The charges agaisnt AS3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boombanguk

I program with OOP all the time with AS2, I love being able to use classes etc and I understand all that to a certain degree, but I also love being able to do really simple things simply! AS3/Flash 9 just seems to make hard work of very basic tasks, and is very counter intuitive to a designer/developer.

---

I guess this is where we disagree, in my opinion AS3 is better in every way.
It is not harder -- it is logical, structured and organized. Instead of memorizing
weird commands like createEmptyMovieClip ( "x", getNextHighestDepth () ) you
create a new movie clip with x = new MovieClip (), just like with every other class.

Coding in AS3 doesn't mean you can't write dirty code, or make things fast. You can write it all in one class if you want or reference root all over the place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boombanguk

The whole IK F10, creating code for you I'm not sure about to be honest, especially if the code that is created is super complex and I can't make head or tail of it.

---

Nono, you dont understand. You dont see ANY code at all, Flash of course creates code when you publish swf but in the IDE you just drag-move things around and set its properties in some panel. Its same way you draw circle or rectangle in Flash IDE, give it color and position, all this can be done with code too but Flash does it for you.

I was trying to re-iterate Sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crap. If barrier to entry prevents the bottom 20% from being published, more crap than non-crap will be removed. I don't think that those who prefer as3 are inherently smarter than those who prefer as2. I do think that those who make a big deal about how 'difficult' it is to learn and use as3 are making a mountain out of a molehill. If I were more familiar with the way designers like to use the interface, I'd be tempted to create some 'training wheels' wizard components to do simple button tasks and the like that keep being brought up.

Would you let the average myspace user influence the direction of the next Firefox release?

"let me ask you, since the release of AS3, has the quality of flash work about the web diminished or heightened?"

A really good point, and I think it ties in with a lot of other designer / developer comments here.
Pre-as3 designers could dive in and write some code. Anyone who's worked in any sort of commercial job with Flash will tell you that they've lost x number of hours with a project where the designer has gone in there and added some timeline / mc code or a clashing instance name or something obscure that you weren't expecting just to trip you up ( Or help, that's for the designers out there :) ).

With as3, to quote an old boss, the power has swung back to the coders again. The vast majority of designers, even the one's who can code some as1/2, are just staying the hell away from it now.
Partly it's 'cause as3 is a programming language, not a scripting language where you can still use setProperty. Partly 'cause a lot of coders are milking the fact that it's more complicated ( There's a lot of empire building going on. It keeps our wages nice and high, 'cause the power has swung back to us apparently ).

It means that "designers who can code a bit" are no longer having to code a bit. Designers can do what they do best, and because in a lot of cases they're paying big bucks for a coder ( Much bigger than before ), they're wanting their money's worth. Sites aren't just sites any more, they're PV3D powered sites.
When designing something that you're going to have to code yourself you're a bit more conservative. Now designers don't have that hanging over them, they can push the boat out a lot more than before.
Which means smaller design agencies are spending the money on outsourcing the code which in turn means it's not just the large agencies making quality work. The playing field is leveling out a lot and therefore the quality is rising ( Conversely, it means that agencies can't get full time coders for love nor money. As a coder if you have PV3D on your cv you can just quote silly money ).

It would be sweet if you could still drop a stop() on a timeline animation in as3 though ;)

Squize.

I think AS3 has made things harder that used to be easier. They've done a good job of adding lots of extra capabilities that will allow better games to be made. AS3 definitely needs fixing though. Things are stupid and unnecessarily complicated. On the flip side, I do like the OOP structure, but it needs work.

The argument here seems to be 'what you should have to do' versus 'what you can do'

The point Moock was making is that there was a time where you drew a graphic, turned it into a symbol called a "button" and then you put simple script on it like:

on(release){
gotoAndPlay(10);
}

... and this was simple and very friendly for people new to programming to learn and use.

