Farewell - a new beginning for FK

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01-12-2002, 08:34 AM
David Michie

Quote:

Originally posted by Visionray
I take it you never took a course in advertising? Thats a nice idea you have, but only viable if we lived in a utopia where all big coorporations paid the bandwidth bills to huge portal sites just to contribute to the happiness and well being of a community.

The Casino ads are for another internet.com site, so they are not making any money out of them. They are just chewing bandwidth.

I would like to advertise SWiSH here, but ever since internet.com took over (over a year ago BTW) the rules have become very rigid -- basically you have to buy a standard banner through internet.com's banner network, you have to pay up front (like $10K minimum) and you have to pay $15 CPM or something. This is why you don't see ads on FK for erain, SWiSH, LiveMotion etc.

In the good old days I would email Mark and say: "Hey, we've got a new version out, and we're running a competition. Do you want to give away 100 copies on Flash Kit?" ... and it would be on the site 10 minutes later. Everybody wins this way -- FK had something interesting to write about in the Announcements section, visitors to FK had the chance to win some free software, and we got exposure for our new version.

FYI: The FK home page still gets much more traffic than the boards, and my Alexa toolbar tells me the FK homepage gets more traffic than http://www.internet.com

(I wonder how long it will be before they start deleting my posts?)

Cheers, David.
01-12-2002, 08:53 AM
aversion

that certainly is a lot of dough.... no wonder we don't see relevant advertising from people like swish.
01-12-2002, 08:58 AM
TheEnigma

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey
You know, here's a trick for you, if you wanna keep internet.com in check.

Start clicking on banners. Let the suits get comfortable with the click thrus. Then, use it to your advantage. If you like something I/we do, click. If you don't, then don't click. If you stop clicking, your going to see me freaking out, trying to figure out what I did wrong, and how I can make it good. If you want a quicker effect, start a thread about your issue and then slow down on the clicking.

If there's no click thrus now, and none when there's a problem, what's the difference?

Feel the force. It's all around you, hidden in adversity :} You will eventually have the big corporations by the nuggies :} It's true, the strength is in the numbers :}

OOOH!
The man has sense! :D
I agree with that - the biggest way to keep suit happy is to hit em in the back pocket ;)
01-12-2002, 09:37 AM
monkii

As an Australian, I do find it sad that one of the countries largest internet development sites has been taken over by overseas interests.. I guess the original owners have made some bucks out of it and fair enough too.. I don't really know you, but the good spirit you have brought the site and the boards will be missed greatly.. good luck to all of you..

As a fk member, I'm concerned that the quality of the site has been slipping... The home page looks absolutely horrible! - so many internet.com links.. (i don't even need to mention the casino ads) - it's a real joke..
the home page is absolutely the worst part of this site.. What about some real flash news.. some real sites worth checking... http://www.flashguru.co.uk is killing you here on a shoe string budget...
Like most people, I come here for the forums, tutes and source files, which are all fantastic. I'm hoping these sides of the site will never change.
anyways just some late night ranting..
cheers,
m
01-12-2002, 10:36 AM
]v[orpheus

Quote:

Originally posted by aversion
i agree with this, as i said before clicking on the banners is pretty damn easy and achieves a lot. If everyone who visited the forums clicked a banner once a day flashkit would probably be in a much better position.

all you have to do is click, wait for it to load then close. Not much to ask for the community really.

In Flash Kit's best interests, I'll start doing that even though I won't bother reading it. (I sure start doing that again with The Hunger Site) Although I think they should change some of the ads. That casino banner has nothing to do with web design.

Whoa! Just saw that banner on another of my open threads and it's huge! :eek:
[Edited by ]v[orpheus on 01-12-2002 at 09:38 AM]
01-12-2002, 10:40 AM
TheEnigma

Quote:

Originally posted by ]v[orpheus

Quote:

Originally posted by aversion
i agree with this, as i said before clicking on the banners is pretty damn easy and achieves a lot. If everyone who visited the forums clicked a banner once a day flashkit would probably be in a much better position.

all you have to do is click, wait for it to load then close. Not much to ask for the community really.

In Flash Kit's best interests, I'll start doing that even though I won't bother reading it. Althought I think they should change some of the ads. That casino banner has nothing to do with web design.

I tend to agree - people are more likely to click through banners that actually have something to do with the topic our key audience is here for!

Such as the HierMenu banner - I know I have clicked that once or twice from different machines!

But Casino's?
Seeing as most of our audience is <18 they are not gonna clck to something its ilegal for them to use eh :D
01-12-2002, 05:01 PM
jstarkey

Quote:

Originally posted by TheEnigma

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey

You know, here's a trick for you, if you wanna keep internet.com in check.

