and thousands of dollars, only to cripple the product with a crappy interface scheme.

in reply to everything RayBeez said:

Ha, where do I start. Um..lets do it this way.

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is you have Ad Agency types making games. That's just wrong. People making games should be people who KNOW how to make good games, not wanna-bes.

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Q:
WHY do you think so many console games are crap?
WHY do you think so many console games are virtually identical?
WHY do you think so many console games have good graphics but can't be played?

A: Because most console games are made in a certain way because MARKETING people have told the creatives this is what they need to do to make money. THATS WHY. Damm, it doesn't matter if its a 100k advergame or a 1million console game, most games are made the way they are because some marketing person somewhere thinks the world needs another crap unplayable driving game, or beat-em up etc. Console games involve MORE marketing people then even an high development cost Flash game, because theres more money involved and more money means more risk. So marketing people are used to find game types/genres that are low risk. I'm surprised you don't get it. When was the greatest experimentation going on in computer games? it was 10-20 years ago when the computer biz was just getting going, when technology and MARKETING PEOPLE did not control the industry. And guess what stage Flash games are at now? there at that early pre-bull stage, where people should be trying new things, where whats possible can be pushed.

I KNOW flash cannot create an x-box type game, thats not what I've been arguing, looks like i'm going to have to quote myself.

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Yoshi's Island has nice graphics and is easy and enjoyable to play over a period of time (lasts longer then 30 seconds), I was using that as an example of a standard of game development which I think can be achieved in Flash, whether once people achieve that standard people choose to re-create yoshi's island or not is up to them

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Im just saying, that the public are not going to take Flash games seriously until Flash game developers take THEMSELVES seriously. Which means higher standards. Of course it won't be easy, and it will take a lot of hard work to create games of that standard (no, again not xbox games in Flash) but its my opinion that if Flash developers strive for more, they will get the rewards.

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they are specially created to make XBox games so you dont have to waste time on creating basic engine, adding hardware support, managing highscores etc because all those things are already included

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so what? you could argue that Flash itself (and I mean F8) is a basic 2d Game engine. It has functions that people who made those great 2D games 10 years ago would have been very happy to have! And you think performance is a problem? you don't think that was also true when people where trying to recreate arcade games on home computers? or any other "advanced" (i.e more then 8 things on the screen at once) arcade games on the old systems? but they found ways around the problems raised by the platforms they where working on. The biggest drawback with Flash in my view is security. Which is a big problem.

Damn Boombang... no one's arguing against you on those points.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

so what? you could argue that Flash itself (and I mean F8) is a basic 2d Game engine. It has functions that people who made those great 2D games 10 years ago would have been very happy to have! And you think performance is a problem? you don't think that was also true when people where trying to recreate arcade games on home computers? or any other "advanced" (i.e more then 8 things on the screen at once) arcade games on the old systems? but they found ways around the problems raised by the platforms they where working on. The biggest drawback with Flash in my view is security. Which is a big problem.

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There is one problem with that point, about pushing the limits of Flash to make 3d or heavy processing games. The problem is not that pushing the limits is bad, it is just pointless when other tools can be used to achieve it with out extra work. There is no point of making no work.

When you talk about people finding it hard to code arcade games and such, they didn't have any better tools, but if they did I'm sure the would've used them. Recreating something that already exists is not purposeful, and just a waste. If it takes endless hours in flash to create something to tweak every inch of performance out of it, it may not be suitable for flash since other tools can handle the performance much better, and are built for that.

Though don't get me wrong, Flash has it's place in many circumstances, but sometimes it is just not worth it.

Interesting thread. :)

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

Im just saying, that the public are not going to take Flash games seriously until Flash game developers take THEMSELVES seriously. Which means higher standards. Of course it won't be easy, and it will take a lot of hard work to create games of that standard (no, again not xbox games in Flash) but its my opinion that if Flash developers strive for more, they will get the rewards.

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Remember that half the developers here are under 20 some even 13. This has a dramatic effect on quality. You say developers have to take themselves seriously, well i agree but you have to be a certain age to discover this. What i've gathered from this thread is that people are concerned about being underpaid and international competition don't forget that there are so many (how shall i put this...) underage developers :) around, quality and standards are never going to rise. Some people may disagree and say "It doesn't matter what age you are", i'm sorry but yes, yes it does.

