We need competition badges for the winners, to place in our footers :) Each months winner should decide the next months topic or chose someone for the job. But have an over all person running the comps.
Printable View
We need competition badges for the winners, to place in our footers :) Each months winner should decide the next months topic or chose someone for the job. But have an over all person running the comps.
I did mention pages back that gamingyourway would possibly put up a prize. If I thought it wouldn't bring the arsehole out in people then we def. would, but atm I'm not so sure.
As pseudobot put it, not everything in life is about the money, and I wouldn't want the thought of a couple of quids worth of prize affecting the comp.
To try and clarify my position on the whole what should be allowed thing, a little prototype here and there isn't the end of the world. So your colour tinting methods for example, or your preloader code, or your key scanner routine etc.
The basic nuts and bolts, fine.
My issue is, the theme is "water", sweet let me get my as3 tile based engine into that, and my path finder, and I can include my cool particle effects etc. whilst other devs don't have that luxury.
Wes I know where you're coming from, it may seem a bit self defeatist of me to diss the games before they're ever written, but I'm being realistic.
A 48hr comp is really about 10-16 hours development time in real life. That's coming up with a concept based on some obscure word, writing a game about it, debugging it, gathering all the assets ( Sounds too ) etc.
It's not easy to do something in that time scale, and for the previous 6 comps the good entries have been great considering that, but not good enough to even consider getting sponsored.
If the idea behind this is to make a really great game, then well that really great game should be written anyway. Having a gun to your head in public shouldn't change that.
As to open sourcing... what the hell, it seems such a bone of contention, if people don't want to do it then don't. If it's that important to people and / or they think they can have a commercial product at the end of 48 hours then keep the code to yourself.
If I enter I'll be open sourcing my game, hopefully other people will think the same. This could be a really great learning source ( How many times have we seen threads along the lines of "You should only use 1 frame, and 1 enterFrame", after this we'll have real working examples of that to point people to as an alternative to the crap Flash5 files in the Movies section. Wow, I've turned into render ;) ).
pseudobot glad you're up for running it dude.
"If this gets resolved, Im going to make a thread for the theme, and the comp will then probably start on the 1st of october."
Do it, I'm sure this thread will keep running along side the theme idea thread and everything will be sorted and we'll all be good on time.
hooligan great post mate, totally agree with every word in there.
Squize.
I helped set up a coding challenges thread on another forum a while ago, (here) which has been running successfully now for three and a half years, with a new challenge being set about every two weeks. Perhaps I can give a few suggestions which might help get this one going in the right direction.
Firstly, I would suggest not diving into the first challenge until a complete set of rules has been agreed upon and clearly listed. I have seen challenge threads like this last for a couple of weeks and then die because the rules weren't fully thought out and discussed. In our thread, the rules were discussed and debated, just like people are doing here, until we had something we were all happy with. I would strongly suggest against allowing any one person - even the thread initiator, to simply say 'Right, I've decided - it's going to be like this.....'. That just won't work. You need to propose a rule, and get agreement. It's also a good idea to include into the rules a system of challenge setting and judging which allows the thread to run continuosly regardless of who comes and goes in the community, and whether a challenge gets any entries or not. Our thread has the following rules which have helped to force continuity:
1. The person who wins the current challenge becomes the next challenge setter.
2. The challenge setter is the judge for the current challenge, and must select a winner and a runner up.
3. The challenge setter may enter, but may not judge him/herself the winner.
4. The challenge setter will set the time limit according to difficulty. The challenge setter may extend the deadline by 24 hours if there is a very good reason, but extensions must not be made during the final 24 hours of the challenge.
5. If nobody enters within the time limit, the challenge setter must set a new challenge.
6. If the challenge setter fails to judge entries or set a new challenge within 24 hours of the deadline, responsibility for judging and setting a new challenge will pass to the previous runner up. If that person also fails to act promptly, entrants may vote for a winner and new challenge.
People also need to discuss the underlying purposes of the challenges. If it's to be educational in some way, then I would really make it open source coding. If someone is so precious over their code because they think it has great commercial value, then perhaps this kind of community challenge isn't for them in the first place. Without seeing other people's code and techniques, there is a real limit as to what you can learn that you couldn't by just looking at any other completed game.
