Dashiell Ponce de Leon sentenced to 4 years in prison, $1,000,000 fine.

Im not for people getting away with things.. Im for the correct type of reform and things that will make "minor" offenders better members of society when they get out.

SO to me...sending someone away for 4 years for this type of crime is a joke...and a real embarassment to our judicial system. If society is "SOOOOO" hurt by what he did..you'd think they would focus their efforts on a way to re-gain some of the lost revenue, in a way that is benifical to the "offended" party..and a hinderence to the offender.

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Originally Posted by admedia

I am limited to some extent by my budget. Do I want to upgrade to Macromedia 8? Adobe CS2?

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That is why you get a job that upgrades it for you...I do have Academic versions of Flash MX and Photoshop 7 on my home computer but my laptop that my work gave me has Flash 8 Pro and Photoshop 7 and anything else I ask for....isn't it great. Warez is a huge problem in this world and unfortunately I think it's hear to stay.

With the prices of software at an OUTRAGEOUS price...warez/pricay will ALWAYS be around.

Instead of trying to make it rich on quantity and a good product..they try to just sell a FEW at top dollar to make it big! (they need to slang software like drug dealers...cheap/bulk/quantity!!)

Don't get me wrong. I am not complaining about the price of software. The prices are determined by the market and don't seem that unreasonable to me. I mean $399. to upgrade to Studio 8? I don't know about you but that is a fraction of the value of a decent site.

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Originally Posted by whispers

With the prices of software at an OUTRAGEOUS price...warez/pricay will ALWAYS be around.

Instead of trying to make it rich on quantity and a good product..they try to just sell a FEW at top dollar to make it big! (they need to slang software like drug dealers...cheap/bulk/quantity!!)

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Yup... for every product there is, there's someone who will steal it. And for everyone who will steal, there's a nice cold jail cell waiting. I wouldn't have it any other way. I'll say it again... he got exactly what he deserved.

Something you seem to be forgetting here is that, in the US, people may charge whatever price they wish for their time and products. They sunk the time and money into planning it, building it, marketing it, and supporting it... and they have an absolute right to charge as much as they see fit. Neither you nor anyone else is in any position to say what the price should or sholdn't be. If one doesn't want to pay the price, one doesn't get to have the goods... that's simply the way it is. Don't like the price... build your own or get a job so you can buy it.

I would love to have a nice, new Maserati, but it's just not going to happen. Pehaps if I steal one you'll be my advocate since it's really the fault of the manufacturer for keeping the price high. Better yet, I'll steal a few Chevrolets and sell them to raise the money to buy the Maserati. Given your position, I shouldn't do any time for that.

The funny thing about your price comment is that if people weren't stealing software left and right, the price would be lower. Retailers have to factor loss into their pricing, and Flashlevel is a perfect example as to why.

and with what companies what you to know and have on yoru resume...where the list stop? I have yet to see one jop posting that only said FLASH (and you still have to have your initial purchase...to even upgrade from)...so you need Photoshop & Illustrator, Quark, Dreamweaver...etc..etc..

I totally think people should be compensated for their work, without a doubt. but I think in the long run, the end user price should be affordable. In my life..it doesnt matter.. I have access to anything and everything I could possibly want..and them some...to the latest when it hits the shelves..to Apple OS software that I cant even use...but that is afforded to me by my type of company...without..it would be hard to to constaly stay afloat with the newest, and keep a decent resume. Image those that are younger than us.....

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Originally Posted by whispers

Im not for people getting away with things.. Im for the correct type of reform and things that will make "minor" offenders better members of society when they get out.

SO to me...sending someone away for 4 years for this type of crime is a joke...and a real embarassment to our judicial system. If society is "SOOOOO" hurt by what he did..you'd think they would focus their efforts on a way to re-gain some of the lost revenue, in a way that is benifical to the "offended" party..and a hinderence to the offender.

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The problem is that it's not just a few, and our society is damaged tremedously by those who steal. Do you have any idea how much money gets dumped into loss prevention and insurance? Society as a whole ends up paying the price for the theft... literally. An extra 8-10 percent on everything we buy, so the retailers can make up for the loss caused by theiving scumbags. Each and every honest citizen should take it personally, as in the end, it's us who pay.