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If you want to be successful you have to know your target audience, their needs and desires, simple as that.

A puzzle game is not going to be successful in a portal surrounded by action/ adventure/ racing games. However a puzzle game created for a specific client and age group is going to be very successful.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

you could argue that Flash itself (and I mean F8) is a basic 2d Game engine. It has functions that people who made those great 2D games 10 years ago would have been very happy to have! And you think performance is a problem? you don't think that was also true when people where trying to recreate arcade games on home computers? or any other "advanced" (i.e more then 8 things on the screen at once) arcade games on the old systems?

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If we had Flash8 10 years ago, it would of been super game creation software. Sadly, time has gone by and standards have been raised. And even now you can get cheaper and easier to use software for 2D arcade games. I am all for a innovation and new game mechanics and experiments and Flash can be used in such way. But it gets over my head how is recreating 10-15 years old arcade games any more "quality" then for example 1002th "escape the room adventure".

Its oh so bad that market people say which games should be done, but dont forget how much money is needed to make a game. If you are rich millionaire yourself and can hire at least 10 talented people for a year then sure, go with completely new game ideas, it doesnt matter if the game sales or not. But games are usually business and investors want their money back so the game has to sell. Even mediocre console games sell enough to make profit because time and money invested is only marginal compared to top-quality game.

You want quality Flash games, I want them too and surely everyone wants them. But who is going to make them? I mean it takes time and money and people still need feeding while making the quality game. Its not like good quality games with fabulous graphics, fantastic story, great music and 30+ hours of gameplay will pop out themselves from nowhere. Lets say you find someone with enough cash to produce such game, first question will be "why would you make it in Flash?".

in reply to UnknownGuy:

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There is one problem with that point, about pushing the limits of Flash to make 3d or heavy processing games. The problem is not that pushing the limits is bad, it is just pointless when other tools can be used to achieve it with out extra work. There is no point of making no work.

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I swear i'm talking japanese. I never said 3D, I said 2D!

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Recreating something that already exists is not purposeful, and just a waste.

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um so theres no point to ridgeracer 4 (or is it 5?) quake 4, Mario nth, burnout 3, should I go on?

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Though don't get me wrong, Flash has it's place in many circumstances, but sometimes it is just not worth it.

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Let me make this straight. I'm not suggesting making a 3D game with Flash. But I think Flash can make great 2D games, not 3D. (now someone will make a great 3D game and prove me wrong, but no ones going to be making quake 4 with Flash anyday soon)


in reply to Mr_malee:

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quality and standards are never going to rise. Some people may disagree and say "It doesn't matter what age you are", i'm sorry but yes, yes it does.

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Obviously you learn certain things from being an old fart :) and having played computer games for over 20 years, but I was programming when I was 13, and I never had the tools (i.e Flash) that are around now to play around with, so i'm not going to write off a 13 year old creating something that puts all of us oldies to shame :), having said that yes of course that would be the exception to the rule.

[QUOTE]A puzzle game is not going to be successful in a portal surrounded by action/ adventure/ racing games. However a puzzle game created for a specific client and age group is going to be very successful.[QUOTE]

I suspect games like tetris, solitaire, chess are always played many times no matter what portal they are on and surrouded by whatever arcade games. The are certain games that do well across all age groups, although obviously puzzle games do mainly appeal to older women (at least thats what the stats seem to show)

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However a puzzle game created for a specific client and age group is going to be very successful.

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I agree, but I've always been of the opinion that a good game is a good game no matter what genre it is, or platform its on.


in reply to Tonypa:

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But it gets over my head how is recreating 10-15 years old arcade games any more "quality" then for example 1002th "escape the room adventure".

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maybe I would agree if these 10-15 year old games weren't being re-released now on about every handheld system you can think of. Bubble bobble and ghouls and ghosts now being updated (but essentially the same game just with a slight pseudo 3D twist to them) as well as many other "old" 2D games. These "simple" old games are very playable, I think someone on here was bemoaning the lack of "playable" modern 3D games and that modern 3D games leave a lot of people cold, well I'm not 100% sure about that, but its a fact that a lot of older games where easier to play (apart from ghosts and goblin etc which has got to be one of the most difficult games of all time) and in many ways easier to get into. Supermario world today is just as much a great game as it was 15 years ago, the same can be said of lots of old games. But again I wasn't really talking about re-creating an exact copy of something thats gone before, I was really talking about the quality of those old games, and that I think the standard and quality that they represent IS possible now in Flash 8.