Start clicking on banners. Let the suits get comfortable with the click thrus. Then, use it to your advantage. If you like something I/we do, click. If you don't, then don't click. If you stop clicking, your going to see me freaking out, trying to figure out what I did wrong, and how I can make it good. If you want a quicker effect, start a thread about your issue and then slow down on the clicking.

If there's no click thrus now, and none when there's a problem, what's the difference?

Feel the force. It's all around you, hidden in adversity :} You will eventually have the big corporations by the nuggies :} It's true, the strength is in the numbers :}

OOOH!

The man has sense! :D

I agree with that - the biggest way to keep suit happy is to hit em in the back pocket ;)

To keep them happy and to keep you happy, don't forget that, people. If you are paying someone, in this case, with 10 seconds of your time each day, you are allowing them to eat. If you buy my Ramen Noodles, you are my livelyhood :} That's, once again, Business 101.
01-12-2002, 05:10 PM
jstarkey

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey

Quote:

Originally posted by aversion

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey

If there's no click thrus now, and none when there's a problem, what's the difference?

i agree with this, as i said before clicking on the banners is pretty damn easy and achieves a lot. If everyone who visited the forums clicked a banner once a day flashkit would probably be in a much better position.

all you have to do is click, wait for it to load then close. Not much to ask for the community really.

Aside from any change an advertiser is willing to pay for an impression, it's generally the only way we get any cash at all for anything we do.

Pumping out this much bandwidth is not cheap. So basically, it's a handout everytime anyone downloads anything, posts a message, listens to a loop, or anytime we post a new link, fla, loop, etc, for you to share with the world. Currently there is one other trickle of $$: linking to other sites that do pay for themselves. Flashkit has to become self-sufficient if you want it to be ALL about Flash. Yeah, internet.com as owners will always have their name and little plugs on the front page --that's good business-- but they won't be taking over the front page with links to other sites, they'll want to keep you here, because it's worth more.
01-12-2002, 05:12 PM
killabry

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey
If you buy my Ramen Noodles, you are my livelyhood :} That's, once again, Business 101.

I like you already :)
01-12-2002, 05:32 PM
jstarkey

Quote:

Originally posted by David Michie

I would like to advertise SWiSH here, but ever since internet.com took over (over a year ago BTW) the rules have become very rigid -- basically you have to buy a standard banner through internet.com's banner network, you have to pay up front (like $10K minimum) and you have to pay $15 CPM or something. This is why you don't see ads on FK for erain, SWiSH, LiveMotion etc.

I wasn't aware of fees. I deleted my "Chump change" comment, below, since I personally don't have anything to compare too anyway, and it was a bit strong worded in context. That's why I'm a lowly webmaster :} But I think everyone does need to keep in mind how big FK is. And if 200,000 viewers were clicking on banners to say thanks, it would most likely be worth your $$, right?

Quote:

In the good old days I would email Mark and say: "Hey, we've got a new version out, and we're running a competition. Do you want to give away 100 copies on Flash Kit?" ... and it would be on the site 10 minutes later. Everybody wins this way -- FK had something interesting to write about in the Announcements section, visitors to FK had the chance to win some free software, and we got exposure for our new version.

What stopped that?

Quote:

(I wonder how long it will be before they start deleting my posts?)

Hey, me too. :} I'm kinda going out on a limb. But I think it's a well known fact that an advertiser isn't going to pay, if they aren't getting something in return.

So, do we think that Flashkit is too big? Has it outgrown itself in terms of content? I'm sure a lot of people are clicking through a lot of unusable flas, loops, etc, before they find what they can use. This too is going to affect everyone. The bandwidth is now 3-4 times what was needed to find what you wanted. If we can get the price of running the site down, maybe we can get the price of advertising down?
01-12-2002, 05:36 PM
jstarkey

Quote:

Originally posted by killabry

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey

If you buy my Ramen Noodles, you are my livelyhood :} That's, once again, Business 101.

I like you already :)

Well sheeeuxxx :} Thanks :}
01-12-2002, 06:30 PM
gerbick

Quote:

Originally posted by monkii
As an Australian, I do find it sad that one of the countries largest internet development sites has been taken over by overseas interests..

no disrespect, but since when does the location of the staff of something that supposed to be universally appealing have to do with anything?

if it loses the universal appeal - which I don't think it will - then this American will be going elsewhere.
01-12-2002, 06:36 PM
David Michie

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey
I deleted my "Chump change" comment, below, since I personally don't have anything to compare too anyway, and it was a bit strong worded in context.

Damn, I missed that, I've been sleeping for the past 8 hours, can you send it to me :)

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey
And if 200,000 viewers were clicking on banners to say thanks, it would most likely be worth your $$, right?

We are quite willing to pay, and we have spents thousands with FlashKit before, but a little flexibility would be greatly appreciated. We can't make money on banners at $15 CPM. The break even point for us (and anyone else) is about $2 CPM.