The question as to whether to allow media or not was hotly debated at the start of our thread too. In the end, we agreed that the challenges were more about coding techniques, and not about who had the biggest/best library of assets. My thoughts for this would perhaps be to allow anything which has been created within the flash IDE or procedurally from code - ie vector art, but disallow any imported media such as images and videos.
If media is to be allowed, I would suggest that either the challenge setter supplies a limited amount of media for use at the beginning of the challenge - or only allow open source media which is available to everyone. This would help to create a more level playing field.
You will also need a clear ruling on whether 3rd party code is allowed or not. Personally I would suggest that any classes or addons which are open source and available to everyone should be allowed, as learning to use 3rd party classes can be a very constructive and educational process. But any addons which are commercial should be disallowed as they would offer an unfair advantage to those that have it. As for code the entrant has written himself previously - I would suggest that is acceptable too - recycling code is an important skill in software development, and if the author is willing to show this pre - written code to the community, then no-one should be turning down the opportunity to take a look at it.
One final thought - does each challenge necessarily have to be a complete game? If the challenges are short in terms of time, then a complete game may be asking a lot. In our challenge thread we have plenty of challenges which are to make a mini-game, but we also have many challenges which are to create an effect, a demo, or an application - all the sorts of thing which may be used as just one component in a game you might make one day.
Just my thoughts. Hope it works out. :)
In response to Squize: *shrug* I've made my points, convincingly as far as I'm concerned. People can decide for themselves now.
One thing I do feel like pointing out, however, is that I barely mentioned money at all in any of this. Everybody keeps jumping on the "not everything has to be all about the money, i'm better than you because i live in a box, yadda yadda yadda" angle, but my problems with open source weren't even about the money. And the reason that I want these contests to result in good games isn't about the money either. So the hippy communist argument is invalid, and so are all of the arguments that have come from it.
I also don't like the fact that you've taken it on yourself to decide for everyone who should/will run the contest.
To _Ric_: Very helpful post and very valuable advice. I suspect that it will be even more helpful once we get closer to settling the finer points of the rules.
Wow, I really need to start spending more time on FK, this thread has three new page since my last visit here!
So the main debate is about open sourcing and using your own pre-made assets?
If you people are going to get all up in arms about this then why bother? I'd hope this competition would foster a helpful, happy environment. Which it was early on in the thread until people got opinions :P
So I say, if you don't want to open source your files, fine, don't. I expect though, that most high-up flash devs here (ie: the one's we can learn most from anyway) won't be too concerned about open sourcing. I say leave it up to the developer, it is their work after all. Although I do think it would be great if more people rather than less went open source.
As far as pre-made assets go, there's not really any easy compromise here. I would naturally be in favor of letting anything go, the complex a project, the more you can learn from it when it's open sourced, right?
Although I'd like to come back to the point that this should be something that helps bring the community together, not make them bicker with each other over silly, trivial points.
So, when do we start? :)
agree as well with the not must to open source, the ones that can and want should do whenever possible- the others are not forced or treated different.
As for pre- made assets or graphics- I might be able to provide sometimes some tiles, sprites, graphics and alike- though it should be free if people want to use it or not- just a helper.
Or it could be that people can share free tiles/ graphics,... on the thread so that others who like it can use it as well.
Edited 'cause I'm just adding fuel to the fire.
Squize.
My votes on the issues:
Open/Closed Source: Up to the submitter as to whether they release source or not. I will probably release all mine every time. IMO concepts are much more valuable than code - and that is a person-to-person transfer, not a machine-to-machine transfer.
Code Reuse: Despite being a reuse freak most of the time, I actually frown on this in the current setting. IMO a 48hr comp is all about innovation - if you're importing a significant code from elsewhere (like squize said - particles, tiles, pather) you're just cloning your old work. Small classes that are commonly avaiable are fine IMO (key handler, vector class, etc). Maybe we could add a requirement that any code reused must be shared on request?
Asset Reuse: Same position as code. Reuse your favorite button and font arrangements all you like. But if you have awesome sprite sheets for a whole suite of characters, save them for your opus and not the 48hr comp.