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You want quality Flash games, I want them too and surely everyone wants them. But who is going to make them? I mean it takes time and money and people still need feeding while making the quality game. Its not like good quality games with fabulous graphics, fantastic story, great music and 30+ hours of gameplay will pop out themselves from nowhere. Lets say you find someone with enough cash to produce such game, first question will be "why would you make it in Flash?".

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thats all good points, and I pretty much agree with you on all of that :), but it just seems a very negative approach. I can remember when home computers where all the rage in the UK. The Amiga being the machine everyone had and made games on. And then ID made castle wolfenstein on the PC, and everything changed. I remember thinking at the time a 3D arcade game on a PC?!? that can't be right they are for spread sheets and stuff!. If I remember correctly they where all working 9-5 jobs at the time that they created that game, and just created it in their spare time. The point here is, that they where able to go beyond what was expected on the platform, and in doing so made themselves rich and gave birth to a new industry. The modern computer game (in my opinion) comes from that time.

Another point here is teams working on a game rather then just an individual. When its true to say that its possible to create some amazing games by yourself, the kind of standard i'm talking about is a LOT easier when a group is trying to achieve it. Its interesting though, because Flash has got to be one of the largest online communities in the net. Full of lots of people willing to help others (which I and many others i'm sure appreciate). So Flash game developers must be in a prime position to network, and come together to create some great products. So thats what I suggest in response to it being a lot of hard work to achieve what I'm saying is needed. Flash developers need to find other developers to work with. To play devils advocate for a moment, could it be true to say that there is something specific about Flash GAME developers which causes them NOT to want to join others?? that they are solitary by nature?

but getting back to your post..

I work in Flash and specifically Flash games. It seems to be the rule is, its easy to make a bad Flash game, but pretty hard to make a good one. So you get lots and lots of bad Flash games, which makes everyone think thats all that is possible, when in reality its not. When I read about people using certain programming techniques (ARM for scrolling for example) it takes me back 15 years to when people where using the exact same methods for creating those games all that time ago. So technically, anything that was possible up to about say 13 years ago is now doable in Flash 8, and thats a hell of lot of games that are possible.

A theme here also is making money from Flash games, and its true that a lot of "good" Flash developers are not making anywhere near what they should (based on amount of plays their games get online) from what their working on, but in my opinion its because there "gems" are floating in a sea of crap, and the only way I see out of that is that the developers who CAN make good games, start doing so. Then there will be a clear difference between what the majority of people who make Flash games can create and what professionals can make. Of course I totally get what you are saying in regards to "is it worth the effort" ? well I guess that depends on what you think the rewards are :). My opinion is that if Flash games where of higher quality then the public would be willing to pay money for them (not as much as a console game but more then currently) and that will move the Flash games industry into the next league which is where I believe it should be.

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I swear i'm talking japanese. I never said 3D, I said 2D!

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That is why I included heavy processing games. Not all comments are necessarily directed only to you, and 3d games comes up a lot sometimes.

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um so theres no point to ridgeracer 4 (or is it 5?) quake 4, Mario nth, burnout 3, should I go on?

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I was not speaking about sequels or games, but more game creation engines, etc.... Creating sequels can be great, I was more talking about recreating the tools to make it in Flash when it already exists in other programs.

And I do agree that flash can make great 2d games, but everything has it's place.

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Originally Posted by Ray Beez

Another example is the Underworld web game. Alot of work obviously went into that one. The presentation and animation look great. The graphics are great. And it's multi-user, so there's alot of development work that went into this one. But the gameplay? Lousy user interface. Completely unintuitive. For me that kills the entire thing there. Those people wasted time and thousands of dollars, only to cripple the product with a crappy interface scheme.

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True... True...

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

Because most console games are made in a certain way because MARKETING people have told the creatives this is what they need to do to make money. THATS WHY. Damm, it doesn't matter if its a 100k advergame or a 1million console game, most games are made the way they are because some marketing person somewhere thinks the world needs another crap unplayable driving game, or beat-em up etc.

