Gun Control

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Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar

i would love to see the data for the 440 accidental. How many of those triggers were pulled by a kid and how many by an adult. I imagine the lions share of those are negligent adults.. not accidents.

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Well I wrote that that wasn't my point... My point was to express that I think that I don't think 440 people get killed by bears in the USA every year just because they aren't carrying guns :)

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Originally Posted by FlashLackey

what is the underlying motivation for non-US citizens to debate this issue?

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General interest in politics.

But a question to those who claim that guns aren't causing more deaths: What explains that USA are in company with less developed countries when it comes to murders per capita ? Is it bad mental health care? Or any other suggestions?

And you guys write alot in these threads when I'm asleep!

0.042802 per 1,000 people
0.0279271 per 1,000 people

only a little more then half of those murders are with firearms.

that still leaves .02 people per 1k people that are being murdered.

Still... can you come with any suggestion about what it can be causing those high murder rates?

people from other countries putting the wieght of the world on our shoulders?
living in a country thats the measuring stick for how other countries act?
knowing that when our president does something stupid the rest of the world thinks that we are the same exact way?
Foriengers thinking they know what its like to live in the us based on a website that spits out statistics?

So you think that's the reason?

its def not the gun control laws thats for sure.

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Originally Posted by silverx2

people from other countries putting the wieght of the world on our shoulders?
living in a country thats the measuring stick for how other countries act?
knowing that when our president does something stupid the rest of the world thinks that we are the same exact way?
Foriengers thinking they know what its like to live in the us based on a website that spits out statistics?

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boo hoo poor you.

squish squish have a tissue

So you can't think of any other reason?

sure I can : people

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Originally Posted by MagnusVS

So you can't think of any other reason?

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magnus what do you think the reason is.

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Originally Posted by MagnusVS

Still... can you come with any suggestion about what it can be causing those high murder rates?

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in the u.s.? drug prohibition.

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Originally Posted by silverx2

magnus what do you think the reason is.

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Hehe... haven't I made that clear in this thread?
I think it's partly the gun politics. Of course, I guess that's not the only reason.

if its the laws on guns then why is DC the place with the strictest gun laws, and the highest rate of gun crimes/deaths?

While places with less strict guns laws lower in gun related crimes?

Please magnus answer my question with a statistic that lumps all of the united states into one catagory.

I just say I think there is a connection. I am not familiar about the case with washington d.c. (if you have sources, please post)

Still. You just ask new questions. Why don't you suggest anything? Maybe it's easier to criticize others opinion?

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri...te-per-100-000

#1 District of Columbia: 31.2
#43 Maine: 6.5

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/#?st=DC

i cant tell you why people do the things they do. i am not them, your the one critizing our laws when there is nothing wrong with them.

This kid in the VT shooting Planned this out, he was sick in the head. He was sent to a mental institution in 2005 for being suicidal, after stalking a girl. He was going to hurt someone regardless of if he had a gun or not.

But saying gun controll is the only issue is retarded.

Since the v-tech shooting how many schools have had bomb threats? is that because of gun controll too? No its not its because there are some sick people in this world.

My g/f just called me to let me know her school got evacuated today because of a bomb threat, and i can tell you one thing, id feel about 200% safer if she had a hand gun, and proper training to use it so in the event when something serious does happen like the case of a crazy ass sick in the head freak does try to hurt someone and she is there she can subdue them with the force she is alowed to by law.

and if you think there is something wrong with that then your living in a dreamland where nothing bad happens to anyone.

Of course he was totally sick in his head.
But all I have tried to say in this thread is that in most other countries that you would compare USA against, people don't have that many guns, and there aren't that many murders. I think there is a connection, you don't. I don't know if I'm right, but there must be a reason...

pick a specific country. dont make it United states vs the world.

Not my intention to make it USA vs. the world.

Murders per capita:
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people

3-4 times as many murders as the UK.

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Originally Posted by MagnusVS

Not my intention to make it USA vs. the world.

Murders per capita:
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people

3-4 times as many murders as the UK.

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There will never be a "good" comparison.

The u.k. and the u.s. are a good bit different.

