Argh, ;)
I hope (If your sane) you'll agree that its much easier to stop a mad man with a knife than a mad man with a gun
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Argh, ;)
I hope (If your sane) you'll agree that its much easier to stop a mad man with a knife than a mad man with a gun
I've been in both situations... I can't say that stopping either when I was unarmed was "easy". And that's with training...
If i had to stop a mad man i would rather do it with my gun than with my knife ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tidenburg
its good to see that, for once, we are finally moving toward an agreement over this subject! ;)
rather than getting into the statistics, history, etc. as we've done before, how about a twist.
what is the underlying motivation for non-US citizens to debate this issue?
do you believe that our citizens being armed will somehow harm you or people in your country? do you fear that your country will adopt similar laws?
just curious why you seem so determined to argue with us about why we should change our laws. im not really impressed that the reason is that you're worried about our citizens getting hurt. so, what gives?
Wow I just re-red my post and it seems badly put lol.
Rephrase!
its much easier to stop a mad man who has a knife than a mad man who has a gun.
@ Flashlackey:
It's an opinion, I'm entitled to one. As people say, this is the age of information, people want to know whats going on and people will inevitably have opinions about things. Your post is kind of like saying that your not gonna get involved if someones abusing their child next door, after all, it's their kid wadda you care?
p.s. I'm not saying America is abusing its citizens ;)
Are you kidding me? These men may be SOME of the forerunners of the science behind what made up the first microchip, but really...? Hypothesis is still paper, or thought not proven. That's like saying the cavemen invented the internet... well, they figured out how to communicate with one another, didn't they?Quote:
Originally Posted by lesli_felix
The crap they teach in UK schools must be as bad as the crap they teach in US schools...
You are not only a fool for believing them, but a fool for repeating them.
Not a dig, seriously. All thought is based upon other thought.....so, no one has "original thought". Cavemen thought of the wheel, are they credited for the invention of the automobile? No, that would be Henry Ford, another American... We all laugh at Al Gore's supposed "proclamation" of "inventing" the internet, while really what he did was help the US Defense Dept implement it by voting for it in Congress. But you go right on ahead and claim that UK mathematicians invented the modern desktop computer...
What works on paper does not generally work in reality.
Pretty simple actually. Because we give a damn about 30 odd people being killed by some mad man, no matter what country it occurs in. Plus many of us probably have closer connections or affinity with the US than some other countries where other violent events might occur.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashLackey
It's not really that difficult to appreciate is it?
I have very good friends in the US (one - who has a wife and two kids - who would be my best man should I ever get married). I have visited and will visit the US. Again, very understandable reasons, no?Quote:
do you believe that our citizens being armed will somehow harm you or people in your country?
That's the one thing I have no fear of thank god!Quote:
do you fear that your country will adopt similar laws?
Steam Engine? Industrial Revolution?
How would you have made the internet without a telephone?
There. Now we all helped each other, competition over.
Tell you what, I'll provide an apology once I get one from you for banning me for something you then went and did the very next day to someone else. How's that?Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick
My response after the initial sentence was not merely to your post, but also to another one (hence the paragraph break). Sorry it wasn't spelt out, and previously I have apologised to others for not making that clear (and indeed to you), but since there have been other times where you have not done so but instead have insinuated that I should be able to understand the context rather than you spell it out for me, well heck, I'll do the same this time. So go back and read all the posts and I'm sure you're intelligent enough to understand the context. I have no qualms about giving you credit for that.
Your points lose all credibility when you ask us not to do something and then turn around and do exactly that thing. "Do as I say not as I do".
But please, explain to me again before you get into more personal insults how exactly this contributes or continues the discussion about gun laws:
Reads more like a personal insult on a person's viewpoint than some item of interest or commentary on gun laws. But that could be just me. ;)Quote:
It's so easy to be a critic and never fully commit to anything other than a nebulous "point" that really just can be relegated to a simplified "finger point" and an evasive language that really answers nothing, solves nothing, says nothing.