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As far as i know all successful great games were made w/o any marketing people :-) Obviously these marketing guys thought that they know everything about game design much better then developers :-) I can remember the first 3D clones of most successful titles in gaming industry. They were created because marketing guys decides that their next title must be 3D and it will better then HL or Quake just because 3D rules :-) All of them failed :-)

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Originally Posted by UnknownGuy

There is one problem with that point, about pushing the limits of Flash to make 3d or heavy processing games. The problem is not that pushing the limits is bad, it is just pointless when other tools can be used to achieve it with out extra work. There is no point of making no work.

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I remember some article which I read about doom title development. There were written that in time when this game was created there were a lot of limits in C language and when code was released to public it was looks like the guys from idSoftware used programming tricks almost in every row of the code just because to be above the language boundaries. :-) If you know how to make usual things, be sure there are 10 thousands other programmers know about that too. To compete in game industry you must be tricky. That what will give you to be exceptional and successful with your title.

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Originally Posted by mr_malee

Remember that half the developers here are under 20 some even 13. This has a dramatic effect on quality. You say developers have to take themselves seriously, well i agree but you have to be a certain age to discover this.

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Most people who participate in this thread are flash oldies :-) Tell me if I'm wrong :-)

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Originally Posted by tonypa

I am all for a innovation and new game mechanics and experiments and Flash can be used in such way. But it gets over my head how is recreating 10-15 years old arcade games any more "quality" then for example 1002th "escape the room adventure".

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I believe that Flash capable now to make visuals much greater than any 10-15 years old title. There is lot of desire for newbie game programmers to make games with Flash and its perfect tool to make games with it. The problem that we have so many craps that people does not want to invest their time and skills to make something revolutionary. It's very easy to make a 10th clone of "defend a Castle" game in something about 2 days, then to work hard during several month with "death in Sakkara" :-) Therefore we see another "defend a Castle" game clone instead of see something brilliant. Besides this they know what amount of money they can get from sponsor programs where they have no idea on how much they can get from another "HA3" clone.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

maybe I would agree if these 10-15 year old games weren't being re-released now on about every handheld system you can think of. Bubble bobble and ghouls and ghosts now being updated (but essentially the same game just with a slight pseudo 3D twist to them) as well as many other "old" 2D games. These "simple" old games are very playable,...

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That what exactly goes to be this year. This week I found some interesting topic which has direct connection to what we discuss here gentlemen. Here some cut from it:
"...From Mark Arenz and his Ridiculopathy site full of ridiculousness comes this hilarious new adventure with an old-school dungeon flair...."
It’s from the Jay Flash games blog. Full article can be found here, as well as a game link :-)
I've saw this engine first released on "Outside of Society" several years ago, but only now we can see some complete game (which stills looks crappy and has lack of good gfx and gameplay) .... But it's just a beginning ;-)
The history goes back to make new circle and we'll see it with Flash games. The first games appeared in Flash were point and click Quests, then when the Flash started to be more powerful we saw lots of Puzzles and Platform games. Now we're going to see RPG games arise :-) I can imagine in Flash v.15.0 will see some 3D implementation to it. It's more then what will go to be. I remember what I’ve read in some interview with Bill Gates about the future of internet. He thinks about 3D in it. It's just the matter of time guys.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

Another point here is teams working on a game rather then just an individual. When its true to say that its possible to create some amazing games by yourself, the kind of standard i'm talking about is a LOT easier when a group is trying to achieve it. Its interesting though, because Flash has got to be one of the largest online communities in the net. Full of lots of people willing to help others (which I and many others i'm sure appreciate). So Flash game developers must be in a prime position to network, and come together to create some great products.

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Are you ready to unite with the other Flash developer to create a next revolutionary title? Or all you can say is "Do you know, mate... It's a pretty good idea, but I can't participate in your project because I haven’t time to help you?" All what I saw until now in threads regarding to make something together was some crappy engine made in initial stage of the project by one person (who realized that he was incapable to finish it) and a lot of newbie discussed on how cool it will be when it will be finished :-)

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

A theme here also is making money from Flash games,...