The u.k. is an island. The u.s. is not... a good amount of our murders are gang related.. one gang being ms13, that is from el savador. I don't think the u.k. has foreign gangs operating within their borders to the degree the u.s. does. I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by MagnusVS

Of course he was totally sick in his head.
But all I have tried to say in this thread is that in most other countries that you would compare USA against, people don't have that many guns, and there aren't that many murders. I think there is a connection, you don't. I don't know if I'm right, but there must be a reason...

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Watch out, you know what could be heading your way if you make those kind of suggestions... ;)

(Ahh, someone I recall capable of polite disagreement... ;))

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Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar

There will never be a "good" comparison.

The u.k. and the u.s. are a good bit different.

The u.k. is an island. The u.s. is not... a good amount of our murders are gang related.. one gang being ms13, that is from el savador. I don't think the u.k. has foreign gangs operating within their borders to the degree the u.s. does. I could be wrong.

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The border thing is a very valid point. The UK does however have a high level of social issues and youth gang-type violence (different type of gangs, but still groups that commit violence on other groups, race or even sports teams based) which I think would result in a much higher death rate if there was easier access to guns in the country.

I do think, socially at least, the UK is comparable on some levels with the US. More similarities than some place like Oz anyway, I would think. I seem to recall Scotland Yard and NYPD working very closely together in many areas. Hell, no two places are directly comparable, but if you're ever going to (or willing to) examine any serious social/crime issues then those imperfect comparisons are where you have to start.

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Originally Posted by MagnusVS

Not my intention to make it USA vs. the world.

Murders per capita:
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people

3-4 times as many murders as the UK.

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only 0.0279271 per 1,000 people of those is gun related.
0.00102579 per 1,000 people for the uk are gun related.

So we have more murders with weapons, But the UK murder each other in wildly differnt ways. Maby the UK needs to look into the other forms of murder and put regulations on them.

also crimes per capita
#6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people

So while we may have more murders(.03 per 1k people)
you have 5 more people commiting crimes.
Magnus on an aside, if you were going to be killed how would you rather die, by a gun shot, a knifing, or a stoning?

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Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo

(Ahh, someone I recall capable of polite disagreement... ;))

The border thing is a very valid point. The UK does however have a high level of social issues and youth gang-type violence (different type of gangs, but still groups that commit violence on other groups, race or even sports teams based) which I think would result in a much higher death rate if there was easier access to guns in the country.

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sure... but with gangs such as ms13.. it is not an american gang. it is an international gang originating in south america. While the police of the u.k. may be able to control youth type gangs, ms-13 has large amounts of money behind it (drugs). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13

I think comparing u.k. youth gangs to u.s. gangs is a bit like comparing a scooter to a tank. i could be way wrong.

The real reason I bring up gangs is that they are outside law enforcement, especially considering gun control.

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I do think, socially at least, the UK is comparable on some levels with the US. More similarities than some place like Oz anyway, I would think. I seem to recall Scotland Yard and NYPD working very closely together in many areas. Hell, no two places are directly comparable, but if you're ever going to (or willing to) examine any serious social/crime issues then those imperfect comparisons are where you have to start.

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New york is not representative of America. And the fact that Scotland Yard and nypd worked closely together really doesn't mean donkey poo. Hell the soviets and the u.s. bumped space capsules during the height of the cold war.

No, you're not "way" wrong. I'm certainly not comparing the types of gangs same-for-same, didn't mean to allude that, just that there were "gangs" that do commit violence with what they have at hand. Which in the UK is a lot less guns.

And NYC is no more representative of the US than London is of the UK, but it would suggest that someone somewhere thinks there is policing information worth sharing, however relevant (or not) to this issue (and how relevant neither of us here and now can say for sure in all honesty).

(and all that is really happening here is an exchange of ideas and thoughts, no one's making any accusations, just questions/ideas/thoughts, no?)

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Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo

No, you're not "way" wrong. I'm certainly not comparing the types of gangs same-for-same, didn't mean to allude that, just that there were "gangs" that do commit violence with what they have at hand. Which in the UK is a lot less guns.