As for all of this nonsense about alternatives to jail time... we pay anyway, regardless of how we handle it. For that reason, I'm perfectly happy paying to keep someone in jail to let them endure some misery for damaging the quality of my life. Selfish to say that? You bet... but not nearly as selfish as the bastard who steals from all of our pockets. That 8-10 percent might have been a well deserved vacation, or a nicer car, or a little more in my nest egg so I don't have to spend the rest of my life working. Those who make my life harder by stealing can go straight to hell as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally Posted by JayCharles

Yup... for every product there is, there's someone who will steal it.

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Not to promote piracy or anything but if I developed a program, i'd be flattered if someone pirated it. It has to be more work to crack it than get a job and buy it. If someone wanted something I made that bad, that would be cool. With a company like Macromedia or Microsoft I guess it's different though.

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Originally Posted by JayCharles

The funny thing about your price comment is that if people weren't stealing software left and right, the price would be lower. Retailers have to factor loss into their pricing,

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I don't see it as too much of a loss for the company as most people that steal it don't have the money to buy it and would just do without if they didn't steal...that probably isn't the case for everyone but most people. I know that in high school piracy was really high at my school...why, because Taco Bell isn't gonna give you enough money to buy Windows and Flash...im just glad i've always had good jobs.

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Originally Posted by whispers

and with what companies what you to know and have on yoru resume...where the list stop? I have yet to see one jop posting that only said FLASH (and you still have to have your initial purchase...to even upgrade from)...so you need Photoshop & Illustrator, Quark, Dreamweaver...etc..etc..

I totally think people should be compensated for their work, without a doubt. but I think in the long run, the end user price should be affordable. In my life..it doesnt matter.. I have access to anything and everything I could possibly want..and them some...to the latest when it hits the shelves..to Apple OS software that I cant even use...but that is afforded to me by my type of company...without..it would be hard to to constaly stay afloat with the newest, and keep a decent resume. Image those that are younger than us.....

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You're missing the point. Maybe if I put in in caps it will be clearer...

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU OR I THINK. IF SOMEONE BUILDS SOMETHING, THEY CAN SELL IT AT WHATEVER PRICE THEY WANT TO.

If that means some people can't afford it, that just tough for them. Welcome to the reality of life. Life is hard, life is expensive, and sometimes life just doesn't seem fair. That's the way it goes, friend.

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Originally Posted by JayCharles

Yup... for every product there is, there's someone who will steal it. And for everyone who will steal, there's a nice cold jail cell waiting. I wouldn't have it any other way. I'll say it again... he got exactly what he deserved.

Something you seem to be forgetting here is that, in the US, people may charge whatever price they wish for their time and products. They sunk the time and money into planning it, building it, marketing it, and supporting it... and they have an absolute right to charge as much as they see fit. Neither you nor anyone else is in any position to say what the price should or sholdn't be. If one doesn't want to pay the price, one doesn't get to have the goods... that's simply the way it is. Don't like the price... build your own or get a job so you can buy it.

I would love to have a nice, new Maserati, but it's just not going to happen. Pehaps if I steal one you'll be my advocate since it's really the fault of the manufacturer for keeping the price high. Better yet, I'll steal a few Chevrolets and sell them to raise the money to buy the Maserati. Given your position, I shouldn't do any time for that.

The funny thing about your price comment is that if people weren't stealing software left and right, the price would be lower. Retailers have to factor loss into their pricing, and Flashlevel is a perfect example as to why.

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chances are..for your car theft..you probably wouldnt even go to jail...much less get a 1 million dollar fine & 4 years fo jail....and who said he shouldnt be punished? (stay on track...you were corrected last time for the same mistake)..but again..its insane to put a guy who did an "electronic" crime..not a physical one... in the same place as murderers & rapists.

Retailers mark-up more than their share...and then some.