It's easier for them to point a finger than it is for them to correct what is going on in their own country...Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashLackey
USA == TheWorldsScapeGoat;
..|..
telephone is american. but the automobile, at least internal combustion power, is german
I just want to say, I have no problem with the way that your country is run, and it can keep its amendments until the end of time, I'm certainly not using the US as a scapegoat and ATM moment I don't see anything wrong with the way my country is run as i'm sure you see nothing wrong with yours
And so endeth any point if there ever was one of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by EVPohovich
I showed patience in that thread. I at least was civil enough and allowed you back. And you were warned multiple times. Learn how to listen to civil requests for a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
Where? Because I was as nebulous as "members in the thread"... you want to cry foul? You do it to the point of perfection.Quote:
Your points lose all credibility when you ask us not to do something and then turn around and do exactly that thing. "Do as I say not as I do".
As I stated earlier. Stop deflecting.
Apologize for lying as I had pointed it out, or do not. It's testament to what kind of person you truly are.
I did not state anything about anybody "hating the US"... you brought that into a conversation where you quoted me and directed that rhetoric towards me.
Which was a lie.
lesli_felix, silverx2, EVPohovich and a few others in this thread can share my foxhole any day if a fight were to begin. TheOriginalFlashDavo, no offense, but I'm not sure what to say about your opinions, I respect them however you CLEARLY have no idea what it means to be an American. It also seems that the concept of separate states eludes you completely.
Two things I would like to say, one... I will guarantee that we will find out shortly that the perpetrator of the recent shootings in Virginia will be shown to have been on an “ANTIDEPRESSANT” drug of some sort. Probably for only a year or two at the most. I'm fairly certain this was true for the shooters in Columbine which took place nearly 8 years ago exactly. Not sure if that means something or not but it just seems kind of weird.
And Two, you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands! I'm an American. I was born and raised in the home of the brave and land of the free. I'm also a patriot and I served my country on more than one occasion and in many ways and I've no doubt that I will called upon to do so again.
No, you're quite correct at this point, Davo. There was never any point to this thread. We all knew it would self-destruct because, frankly, it would appear the majority of us couldn't care about what each other thinks, which is a damn shame.
No one will change any one's mind, this existence is futile, so go end it.
You care more about your point and had to continue to make it in a thread that was talking more about the atrocity of the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
You were the main component in that thread that prompted me to state, very clearly, that another thread about gun control and other sidelined communication should take place in another thread and not in one dedicated to that event.
Simply put, you and your rhetoric is sorely lacking any sympathy. It's full of thinly veiled attempts to say that a system that you've shown outright ignorance about over and over - you can't even understand the simple structure of Federal and State law, let alone understand anything else outside of your own experiences - in a multitude of discussions.
Instead, you duck, shuck and jive behind evasive words and cry foul the moment somebody points you out to be exactly what you are.
You are a damn hypocrite. You take each and every discussion about something that's bigger than you and somehow personalize it to make yourself into the victim when it has absolutely nothing to do with you.
You've done absolutely nothing in concern to anything American other than tote a link to an American in your footer. You've become now a person that will lie to get your point across.
Get the facts straight... you got a week off after many warnings for personal attacks. You were not the only person that got a break from that thread alone. And unlike you... when I finally allowed myself to get angry, I at least apologized.
"Poor me... I got banned." You and a lot of other people couldn't follow a civil request, where I had the rules behind me. You think it was so unfair... be a man about it and approach the other supermods, the admin.
I don't have a soul in my pocket, so they could have overturned if I were completely wrong.
Last I checked, the Flashkit is not about one person. It's a community. And sadly, you seriously add nothing but circular arguments and never admit to anything.
And now, you can add liar to your list of accomplishments. Your non-apology has sealed what you are to me.
Welcome to my very short ignore list. You join Flashkid as the only person on it.
Never would expect to change anyone's mind, but was certainly (as always) interested in folks well thought out and sourced viewpoints while it was on subject. And if FlashLackey was genuine in his questions about "why" those outside the US would be concerned, then again something of value that arose if he learnt something new from my response.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViRGo_RK
Discussions aren't always merely about resolution, but also about learning, even if just a little each time.