And NYC is no more representative of the US than London is of the UK, but it would suggest that someone somewhere thinks there is policing information worth sharing, however relevant (or not) to this issue (and how relevant neither of us here and now can say for sure in all honesty).

(and all that is really happening here is an exchange of ideas and thoughts, no one's making any accusations, just questions/ideas/thoughts, no?)

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but you cant say for sure how often in those gang related murders the guns used were legally obtained. they could have easily come over the boarder and been used illegally.

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Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo

No, you're not "way" wrong. I'm certainly not comparing the types of gangs same-for-same, didn't mean to allude that, just that there were "gangs" that do commit violence with what they have at hand. Which in the UK is a lot less guns.

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Got you. Here is a thing to consider. Lets say the U.K. bordered India or Pakistan during the u.k.s slow decline from imperialism. Lets say many of the gangs in the u.k. were Indian or Pakistani. lets say India and Pakistan both had a large illegal drug crop.

are u.k. gangs largely in charge of drug distribution and other organized crime int he u.k.? for some reason I thought they just road around on their scooters or club racers ;)

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And NYC is no more representative of the US than London is of the UK, but it would suggest that someone somewhere thinks there is policing information worth sharing, however relevant (or not) to this issue (and how relevant neither of us here and now can say for sure in all honesty).

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I think it's just the matter that u.s. and u.k. cops can't speak more than one language. ;)

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Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar

The u.k. is an island. The u.s. is not... a good amount of our murders are gang related.. one gang being ms13, that is from el savador.

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You're probably right. And it was just this I was looking for: Alternative explanations. Of course Americans aren't worse than other people. But there's a fact that there are many murders being committed, and if it doesn't have anything to do with guns, people should come with other alternative explanations.

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Originally Posted by silverx2

only 0.0279271 per 1,000 people of those is gun related.
0.00102579 per 1,000 people for the uk are gun related.

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Still, it's 2,7 times as high.

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Originally Posted by silverx2

also crimes per capita
#6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people

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Crimes aren't the same as murders.

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Originally Posted by silverx2

Magnus on an aside, if you were going to be killed how would you rather die, by a gun shot, a knifing, or a stoning?

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I'd rather not die;) But as mentioned earlier in this thread: If a guy attacks you with a knife, your chances for survival are bigger than if he has a gun.

people are relating the amount of guns to the amount of crime. those numbers prove its an invalid arguement.

People in the uk are still being killed by things other then guns. why?

No one has even touched my comments?!
How the hell do those of you who are in favor of gun control think there is any way to actually control gun ownership?

C'mon...
five pages of discussion on a topic that cant actually happen?!

Gun control wont ever work because there is no way to actually control who gets a gun.
End of debate.

thats really not the end of the debate random, but thanks for playing.

we can control who can legally get guns and we do and it works, its the illegal guns that can not be contained.

The biggest issue is why are people killing people.

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Originally Posted by silverx2

its the illegal guns that can not be contained.

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That just proves that gun control doesn't actually work.

Aren't the illegal guns most likely to be the ones used to hurt people?

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Originally Posted by random25

That just proves that gun control doesn't actually work.

Aren't the illegal guns most likely to be the ones used to hurt people?

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all the gun control in the world isnt going to stop jorge from driving over from t.j with a trunk full of ak47's

Wanna know how you handle people with illegal guns? the legal guns you purchased for safty.

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Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar

Got you. Here is a thing to consider. Lets say the U.K. bordered India or Pakistan during the u.k.s slow decline from imperialism. Lets say many of the gangs in the u.k. were Indian or Pakistani. lets say India and Pakistan both had a large illegal drug crop.

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I understand somewhat the differences due to border issues. I think the question both I and Marcus have been asking is (please correct me if I'm wrong Marcus, don't want to put words in your mouth), do you really believe the ready availability of guns has nothing to do with the level of deaths? If you do, then opinion noted, we can agree to disagree, and no further discussion in this area required. But if you accept that it may contribute in some way (no one's said it's the only contributor), then the next issue would be if it's possible to have some control over this area.