Asset Sources: Make em yourself, no GIS, no screengrabs from other games. Any authoring tool is fine, not just flash or vector art. If the gameplay is solid, it will shine through even with simple art, a la crayon physics. Music and sound is a mixed bag for me - tougher to make on your own if you don't have a mike. I lean towards permitting google-found sounds and music.
Resource links: We should provide our favorite links to help new competitors. Thinking of things like SFXR, musagi, whatever tools you use to make your content.
Could I just suggest everyone whose interested have a look through beatcows threads that IP kindly posted a couple of pages back.
He ran 6 comps flawlessly, everyone who entered had fun, those who didn't got a ton of good games to play and vote on.
There are points about not re-inventing the wheel in regards code, the same should go for the comp itself.
If afterwards people want to open up their code, all well and good, if they don't then it's their choice.
This at times has turned into a slightly barbed thread when there's no need for it when there's an excellent template for how it should unfold already in place.
Squize.
Yeah why fix something that was never broken. So guess we just hang out for the comp to start?
Thanks for the advice Ric, very helpful :)
My opinions:
-It should be up to the developer to decide about making it open source (I personally will do it) or not.
-Pre-made code should be allowed too because of the learning point of view of the comp. It will be very useful to learn from scripts that someone has put time an effort into to get something nice working.
Cool stuff dude! good idea, providing links to helpful things would be cool. I recommend soundsnap, which has a cool amount of useful and quality sounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by rachil0
There are obviously quite some differences of opinion here. Here are some possible work arounds, which may or may not be combined.
- Two winners, "open source" and "closed source"
- Or variation: scores out of 5 for appearance, stability, fun, x-factor and "code documentation". Where "code documentation" could be a source dump (useful to some extent) or a mini-tutorial on the technique, including snippets, but not including basic engine, which IMHO would be more useful all around, without actually requiring full code disclosure.
- You can re-use code/assets, and long as they are published on the internet beforehand. ie, put your tile images/engine on the internet for everyone to see and use. This levels the playing field, without the pain of re-writing, and could be win-win.
- Try the 2X2 combos of (open vs closed) and (pre-made vs new) in the first 4 comps and see who actually participates
- Open source does not have to be GPL, ie you could make the code available for viewing (learning) but require some other license for using in a professional game. (again, could be win-win)
My personal opinion is that one very underrated skill in game development (any coding for that matter) is the ability to build personal collection of base code that you can apply to new projects. Not just "engine" stuff, but all the little things like ascii parsing etc. The question as to whether it if fair in newbies - it will help them too - and possibly more. Obviously not for the first game, but it will for the second. Consider the increase in quality from someone experienced from game 1 to game 2 - small I would think. Then think about the newbie who bases game 2 on game 1 and adapts it to meet the new theme. 40 of the 48 hours saved right there - then they can get on with the real task of making the game fun.
Or someone could just start running the event already and if you don't like the rules, don't play.
LOL! I agree with IP.. so simple, yet apparently so very hard to do. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ImprisonedPride
I understand that sometimes this kind of arguing is necessary to make things fair in everyone's interests, but all of this disagreement seems to be getting in the way of a really good idea. :) Once the rules are set out, I look forward to giving one of these comps a shot.
Viza.
i'll join in once the business is sorted.
Viza, the wise one known as Squize once wrote, "Where the hell have you been, mate?"
Seriously I thought you fell off the planet.
Maybe this helps with setting up rules and such
http://www.ludumdare.com/wiki/
Ok, so we basically got some things done:
Rules
1. Games can be either Open source or closed source, although open source is preferred.
2. No spritesheets can be used, unless created after the competition started
3. It all has to be your own work, except for SoundFX/Music, in which case we have to put a link to where we got it from, and avoid plagarism.
4. Pre-made code/assets: Left to dicuss (although in my opinion, small code (no more than 50 lines) should be allowed, but anything over it Im not shure about)
Im making a thread for the theme noew. The competition will start on the first of october, in GMT, as long as we can agree on the rules by then.
-Pseudobot
:)
the thread for the theme has been made, check my signature.
And I decided I will make a banner for the winner of the game challenge. I do not have TOO much experience with GIMP, but will get something decent to put in the signature.
:)
Great, sounds cool! I think your getting this on very well :thumbsup: Btw, how will be the voting system? Everyone votes only for one game, or will there be categories, and one overall winner?