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Originally Posted by JayCharles

You're missing the point. Maybe if I put in in caps it will be clearer...

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU OR I THINK. IF SOMEONE BUILDS SOMETHING, THEY CAN SELL IT AT WHATEVER PRICE THEY WANT TO.

If that means some people can't afford it, that just tough for them. Welcome to the reality of life. Life is hard, life is expensive, and sometimes life just doesn't seem fair. That's the way it goes, friend.

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first....I missed no point of yours...I started typing BEFORE you had posted..in reply to admedia's post...

I never said anyone couldnt sell their own software at whatever price they like... so why are you repeating yourslef like someone is arguing with you?

however if they want to complain why their software is priated...#1 reason = PRICE.

Yeah life is unfair..however these people probably wouldnt be purchasing the software anyways. So take it how you like.

Hell "I" personally even pay for Trillian...and work for a software company...so all the latest and greatest I cna test when I feel like it...I walk in back..open up a brand new box and install it.
and I really doubt any software company wants the attitude of "If our target audience cant afford our software..then tough..too bad"..talk about hurting a company.

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Originally Posted by jasonsplace

Not to promote piracy or anything but if I developed a program, i'd be flattered if someone pirated it. It has to be more work to crack it than get a job and buy it. If someone wanted something I made that bad, that would be cool. With a company like Macromedia or Microsoft I guess it's different though.

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Ahh... the words of someone destined to go out of business, or never get started to begin with. If you don't see value in your work, don't expect anyone else to.

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I don't see it as too much of a loss for the company as most people that steal it don't have the money to buy it and would just do without if they didn't steal...that probably isn't the case for everyone but most people. I know that in high school piracy was really high at my school...why, because Taco Bell isn't gonna give you enough money to buy Windows and Flash...im just glad i've always had good jobs.

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That's a sad position to take. Perhaps you don't see the loss, but I'm quite sure you'd have a different position if you were the one suffering the loss. the problem here is that since the software isn't really a tangible product, some people seem to think that it's not the same as stealing a car, or a loaf of bread. Truth be told... it's exactly the same.

Beyond that, you'd be surpised how many people will steal something they could otherwise afford when given the opportunity. It's one of those sad realities about some people.

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Originally Posted by JayCharles

That's a sad position to take. Perhaps you don't see the loss, but I'm quite sure you'd have a different position if you were the one suffering the loss.

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Heck yeah I would...if I was in Bill Gates shoes, i'd have a way different position...probably a nice big office with a projector and eveything I want. I see the quality in my work and want people to pay for it but if they aren't going to, they might as well take it and better their skills so that maybe someday they will have a job that will allow them to purchase it.

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Originally Posted by whispers

chances are..for your car theft..you probably wouldnt even go to jail...much less get a 1 million dollar fine & 4 years fo jail....and who said he shouldnt be punished? (stay on track...you were corrected last time for the same mistake)..but again..its insane to put a guy who did an "electronic" crime..not a physical one... in the same place as murderers & rapists.

Retailers mark-up more than their share...and then some.

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I'm not sure why you think it insane... that's what we do with people who prove they can't conform to the rules we have adopted for our society... we remove them from the society. It's been that way for a long time, and I suspect it will continue that way long after we're both dead.

And yes... retailers mark-up as much as the market will bear. That's how you turn a profit for your shareholders, which you know (if you understand rudimentary economics) is the ONLY goal of any public company. Not only is that the only goal, but the company is legally bound to make it so.

Sorry, I didn't realize that was in response to me. :)

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Originally Posted by whispers

and with what companies what you to know and have on yoru resume...where the list stop? I have yet to see one jop posting that only said FLASH (and you still have to have your initial purchase...to even upgrade from)...so you need Photoshop & Illustrator, Quark, Dreamweaver...etc..etc..

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That's the price for Macromedia Studio 8, it includes Flash, DreawmWeaver and Fireworks (and a couple other goodies ;)). You can easily get a pro-level site done with those tools. If you want to do print and Photoshop and all of that, then the money you make from those jobs should justify the capital outlay for those tools.