With AS3, you can't do that. You have to learn core programming concepts, figure out what classes to import, know about functions, etc, etc.... It's not newbie friendly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ray Beez

The point Moock was making is that there was a time where you drew a graphic, turned it into a symbol called a "button" and then you put simple script on it like:

on(release){
gotoAndPlay(10);
}

... and this was simple and very friendly for people new to programming to learn and use.

With AS3, you can't do that. You have to learn core programming concepts, figure out what classes to import, know about functions, etc, etc.... It's not newbie friendly.

---

Adding this code will allow you to do things the easy way, like you did them back in AS2.

Code:

---

//This code goes in your class!
public function set onClick(funk:Function):void
{
//You can change the mouse event to whatever you want.
    addEventListener(MouseEvent.CLICK, funk);
}

//This code goes on the main timeline or whatever

clip.onClick = function():void
{
    trace('bingo');
}

---

This code is still relatively-pathed. If you tell it to move the x, it will move the clip you set it for, not the stage. If this were AS2, it would move the stage. If you want to edit the stage, you have to add stage.action()

Well, after reading this thread, I think I'm going to start fooling around in AS3 until I have a good grasp on it. If the bar really has been raised, the only thing one can do is step up.

I still feel that AS3 might be too much for online games. Some people can use it to it's full potential and make very complex and interesting games, but the simple truth is that most successful online games are painfully simple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boombanguk

You seem to think all us "designers" are thick haha......and we need "special" help for us to program?........well put it this way, we were doing fine before AS3/FP9 came along!...and it was US that got Flash to where it is today, not all the non-Flash developers who were off doing something else :)

---

nope, just greedy and lazy.

I started in flash 4 just creating tweens and using setProperty, getProperty style coding, throughout all versions of flash I still animate, infact the tools have gotten better (imo). I have learned to adapt to the code changes. I can still pump out prototypes without OOP in AS3. Its still very possible to code all on the timeline, you don't actually every need to write a line in an external class.

I've never had a problem with the IDE in any version, I still code in it as well. For large scale projects i use FlashDevelop (and only recently, 3-4 months ago I started using it).

you may very well be combining design and code together, but when you start to type in that code window, you are programming. If you want click and drag behaviors, get a time machine and go back to 1997.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wattz

Well, after reading this thread, I think I'm going to start fooling around in AS3 until I have a good grasp on it. If the bar really has been raised, the only thing one can do is step up.

---

that is exactly right. Times have changed, either fall behind or step up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Squize

It means that "designers who can code a bit" are no longer having to code a bit. Designers can do what they do best, and because in a lot of cases they're paying big bucks for a coder ( Much bigger than before ), they're wanting their money's worth. Sites aren't just sites any more, they're PV3D powered sites.
When designing something that you're going to have to code yourself you're a bit more conservative. Now designers don't have that hanging over them, they can push the boat out a lot more than before.
Which means smaller design agencies are spending the money on outsourcing the code which in turn means it's not just the large agencies making quality work. The playing field is leveling out a lot and therefore the quality is rising ( Conversely, it means that agencies can't get full time coders for love nor money. As a coder if you have PV3D on your cv you can just quote silly money ).

---

soooooo true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ray Beez

With AS3, you can't do that. You have to learn core programming concepts, figure out what classes to import, know about functions, etc, etc.... It's not newbie friendly.

---

there is no need to import flash classes when on the timeline. There is a big fat F1 button on your keyboard, I still use it to this day, its the best!

On a related note:

http://www.gskinner.com/blog/archive...ript_stal.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr_malee

nope, just greedy and lazy.