I hate to be rude but I wish some of you guys would get over it already. Change in America comes from within, not from repeated lectures by "high brow" Europeans, and other westerners who think they have the world figured out.
:zzz:
In fact, I think you guys have given me reason to go out and get strapped up.
As soon as I get a chance I will buy a couple of handguns, a shotgun and an assault rifle, just because I can! I'll post some pics of my new arsenal as soon as I figure out how this stuff actually works. :thumbsup:
ps. If anyone wants to stop by for target practice let me know.
I wouldn't shoot him if I knew or even thought that he had a gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by tidenburg
And I'm sorry to say I'm quickly learning what I've secretly known all along, most humans are based on bull****ting?
In all honesty I don't believe one second that you care about those 30 people, I honestly don't Dave. I don't want to turn this into a pile-on or anything, but I feel you lack sincerity in your reasons for being concerned about our gun laws.
Yeah, I guess I just live a life where it's obvious I don't care much about others and it's all about my own selfish interests, huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by ViRGo_RK
And I guess I actually have no concerns about mates in the States? Damn, you found me out!
Don't bother replying, even more pointless than the other stuff.
Was just curious, with accusations flying about thicker than bullets on a campus at the moment, who's been lecturing anybody?Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionray
Oddly enough, I never said that. I mentioned specifically those 30 people, who you did not personally know.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
Coincidentally, I never said that either. I'm sure you care about those you know in the states, and that's good. But you're starting a nasty trend of using sarcasm to twist words I haven't even said yet.Quote:
And I guess I actually have no concerns about mates in the States? Damn, you found me out!
And have I said that you don't have the right to hold that viewpoint? Anywhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by Planet
Questioned opinions. Presented views and statistics. But have I stated anywhere that I was right and anybody else wrong? Seriously. Take out the crowd mentality (as seems to pervade these discussions), and take what has been said into a one to one context over a beer or two, and what is really the huge deal that suddenly has everyone running around defensively and accusations flying all over the pace.
And if you seriously have issues with anything I've tried to discuss here then definitely make sure you keep most of your reading in the near future to US only publications, 'cos my I'm certainly no scrag on a rock with my curiousity about the whole gun law thing with this most recent event.
Well, I would consider it a little less nasty than accusing someone of not caring of 30 innocent human beings who were shot in cold blood. Sorry, that's a lot uglier accusation from my point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViRGo_RK
Anyway, out of hear. Crowd mentality has switched on, and no good can ever come of that. Flashlackey, if you're genuinely interested in following up your questions about why those outside the US would care, hit me up on PM or email.
Cheers.
I'm glad you refused to address the fact that although what you mentioned was apparently less harsh, in your opinion, it still wasn't what I said. I don't mean to mimic gerbick here but at least I can understand now why it bothered him so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
you for starters. Is that so shocking?
I don't visit the other forums, but most of your posts in the CL are US related. You have some sort of weird obsession with America.
this whole discussion is just ugly. just ugly. i'm actually saddened by it...mostly because of davo :(
You guys have provided me with some laughs, let me tell you!!
A new footer for those new to Flashkit looking to fit into the culture, hope it helps. As someone from this thread said to me in a message, the "Flashkit pack" is out in force! Woof!!
And to summarise for those late on the scene, the decent into blood scenting pack:
-----
Dave: "I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting removing guns altogether. Even in Australia there are guns around. It's more about much tighter controls over ownership and models available."
Dave: "Why not consistent, clear and research based national legislation on gun ownership? Surely that would be a start for both sides?"
silverx2: "its because we as a people are allowed weapons that we were able to free ourselves from englands rule back in the revolutionary war. That right is the last thing that prevents the government from being in complete controll. If you get rid of the publics ability to arm and fight back, you can rule them with an iron fist."
Dave: "And you find it quite acceptable using a justification that was relevant centuries ago to justify "protection" to day over the democratic system that you have in the US?"
silverx2: "Myth No. 1: Guns cause crime. A careful review of 18 academic studies shows that there is no relationship between the number of guns and the amount of crime in the United States. International evidence tells a similar story."