I like examining an issue point by point. Keeps it nice and simple for my brain to process. ;)

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are u.k. gangs largely in charge of drug distribution and other organized crime int he u.k.? for some reason I thought they just road around on their scooters or club racers ;)

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There is a level of drug crime in the UK. Lot's of Asian and Middle East immigrants and with the good sneak in the bad. Lot's of racial issues. Football club hooligans though nowhere near as bad as it once was. But the general inner city urban environment is not dissimilar to some US cities in it's social mix and "feel" - though hard to quantify "feel" really...

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To help new members fit into Flashkit, three rules they forgot to tell you on signup: Rule #1: Learn Group Think, and behave accordingly | Rule #2: Do as Gerbick says, not as he does. | Rule #3: If you're from outside the US, don't at any time criticise, allude to, or hyperlink to criticism of the US or any of their laws, policies or practices. | Enjoy your time at Flashkit!

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Cute. Please remove my name from your footer.

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To help new members fit into Flashkit, three rules they forgot to tell you on signup: Rule #1: Learn Group Think, and behave accordingly | Rule #2: Do as Gerbick says, not as he does. | Rule #3: If you're from outside the US, don't at any time criticise, allude to, or hyperlink to criticism of the US or any of their laws, policies or practices. | Enjoy your time at Flashkit!

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Originally Posted by gerbick

Cute. Please remove my name from your footer.

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How about I don't say PLEASE...

TheOriginalFlashDavo remove gerbick's name from your footer or you will be removed, it's that simple. Harassing members (including Moderators and Super Mods) is against FK's AUP.

Also, try thinking about why you are always getting argued with, you are the common factor...

If you don't live and let live, I will ban and let those that are banned stay banned this time!

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Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo

do you really believe the ready availability of guns has nothing to do with the level of deaths? If you do, then opinion noted, we can agree to disagree, and no further discussion in this area required. But if you accept that it may contribute in some way (no one's said it's the only contributor), then the next issue would be if it's possible to have some control over this area.

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I would say it is a small contributing factor... and just how much Gun Control are you talking about. I have no problems with waiting periods and thorough background checks.

We should probably look at who is killing who. See how the figures break down for what. 66% of murders involve a firearm.

How much of that is organized crime. Gun control would do nothing about that.

How much is crimes of passion. I don't think gun control would do much, when you are pissed enough to kill you will kill with a gun, baseball bat or butchers knife.

How much is lunatics flipping out?

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Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar

I would say it is a small contributing factor... and just how much Gun Control are you talking about. I have no problems with waiting periods and thorough background checks.

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Doesn't happen in every state though does it? I recall someone said before that the trial of tighter laws in DC was never going to have much effect (even though it was taken to court and removed anyway) due to neighbouring states having more lax laws. So why not some consistency, at least trying something rather than nothing as appears to happen? Just seems like something worth considering.

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Originally Posted by EVPohovich

Also, try thinking about why you are always getting argued with, you are the common factor...

If you don't live and let live, I will ban and let those that are banned stay banned this time!

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Actually, the common factor is more often than not anyone with a viewpoint outside the "norm" in here. Observed this behaviour in threads I've had nadda to do with, and goes back over a number of years with folk who don't post here no more for that very reason.

So who was it that came out with the following merely due to a similar thread o discussion that has happened the last page or so:

"All of you.....**** it.....turds......pointing a finger at us need to stand down."

Yep, all my fault I guess for the thread spiralling into the abyss. :rolleyes:



(sorry TGLG, that might derail our conversation a little. Apologies, just in the mood to let the devil out today and not let sleeping dogs lie...)

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Originally Posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo

(sorry TGLG, that might derail our conversation a little. Apologies, just in the mood to let the devil out today and not let sleeping dogs lie...)

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Though before the thread goes off track again, interesting enough it seems the desire for stricter gun laws is gaining ground amongst the US public:

"Although it is unclear to what degree more rigid gun control laws might have prevented the Virginia Tech tragedy, Gallup's data suggest that the public is, in general, open to the idea of stricter laws governing the sale of firearms and more rigorous enforcement of gun control laws."
http://www.poppolitics.com/archives/...d_popular_cult