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Why all of the threads ended with this?
The only thing need to create successful game is dedication and desire to work hard to make something revolutionary. I remember two guys that made MYST game (the first one). I think the money was the last thing they thought about.
My mother always said to me that EVERY product has their customers. If you make something chip and simple - you'll get customers need it, if you make $30.000 websites - you’ll get your customers too (in case when you capable to hold that level standards), when you spend 3 long years to create something brilliant, revolutionary which will go above the boundaries - do it. And don't worry about the users. There are plenty of talented people here, and who knows which titles they do? I want to conclude that one 100 carats brilliant worth more then 10 of ten carats. Same with the games.....

Happy coding :-)

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Originally Posted by OpethRockr55

That also raises the question of how much time will someone want to put into their Flash game. I doubt anyone wants to spend 10+ years creating the next Half-Life of Flash, so they make simple games; however, there are some people who are willing to put in the time and effort to do amazing things and are well rewarded for their efforts.

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Originally Posted by The Helmsman

The only thing need to create successful game is dedication and desire to work hard to make something revolutionary.

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See? I knew what I was typing four thread pages ago.

in reply to Helmsman

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They were created because marketing guys decides that their next title must be 3D and it will better then HL or Quake just because 3D rules :-) All of them failed :-)

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great games of the past where not all created by the marketing people no, but i'm sure some of those games can owe their success to marketing, otherwise they would of never got the exposure they needed to be successful. But that was back then, nowdays 99% of games are created due to focus groups and market surveys, and no willingness to take a "risk".

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Are you ready to unite with the other Flash developer to create a next revolutionary title? Or all you can say is "Do you know, mate... It's a pretty good idea, but I can't participate in your project because I haven’t time to help you?"

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most people who are in to creating flash games for a living are obviously doing it to make as much money as possible. This basically means time. Which is why a lot of developers are not about to spend a lot of that time helping someone else earn a living! Because its hard, either you have a full time job, and you do Flash games on the side and you havn't got a lot of time, or you do Flash games full time, and you spend all your time split between working on commerical contracts (to pay the bills) and looking for those commercial contracts, again no time left over for much else. Its also a control thing, I know I like being in control of any projects i'm involved with. Having said all that, teams are still the way to go for high quality Flash games, and Flash the community is uniquely placed to setup those kinds of teams. I think if people could clearly see a financial reward for being in part of a team, then I think thats enough for them to use some of their time doing that. But thats the problem with the Flash games industry right now....there isn't one.

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Originally Posted by Boombanguk

in reply to Helmsman
Because its hard, either you have a full time job, and you do Flash games on the side and you havn't got a lot of time, or you do Flash games full time, and you spend all your time split between working on commerical contracts (to pay the bills) and looking for those commercial contracts, again no time left over for much else.

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Well I have to disagree. I remember that while doing commercial things for a living, we still decided to develop a platform game + level editor in flash in order to:

a) learn new flash skills
b) have another kind of product to offer to the customers
c) do something more chalenging than the "easy" stuff that customers are happy with anyway

So I think it's a personal chalenge AND a good thing for business as well.

You always find time if you really want to do something.

When people say "I don't have time to go to swim" that really means "I don't want to use my time for that kind of activity".

It's all about choice...

in reply to artlink:

be nice if life was as simple as that :), unfortunately it never is. But my reply was in response to someone asking would I become involved in a team situation, and the above was my reply to that. The bottom line is I would be prepared to be involved in a team situation if I felt it was a good use of my time, and the right kind of financial reward. I agree with a lot of peoples gripes on FK that too many come on here wanting to make something happen and expecting people to pitch in their time and energies without no clear financial reward. Time is money, and that the point I was making above. Add to that the Flash freelancing world is VERY competitive. Squize may question whether there are lots of people that do what we do, but all I know is when a possible contract comes up from an agency, there are at least 10 people always on hand to do that work. Agencies can get away with not having to charge what they should for Flash work simply because its a sellers market. If flash game designers/developers really where in such short supply, then we would be getting paid a hell of a lot more then we do now!

Well, we don't all work on Flash productions for the money. Some of us, including myself, spend about 50% of our free time creating random things in Flash. A few of us are still too young for work, so we develop our skills in hopes that we'll one day be needed for something great.

I'm one of those who can't sleep at night, and nothing worth watching is shown on television, so I work on my internet projects. Right now, I'm hard at work on a beat 'em up side-scrolling game that features characters from my favorite forums. It has a stat-based physics engine, which is used to give it a more progressive feeling than your average Flash game. I'm only about 10% done with the coding, though.