Dave: "Does it?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
Looking at most of the countries above and around the US, I don't know if any of them would have as civil a society as the US. Looking at those of a similar environment, wouldn't Finland (with half as many deaths) be the first?
So it could be argued myth number one is actually not a myth, so where might that leave the other "myths"?
Nice rhetoric, perhaps not much else."
TallGuyLittleCar: "there is more crime than just murder."
silverx2: "according to nation master, OZ has the highest number of crime victims per capita.
there are 80 crimes per 1k people in the U.S.
there are 105 crimes per 1k people in New zealand
78% of people in the Us feel they are safe from being robbed
42% in NZ feel the same.
1.3% of NZ people get sexually assualted
.4% for the US"
-----
TallGuyLittleCar: "the united states is sort of large. One set of laws for that amount of area with that number people being unevenly spread in different areas and circumstances is just a bit nutty."
Dave: "So you don't have any national laws that everyone abides by?"
TallGuyLittleCar: "we have federal laws (national), but not everyone abides by them ;)"
-----
gerbick: "Do people get robbed in Australia?"
Dave: "Yep.
#11 United States: 1.38527 per 1,000 people
#15 Australia: 1.16048 per 1,000 people "
gerbick: "Do people die in Australia?"
Dave: "Yep.
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
I think I'd rather be robbed than killed just quietly."
----- cue start of decent -----
gerbick: "It's really sad that I'm starting to believe that some members are here only to point out what's wrong with the world and offer no sympathy in anything other than esoteric situations where their efforts end up being drops of hope in a desert of futility just to say they've done something."
EVPohovich: [i]"It's really sad that I see this as other non US members pointing to the US and trying to say "Look!!" ... All of you.....**** it.....turds......pointing a finger at us need to stand down.
Dave: "I don't see anyone making any suggestions they hate the US. I don't see anyone balking at discussing any issues in their own countries. All I did see (before the usual defensive posturing) was a discussion about an issue that was very relevant due to an unfortunate recent event in the US.
Actually gerbick, this time you can take credit: Until your post (closely followed by EVPohovich's) I thought this discussion about a very passionate and controversial issue was proceeding very civilly, despite people's differing and sometimes opposing viewpoints. Well done old chap!"
gerbick: "eh? you quote me then say this.
either back it up where I said that, or apologize.
Get a clue Davo. You are not a problem to me. You are not a factor even. You factor into my life that one time I had to ban you and a few others for not minding the rules."
ViRGo_RK: "Hate perhaps too strong a word, but with nearly every post you insinuate that the only issues reside this side of the Atlantic, and if you can't see your own bias than it's worse than I thought around here."
tidenburg: "How is this even relevant? The topic is gun control, not my country is better than yours. Guns could be removed from law obeying citizens then leaving them defenseless, however there are other methods of defending yourself and it would also make it harder for criminals to obtain guns, not all gun crime is committed using illegal weaponry.
While I don't think my country is perfect, I also don't think any is and a few people on here are talking like America is the ruler of the world."
gerbick: "To be fair, he's had a few Australia-specific posts about issues. However, I still want to know how my words were construed to fit into such a small box of "...hate the US..." when I had not said such a thing at all.
That's past insinuation. That's a lie. That's purposely changing what somebody had said. That's putting words in a person's mouth. That's libel since the internet is considered "media"."
Dave: "Tell you what, I'll provide an apology once I get one from you for banning me for something you then went and did the very next day to someone else. How's that?
My response after the initial sentence was not merely to your post, but also to another one (hence the paragraph break). Sorry it wasn't spelt out, and previously I have apologised to others for not making that clear (and indeed to you), but since there have been other times where you have not done so but instead have insinuated that I should be able to understand the context rather than you spell it out for me, well heck, I'll do the same this time. So go back and read all the posts and I'm sure you're intelligent enough to understand the context. I have no qualms about giving you credit for that."
gerbick (paraphrase): "Lier, lier pants on fire!!"