So, internet.com could either be making money from a banner for a relevant product at $2 CPM, or burning bandwidth on Casino ads at $0 CPM. Its your choice.

Remember, about 20% of FlashKit members are actually SWiSH users. If you have any doubt, look at the number of posts on the SWiSH forums. We supply FK with hundreds of new members every week. We used to be a "partner" but now we have been relegated to "advertiser".

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey
What stopped that?

Internet.com. We used to have a "SWiSH" link in the blue strip at the top as well, but they pulled that. They also pulled a Christmas tree promotion we did with Electric Rain in mid December and replaced it with an Absolut Vodka Ad slap bang in the middle of the homepage.

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey
This too is going to affect everyone. The bandwidth is now 3-4 times what was needed to find what you wanted. If we can get the price of running the site down, maybe we can get the price of advertising down?

Removing the Casino Ads would be a good first step :)

Cheers, David.
01-12-2002, 08:37 PM
jstarkey

Quote:

Originally posted by David Michie

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey

I deleted my "Chump change" comment, below, since I personally don't have anything to compare too anyway, and it was a bit strong worded in context.

Damn, I missed that, I've been sleeping for the past 8 hours, can you send it to me :)

Keep this between you and I :}, but I said "any chump change that advertisers pay for impressions" (in comparison to clicks). I was trying to get the point across that, displaying the banner doesn't pay the bills, clicks do. But I think it could be misconstrued as targeting the advertisers as not paying enough, rather than expressing a comparison. <<< shaking in my shoes now >>>

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey

And if 200,000 viewers were clicking on banners to say thanks, it would most likely be worth your $$, right?

We are quite willing to pay, and we have spents thousands with FlashKit before, but a little flexibility would be greatly appreciated. We can't make money on banners at $15 CPM. The break even point for us (and anyone else) is about $2 CPM.

So, internet.com could either be making money from a banner for a relevant product at $2 CPM, or burning bandwidth on Casino ads at $0 CPM. Its your choice.

[/B][/QUOTE]
This is where, I'm sure, I'm advised to say "please be in touch with our sales dept at 1-800-555-1212".... as you know, I have nothing to do with the pricing, I'm just charged with keeping the cycle going, once it's up. I think that, as the front lines guy, I will have a bit of an influence on the ad price, but yeah, they will set the price based on the operating costs, and all I can do is lower those costs. Flashkit grew way too fast for the resources, is what I'm seeing, and there had to be a rushed attempt to generate the revenue and keep things working.

It might be a good idea to touch base with them again. There are a lot of wheels in motion at the moment.

Quote:

Remember, about 20% of FlashKit members are actually SWiSH users. If you have any doubt, look at the number of posts on the SWiSH forums. We supply FK with hundreds of new members every week. We used to be a "partner" but now we have been relegated to "advertiser".

I'm not aware of the numbers, but yeah I know there's an arterie. I'll look into this.

Quote:

Internet.com. We used to have a "SWiSH" link in the blue strip at the top as well, but they pulled that. They also pulled a Christmas tree promotion we did with Electric Rain in mid December and replaced it with an Absolut Vodka Ad slap bang in the middle of the homepage.

Absolute is known for going in wild directions, very successfully. Their campaigns are documented on the net in ad circles.

As we know, the Blue Strip is an expensive spot, due to it's position, on any website with 1 million page views a day. But once again, I don't know the circumstances.
Maybe you could contact me offlist and I could pass that on thru the channels?

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey

This too is going to affect everyone. The bandwidth is now 3-4 times what was needed to find what you wanted. If we can get the price of running the site down, maybe we can get the price of advertising down?

Removing the Casino Ads would be a good first step :)

[/QUOTE]
Yeah, ;\. Maybe there's a general concensus that this community is a risk-based community? Artists are well known for being spontaneous. I'll let Scott know that several people have expressed concern.
01-12-2002, 09:46 PM
David Michie

>> displaying the banner doesn't pay the bills, clicks do

I would love to buy advertising at Flash Kit on a pay-per-click
basis, but internet.com doesn't do PPC, only CPM.

>> It might be a good idea to touch base with them again.
>> There are a lot of wheels in motion at the moment.

I am in touch with internet.com advertising people and
I'm trying to figure something it out. Its not easy though.

>> I'm not aware of the (SWiSH) numbers, but yeah I know
>> there's an arterie. I'll look into this.

I don't think there's any definitive way you can say a FlashKit
member is a SWiSH user or a Flash user, many are both. What
I can tell you, is the SWiSH Help forum has over 100,000 posts
and we link directly to FlashKit from:
http://www.swishzone.com/support_frame.html

Why should we continue sending you members, and behaving like
a good "partner" when you treat us like 2nd rate advertisers?