---

greedy? so I'm greedy for wanting things to be simple? This discussion is in the GAMES section of this site.....you havn't answered a simple question, where are all the games using the "extra" abilities of AS3/F9 ? yes maybe some websites now have some pointless new coded animation effects, yay for them....but I don't see many games using all the great new physics engines that are out there, so I'm not really seeing what the point is for most games using AS3/FP9. And not many ppl are going to be spending 9 months developing a Flash game in AS3/FP9..so again what's the point of it from a game developers point of view?? It was said that most Flash games are crap cos they are using AS2/F8...that's crazy....it has nothing to do with that.....AS3/F9 has been around what? 2 years now? and even with all these super smart new non-Flash developers arriving on the scene hardly anyone has used it to create new Flash games, so these people are greedy and lazy too? People use AS2/F8 to create the bulk of games because its a nice language to use for that, not because they are too lazy/greedy to step up to AS3.

And taking web development into account, if I want to create any kind of "useful" website, i.e something with a CMS, database, perhaps a social network kinda of thing.....I stay as far away from Flash as possible, apart from Flash content not being indexed via google, you still have to use html/php/mysql to get that kind of thing done, so again what's the real use of AS3/FP9?

In an ideal world, the new Flash player will just be like AS2/FP8 was, but with a lot more power.

Flash is all about combining cool visual effects with simple coding, that is its strength, with AS3/FP9 it became. cool visual effects but with complex coding, and that's not what it should be about.

greedy for wanting things done for you and lazy for not doing them.

I want removeMovieClip
I want loadMovie
I want unloadMovie
I want getURL
I want onRelease

I dont want to create removeMovieClip myself
I dont want to create loadMovie myself
I dont want to create unloadMovie myself
I dont want to create getURL myself
I dont want to create onRelease myself

where are all the games using the "extra" abilities of AS3/F9 ?

I don't know every single game developed using these 3rd party API's, and there's no way you or anyone else (without decompiling) can tell me if its AS2 or AS3. All my games (past 5) have been AS3, developed in roughly 4 weeks, no physics engine no 3d engine, it does not take 9 months to develop a game in AS3. Maybe if you develop on/off sure, but that kind of time is crazy for a flash game. Why did I choose AS3? for speed execution of my code. To say that AS3 is a bad choice for game development is a very very weak argument.

This is the greatest thread of all time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UnknownGuy

On a related note:

http://www.gskinner.com/blog/archive...ript_stal.html

---

It could be both good and bad news for actionscript. It surely means Adobe will make some changes now in its plans.

Wow. This is quite a charged thread. What is appearing to me is the 2 schools of thought between core coding and the ability to leverage quick and dirty scripts... I think there are relevant points on both sides. I even find myself bouncing back and fourth between projects and the different versions and use what suits the scope. Generally, I have found most of my web stuff I just do AS2. I rarely do any of the art and most of the solutions are so simple that I am just more familiar out of repetative use of AS2, plus I have a huge library of custom classes that I have built over the years. Now, as I get more AS3 projects under my belt and a code base built up, this will probably change.

Any time I have something that is more of an application or uses XML, then I steer towards AS3.

I agree with everyone on the IDE. I think Adobe needs to get off their high horse and start listening to us, the community who uses their tools and keeps them in business. However I have found that to be effective and get work done in a timely manner, I have to use:

FlashDevelop
Actual Search and Replace
ExamDiff Pro
WinDiff

Now, the bottom 3 are nice as external tools as I use them for other languages, but before I started using FlashDevelop, I used SEPY and it had a nice Search and Replace feature. This should be mandatory for any IDE.

Then there is Adobe's capitalist mentality. Although I have never used FLEX, why in the world did they produce it as a separate IDE? Couldn't they have just made it part of the Flash / Actionscript experience? For example, MS Visual Studio is an IDE that I can use to program applications in a variety of languages, manage my database connections and build out DBs accordingly, yadda-yadda-yadda... and never have to open another program. In my opinion (granted again I've not used Flex, only read about it), Flex and flash should be wrapped into one IDE rather than force us to purchase separate programs and prying our hard earned cash from our tired and overworked hands from excessive mouse clicks from managing multiple IDEs at once so they can pay the mortgage on that new monstrosity of a huge building that they just built in SF. [Breathe!]