EVPohovich: "USA == TheWorldsScapeGoat;"
Planet: "lesli_felix, silverx2, EVPohovich and a few others in this thread can share my foxhole any day if a fight were to begin. TheOriginalFlashDavo, no offense, but I'm not sure what to say about your opinions, I respect them however you CLEARLY have no idea what it means to be an American."
Visionray: "I hate to be rude but I wish some of you guys would get over it already. Change in America comes from within, not from repeated lectures by "high brow" Europeans, and other westerners who think they have the world figured out."
ViRGo_RK: "In all honesty I don't believe one second that you care about those 30 people, I honestly don't Dave."
Continue decent into pack mentality.... woof, woof, woof!!
---------------
It's been a blast guys, really. We should do this more often. Ciao.
Arooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!
Group think, eh? So if more than one American disagrees with you, we're just an rabid mob of dogs out for your blood. Poor you, always the victim.
How about rule #4 - Learn to take it if you're going to dish it.
Actually, the idea of the FK "mob" came from an American FK member who PMed me. The groupthink phenomenon is a very well known aspect of organisations and/or groups of people that has some very recognisable traits. I'll leave it up to others if they care to review the link or do further research if they believe those traits are recognisable here.
But thanks for your thoughts on the matter.
Victim? According to the rants in this thread it's the poor US who are the "victims" of all this bashing, hatred, vitriol ...etc ...etc from all us bad non-US anti-Americans who dare to have a point of view. Oh woe is me!
I'll paraphrase Gerbick (since then it must be okay): Get a clue.
Your consistent need to always require the last word is relentlessly tiring...
By the way, your footer's a disgrace man. It's like saying.. "Hey, new members, we're all pricks, I'm not happy here, but I still don't have the balls to go elsewhere." Don't taint newcomers with your bitterness.
The majority of us here know that it is perfectly acceptable to criticize what ever you would like. But when it's day after day you're harping on the same old things Davo, whether you want to realize it or not, that's when it gets old.
Sarcasm still remains the weak man's defense, for the record.
That's mighty interesting, and I appreciate the lecture Professor Dave, but I think I'll pass on the research. I could care less who pm'd you what, though I'm sure you think for one reason or another that it is relevant. I speak for myself and realize there are Americans who don't agree with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
Americans aren't immune to taking criticism, it's just the constant whining from an elitist snob nosed 'academic' like yourself that makes it a little hard to swallow. I know you've done all this supposed research about the U.S., you certainly are very obsessed with it, but my guess is you could type every thing you truly know about America on the back of a microscopic postage stamp and still have room leftover for a shopping list.Quote:
Victim? According to the rants in this thread it's the poor US who are the "victims" of all this bashing, hatred, vitriol ...etc ...etc from all us bad non-US anti-Americans who dare to have a point of view. Oh woe is me!
I'll paraphrase Gerbick (since then it must be okay): Get a clue.
Oh well, at least you only charge what your free advice is worth.
how can a well armed militia overthrow the government when its a federal crime to even allude to killing the president?
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampy
you have a good point. Perhaps when it was written in the constitution it wasn't a federal crime to make such comments about killing the president, not sure.
I've never really bought into the idea that the reason we should have guns is to protect us from a tyrannical government. Of course it may have been a good idea in the past but as has been said, it doesn't really apply now, especially considering it's next to impossible to actually form a huge militia in the U.S. without the feds taking notice and dismantling your operation.
Personally, the reason I support the amendment is because of what I kind of said earlier, I don't feel rights should be taken away from people because a select few can't handle those rights.
As far as using guns for protection in your home, to me the idea sounds good in theory but difficult in practice. Unless you are keeping a loaded gun right beside your bed (and you better not if you have children), then I imagine it would be hard to react to an armed robbery of your house.
So personally, I don't see a great need for guns, and I probably wouldn't cry if they were all banned, but I also don't see the need to ban them either, as I don't see what good it would do. They should have been banned a long time ago to have any effect, it's just too late now.
exactly, look at what happenned at Waco. Were they not simply a well armed militia?
Well armed, but not well-organized. Montana Militiamen are well-armed and well-organized. And they've not been involved in a "Waco" incident.