I don't expect help from anyone, but I still ask, because I hope for help from as many people as possible. I've recruited a music composer and a friend who has invested a lot of time into Lightwave. I'm also waiting on a bit of artwork from a fellow artist for the website. So there you have it, a Flash project that's completely non-profit and still looking awesome.

well thats cool, I hope your project goes well :)

Been some great points been raised here whilst I've been through the hell of moving house this w/end.

"One problem I see out there, even with high-profile adver-games that have had $100k budgets, is you have Ad Agency types making games. That's just wrong. People making games should be people who KNOW how to make good games, not wanna-bes."

Totally. Also, and I know I've said this many times before, there is a world of difference between a game developer and a programmer. To develop good games you need to have a feel for them, which I think comes from experience. In a way I'm so lucky to be an old fart 'cause I've grown up throught the 8/16 bit era, and those are the sorts of games which are ideal for Flash. I think everyone my age has a big advantage 'cause we saw games through fresh eyes. How many people aged 13-14 would enjoy firing up Uridium on a C64 ? It's 'cause they've played better and bigger games, although the gameplay in those old games is still good even today.
And going back to my original point, there are a lot of people here who are better coders than me, but doesn't mean all of them are better game developers than me.

"Well I have to disagree. I remember that while doing commercial things for a living, we still decided to develop a platform game + level editor in flash"

Sorry, got to disagree with you mate. Boombanguk had it spot on. When working in a commercial enviorment you don't have the luxury to really push and experiment. A lot of the "gloss" of commercial work is down to the designer and not the coder. If you look at the two games I did for Death in Sakhara they are pretty good, but nothing radical about them at all. They both used my scroller class that I've already posted here. I had about 4 days on each, that includes all the tweaks and adding the love. No where near enough time to push things as hard as I would have liked.

"I know is when a possible contract comes up from an agency, there are at least 10 people always on hand to do that work. Agencies can get away with not having to charge what they should for Flash work simply because its a sellers market."

Got to be honest, I was lucky and didn't have to freelance for too long, but I know we ( preloaded ) have a mare trying to get Flash games developers on board. A million and one designers who can do a bit of Flash to knock out a quiz, or base something on a FK open source, but very few people who can do something more than that.

Squize.

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In a way I'm so lucky to be an old fart 'cause I've grown up throught the 8/16 bit era, and those are the sorts of games which are ideal for Flash. I think everyone my age has a big advantage 'cause we saw games through fresh eyes. How many people aged 13-14 would enjoy firing up Uridium on a C64 ? It's 'cause they've played better and bigger games, although the gameplay in those old games is still good even today.

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Couldn't agree more. Firing up the amstrad or, a bit later, the sega mastersystem (the hip-cat devices of my early gaming days) was way more exciting for me than a ps2 or xbox now. They're the games that birthed my passion for games, and because they're possible to emulate in flash, i can apply that passion to my flash games. Thats got to be an advantage.

in reply to squize:

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And going back to my original point, there are a lot of people here who are better coders than me, but doesn't mean all of them are better game developers than me.

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I agree. Having played all kinds of games for over just over 20 years, it gives you a certain instinct for what works interactively and what doesn't. I think the difference with me and perhaps some others on here is that i'm still playing games :), maybe that means i've never grown up, but I loved the thrill of exploring an unknown fantasy world when I was 13 and that hasn't changed.

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....They both used my scroller class that I've already posted here. I had about 4 days on each, that includes all the tweaks and adding the love. No where near enough time to push things as hard as I would have liked.

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Unfortunately this is true, trying to make money from doing something we all love (i.e Flash games developement) is a full time job in itself.

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Got to be honest, I was lucky and didn't have to freelance for too long, but I know we ( preloaded ) have a mare trying to get Flash games developers on board. A million and one designers who can do a bit of Flash to knock out a quiz, or base something on a FK open source, but very few people who can do something more than that.

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A lot of people who I know who worked in-house are now working freelance (although sometimes on a "in-house" basis). I've even seen jobs advertised making fun at the fact that all Flash developers are now freelance. I've always refused to work in-house, either full time or on a contractual basis (which seems to defeat the objective of being freelance to me) for many reasons, which I won't go into here, which I know has lost me some jobs in the past, but thats fine by me.

in reply to IFrit:

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i can apply that passion to my flash games. Thats got to be an advantage.