>> Absolute is known for going in wild directions, very successfully.
>> Their campaigns are documented on the net in ad circles.

Perhaps, but the fact remains internet.com pulled an ad for
Flash-related products (placed there by Trav) and replaced
it with a vodka bottle ... a very profitable vodka bottle
I'm sure :)

The FlashKit home page is very valuable advertising space and
internet.com know that. These are Alexa rankings for some
internet.com sites:

http://www.flashkit.com 2,448
http://www.internet.com 7,627
http://www.thecounter.com 8,701
http://www.webreference.com 8,817
http://www.internetnews.com 8,991
http://www.webdeveloper.com 26,476
http://board.flashkit.com 29,407
http://www.wdvl.com 39,395
http://www.gif.com 45,253
http://www.javascript.com 56,832
http://www.linuxcentral.com 102,550
http://jobs.internet.com 125,829

...and our old favourite:
http://www.internetcasinolist.com 172,752

So, you can see why internet.com uses the FK homepage as a
dumping ground for high-paying advertisers.

>> RE: Casino Ads

Mate, if you reckon people are clicking on those Casino ads you
are kidding yourself.

Cheers, David.

P.S. I don't really want take this "offlist" because I think its
important these things are discussed openly. I have nothing
to hide!
01-12-2002, 10:08 PM
monkii

Quote:

Originally posted by gerbick

Quote:

Originally posted by monkii
As an Australian, I do find it sad that one of the countries largest internet development sites has been taken over by overseas interests..

no disrespect, but since when does the location of the staff of something that supposed to be universally appealing have to do with anything?

Gerbick, you are right - FK is a global site and where the staff are based really doesn't matter. I'm just being a little bit patriotic. There are few Australian run sites that have a global presence (and there is one less now).
m
01-12-2002, 10:09 PM
monkii

Quote:

Originally posted by gerbick

Quote:

Originally posted by monkii
As an Australian, I do find it sad that one of the countries largest internet development sites has been taken over by overseas interests..

no disrespect, but since when does the location of the staff of something that supposed to be universally appealing have to do with anything?

Gerbick, you are right - FK is a global site and where the staff are based really doesn't matter. I'm just being a little bit patriotic. There are very few Australian run sites that have a global presence (and there is one less now).
m
01-12-2002, 10:44 PM
jstarkey

Quote:

Originally posted by ]v[orpheus

In Flash Kit's best interests, I'll start doing that even though I won't bother reading it. (I sure start doing that again with The Hunger Site) Although I think they should change some of the ads. That casino banner has nothing to do with web design.

Whoa, this has missed it's target.

What I'm trying to get across here, and I probably could have said it much more smoothly is:

The banners at the top of the page represent an advertiser who is paying the bills in exchange for an attempt to pitch their product. You clicking on them and closing the window immediately, isn't something that's doing anyone any good. It also borders on illegal for Flashkit, which isn't going to get us anywhere, obvoiusly.

The advertiser is a part of the scheme. And an essential part of the scheme -- they help determine flashkit's longevity.

I think I assumed too much when I made the statement about clicking for Flashkit. I apologize.
01-12-2002, 11:11 PM
David Michie

Quote:

Originally posted by jstarkey
The banners at the top of the page represent an advertiser who is paying the bills in exchange for an attempt to pitch their product.

No, the banners almost exclusively represent other internet.com web sites. They are not paying any bills.

Cheers, David.
01-12-2002, 11:12 PM
jstarkey

Quote:

Originally posted by David Michie
>> displaying the banner doesn't pay the bills, clicks do

I would love to buy advertising at Flash Kit on a pay-per-click

basis, but internet.com doesn't do PPC, only CPM.

Yep and that is a good example of why this lad is going to step back. I'm not the person who know's the scheme, at the moment. I started this thing about clicking on the banners because, it's only going to help flashkit if the members give the advertisers a little acknowledgement for paying the bills. Something I think you understand fully.

Quote:

Why should we continue sending you members, and behaving like

a good "partner" when you treat us like 2nd rate advertisers?

The problem here is, I can't answer that. I don't even know that to be the case. So, I can't really do anything at this point but step back, once again. You're already in touch with the people who can help.

Quote:

These are Alexa rankings for some
internet.com sites:

Thanks for that info. I stopped in here on off time to check things out and maybe socialize a bit, but kinda got caught up :} I'll check this stuff out on Monday. It's been a pretty packed week.

Quote:

Mate, if you reckon people are clicking on those Casino ads you
are kidding yourself.

Yeah, but it's not my call. I'm sure you understand.

Quote:

P.S. I don't really want take this "offlist" because I think its

important these things are discussed openly. I have nothing

to hide!

That's fine. I'm sure internet.com welcomes your feedback. My offer to send it up to those above me is an attempt to lend a hand, since I'm not the one who can help. I honestly wish I could.

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