Yes it's the upgrade... I have already paid my Full Version price... I have too many years and too many dollars invested in my professional level software to appreciate some other designer making money from stealing it and making it available to any highschool kid with a twenty dollar bill in their paypal account to download.

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Originally Posted by jasonsplace

Heck yeah I would...if I was in Bill Gates shoes, i'd have a way different position...probably a nice big office with a projector and eveything I want. I see the quality in my work and want people to pay for it but if they aren't going to, they might as well take it and better their skills so that maybe someday they will have a job that will allow them to purchase it.

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Oookaaayy....

So what you're saying is that if the market won't bear your asking price, then your product should just be devalued down to nothing in hopes that someday it will have value?

Perhaps that's why you're not in Bill Gates' shoes.

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Originally Posted by whispers

and I really doubt any software company wants the attitude of "If our target audience cant afford our software..then tough..too bad"..talk about hurting a company.

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But their target market IS those who can afford the prices they dictate. If they felt differently they'd have a lower selling price.

I would expect any business (particularly ones I invest in), to always take that position. It capitalist america supposed to be a charity of some sort? At what point did we decide that the corporate world is supposed to operate on the principle of fairness to all?

... or maybe I just don't understand your point

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Originally Posted by JayCharles

So what you're saying is that if the market won't bear your asking price, then your product should just be devalued down to nothing in hopes that someday it will have value?

Perhaps that's why you're not in Bill Gates' shoes.

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I'm not in Bill Gates shoes because I am a punk 21 year old. I don't think that software companies necessarily need to drop their prices a lot but at least make them affordable...especially academic pricing. That software can only be used for educational purposes....you can't make any money with it yet you still pay hundreds of dollars for it. The companies could make a lot more money if they'd sell academic software for cheaper as you have to realize most piracy isn't coming from corporations but students who can't afford it.

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Originally Posted by jasonsplace

I'm not in Bill Gates shoes because I am a punk 21 year old. I don't think that software companies necessarily need to drop their prices a lot but at least make them affordable...especially academic pricing. That software can only be used for educational purposes....you can't make any money with it yet you still pay hundreds of dollars for it. The companies could make a lot more money if they'd sell academic software for cheaper as you have to realize most piracy isn't coming from corporations but students who can't afford it.

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Okay... you lost me here. At what point did I say anything about corporate piracy? While I don't claim to have any knowlege about the statistics of piracy, I would imagine that students only make up a small percentage.

As for academic licenses for the software, sure, they still cost money, and you can't use them for commercial endeavours, but the product is providing you with what you need for the training to earn a good living. I would say the value there is even greater than the commercial application. What price would you put on real world, marketable skills?

I think the problem here is that you have the idea that the manufacturers of the software are supposed to have a mission other than turning every possible dollar in as short a term as possible. While some of the engineers, designers, and developers do think beyond the profit, the corporate management (you know... the guys that dictate the price) does not... and that's how it's supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by JayCharles

Okay... you lost me here. At what point did I say anything about corporate piracy? While I don't claim to have any knowlege about the statistics of piracy, I would imagine that students only make up a small percentage.

As for academic licenses for the software, sure, they still cost money, and you can't use them for commercial endeavours, but the product is providing you with what you need for the training to earn a good living. I would say the value there is even greater than the commercial application. What price would you put on real world, marketable skills?

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You never mentioned corporate piracy but really there are 2 types of people that use software at least like Flash....those who are learning it and those who make money off of it. Those who make money (except a few freelancers) don't usually pirate the software leaving you with those learning it...I took a Flash class in college and the teacher told us to buy Flash MX...I already had Flash 5 so I used it for a while but then decided to upgrade. They had like 5 copies on the shelf and the person in the bookstore said they hadn't sold that program in a very long time. Now, all of the other students in the class had Flash but they didn't buy the academic version...i'm guessing that they didn't run to CompUSA and by the Full version either...they had there room mate download it for them or they did it themself. It's sad but true that most students don't just have a couple hundred extra dollars laying around and so they cut corners where they can...Whether it's for a good skill or not...it's just not reasonable.