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It is absolutely, but whats more of an advantage is having actually been involved in programming those old games :), because of course like you said the development of them and whats possible on Flash now is similar, so it gives you a head start.

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Originally Posted by Squize

Sorry, got to disagree with you mate. Boombanguk had it spot on. When working in a commercial enviorment you don't have the luxury to really push and experiment.

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I don't need you to agree on it: I DID IT. It's not a theory or a wish, it was the way the company was managed and each project was a chalenge, experimenting new technics all the time, and I am talking here about 1 week to create an ad for tv or something like that and still, experimenting with flash.

Maybe you enjoy selling the same "scroller class that you've already posted here" again and again. Sorry mate, life is too short and will be too boring not taking any risk. Don't need to be bury with the safe full of cash but having try as much as possible.

We've created ads in 4 days for 25K, but nothing beats a piece of flash code that actually does what you expected it to do.

It's a question of choice, but you don't have to like the idea.

Hmmmm maybe you want to pull your horns in a little bit there.

It's not through choice that I re-cycle code where ever possible, and it's not through choice that I don't get to do a 100% creatively what I want to do. I work to deadlines and budgets and clients' expectations.

I'm quite content with our statue in the industry and quite content with the awards we've picked up.

There is a world of difference between not being able to do totally what you want to do due to outside and real life pressures, and producing crap. We've never produced crap.
Wanting to be more inovative with my code isn't the same as churning out the same old thing over and over, it's a case of being smarter when using existing assets.

Squize.

oh please after all this nice discussion of indie gaming and the future of flash gaming, must you now try to turn it into a pissing contest? Artlink, please, there are lots of professional invloved in this discussion, all of whom I'm quite sure could whip out some big impressive numbers reagrding commercial projects, let's not go down that road ey?

Chris

seeing it was my point that start this little spat, i guess I better make my point clear! :)

in reply to artLink:

if you can produce a tv ad in 1 week, then more power to you :), we all have to live with the quality of the work we produce. And the standards we use to judge our work is based on many factors, such as how much the client is willing to pay? and how long have I got to do this? There is a question here though relating to Flash and Flash games specifically, and that is, is "good" good enough? to most clients it is, because there just isn't the time with most projects to go beyond that, and they are happy that they have a good playable game. We are of course here talking about games used in marketing capaigns, NOT Flash games created for the sake of playing them as you get on portals, and on that subject i've said lots of times on here that I don't think the quality IS good enough.

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oh please after all this nice discussion...

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God!

I think it was all going very depressing actually and I just couldn't take anymore of the negative thinking of you guys. I aint even sure if you realize how negative you think.

Yes you can make a living developing flash games
Yes you can experiment things while making profits in a rough commercial system. And not only you can but you have to I think.

It's not what I think, it's what I have done.

It was just getting so silly that I felt like hearing 14 yo talking about their dad's company and not having a clue of what it really is to manage a company.

I don't care about the amount of money - I am currently working for a non-profit organisation thats enough to say, earning 4 times less than if I had to answer the phone in an IT out there - it's just numbers to give you example.

"nice discussion"...good grief!

It was an "interesting" one and that's what it has to be, not an "no realistic but nice one".

Game development is though...luckily, won't be fun otherwise.

errrr......okay....I shall not involve msyelf any further in this discussion, I must have misunderstood something along the way, I'm pretty sure myslef, squize and others, know that you most certainly can make a living out of flash games, whether it be for your own compnay or within in an agency, neither is easy, in terms of balancing development times against budgets, or brand guidelines against the needs of the game, but it can be done.

laters

Not about game development, but I found it is related to this thread: "Flash Developer Survival Guide".
http://www.lordalex.org/2006/01/flas...ival-guide.php

good link tonypa

Some article which will be interesting to all of you guys:
link
Found it today - and it's pretty good! It's all about we've discussed in that thread. Happy reading!

I read a post from tony a while back and he said something along the lines of chaina making all of the flash games because they can make them cheeper. Why dose the poor quality of flash games screw up the flash dev world and not with the C++ world. I have played and seen heeps of no hoper C games.

I am guessing it has somthing to do with the amount of poor quality flash games being put out there. :( How sad