Well, that's my rant anyway...

Flex is essentially Eclipse which is java based. Integrating that with Flash as it is would be stupidly impossible. All they need to do to Flash is try and emulate the editor and autocompleting from Flex in my opinion.

Flash and Flex being seperate is fine as they are used mainly to create completely different styles of applications.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gohloum

FlashDevelop
Actual Search and Replace
ExamDiff Pro
WinDiff

Now, the bottom 3 are nice as external tools as I use them for other languages, but before I started using FlashDevelop, I used SEPY and it had a nice Search and Replace feature. This should be mandatory for any IDE.

Then there is Adobe's capitalist mentality. Although I have never used FLEX, why in the world did they produce it as a separate IDE? Couldn't they have just made it part of the Flash / Actionscript experience? For example, MS Visual Studio is an IDE that I can use to program applications in a variety of languages, manage my database connections and build out DBs accordingly, yadda-yadda-yadda... and never have to open another program. In my opinion (granted again I've not used Flex, only read about it), Flex and flash should be wrapped into one IDE rather than force us to purchase separate programs and prying our hard earned cash from our tired and overworked hands from excessive mouse clicks from managing multiple IDEs at once so they can pay the mortgage on that new monstrosity of a huge building that they just built in SF. [Breathe!]

Well, that's my rant anyway...

---

Flex is really good. You can get like SVN plugins and stuff like that for it and handle most of the tasks inside Flex.
Only thing I don't like about it is the code completion that isn't as aggressive as in Flashdevelop where you can just type any characters from the var name and get the correct one.

Agreed Flex code completion leave something to be desired. While this is a poor excuse for what FlashDevelop does, since Flex is essentially an Eclipse plugin. Eclipse has a word completion functionality built in for all file types. If you start typing the var name and then hit ATL+/ it will complete the word for you.

And another thing with Flex in case Adobe ever reads these things, code formatter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Need code formatter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hatu

Flex is really good. You can get like SVN plugins and stuff like that for it and handle most of the tasks inside Flex.
Only thing I don't like about it is the code completion that isn't as aggressive as in Flashdevelop where you can just type any characters from the var name and get the correct one.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr_malee

greedy for wanting things done for you and lazy for not doing them.

I want removeMovieClip
I want loadMovie
I want unloadMovie
I want getURL
I want onRelease

I dont want to create removeMovieClip myself
I dont want to create loadMovie myself
I dont want to create unloadMovie myself
I dont want to create getURL myself
I dont want to create onRelease myself

where are all the games using the "extra" abilities of AS3/F9 ?

I don't know every single game developed using these 3rd party API's, and there's no way you or anyone else (without decompiling) can tell me if its AS2 or AS3. All my games (past 5) have been AS3, developed in roughly 4 weeks, no physics engine no 3d engine, it does not take 9 months to develop a game in AS3. Maybe if you develop on/off sure, but that kind of time is crazy for a flash game. Why did I choose AS3? for speed execution of my code. To say that AS3 is a bad choice for game development is a very very weak argument.

---

I'm probably like a lot of designer/developers who have looked at AS3, and been turned off by it.

I really don't understand your argument, what is wrong with with having removMovieClip, unloadMovie etc ??..as apposed to me having to take the time to create those classes?...one takes no time.......the other takes some time....guess what's better?!.......If I can create a game no problem in AS2, why should I have to learn a new language, and then recreate a lot of things in AS3, just for what? a slight increase in player speed??...I think you are the one that is making the weak argument for using AS3, not the other way around. But hey I'm always open to learning new things :), explain to me why AS3 is so good for game development? as apposed to using AS2?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tonypa

It could be both good and bad news for actionscript. It surely means Adobe will make some changes now in its plans.

---

ok probably dumb question, but what will that mean for future Flash game development? will AS3 be dumped? changed?