^lies. if you had any commonsense you would stop digging the hole you are stuck in and get out.
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^lies. if you had any commonsense you would stop digging the hole you are stuck in and get out.
ok guys, now lets play a fun game. The Game is called "Test of faith and belief"
what would happen if all the priests,saints and believers from all over the world who have this "great faith in god" made to assemble in one large open arena and asked to do their prayers(or whatever). Inform them a week in advance that they could do any sort of prayers to help themselves except try to escape out of the arena. A huge rock ball whose diameter equals the total diameter of the arena will be rolled into the arena when they are ready.
hey FlashLackey, let me take the non-believer side, and see if I can argue against you, for no reason at all :) (I believe in God, but let's say I don't).
First of all, I don't think that seeing is believing, as your eyes can be tricked very easily, every single piece of your body can be tricked to perceive something that is not there. Magic tricks aren't real magic, but your eyes tell you they are. Another example, some people with hipothermia can feel hot, eventhough they're freezing to death. Drink two tequilas, and the fattie sitting next to you will look hot, too.
So, you're right, a video of a lion eating a zebra might be fake or might be real, under certain conditions. First of all, yes, you do have to have some amount of faith to explain your own existence. You have to set rules and laws to the environment you're in, so that you can understand and explain everything you 'see'. If I didn't know that there's computers, 3d, photoshop, then I how could I doubt that a video of a zebra eating a lion is not the real thing? If you go back 100 years and show Jurassic Park to the people living at that time, they'll think it's real...how could you fake a dinosaur that looks so real? So, back to the zebra-lion video, while it could be fake, I know that there are ways to prove it's right: I can go to Africa and watch something similar by myself, I know there are video sources and I could, if I wanted, try to get them. I know that a video like that is possible, because I've seen a real cat eating a real rat. While I haven't seen a lion eating a zebra, I've seen them in a zoo. And gathering all that info, I know that even though there's a chance that a video like that is not real, it's more probable that it is, based on all the knowledge I have about the content in that video. Based on the same concept, I know that the video of an alien has more chances to be fake (eventhough it can be real) so I choose to think that it is a fake.
And yes, I have to believe in one of those two options (fake or real), because it's very difficult to prove which one is right. And if I want to prove it, I'll end up doubting my own existence, because most of us know nothing about everything, except for what you're told by somebody else, or read in books. You trust the people that teach you, and the books you read, but you know they can be wrong....when I was a kid, I read that Pluto was a planet, now people are telling me it is not? I was taught that all the physics in the world could be explains with Newton's laws, and know people tell me that it's not the case all the time? There are concepts in mathematics that I have to trust (what's pi, why is it 3.14, how can a number never end, why is it not 2?) eventhough I can't prove they're right. So, yes, my world exists due to faith, but it's a bit different with God.
With almost everything else, you have evidence, either that something is fake or real, but you have ways to prove it up to a certain point. But God, is there any evidence that he exists? is there any evidence that he doesn't exist? I think there's none for either side, but also based on the idea that usually the easiest explanation for something is usually the correct explanation, most of the nature and behavior of what God is supposed to do can be explained by physical, bulletproof, more logical facts that do have evidence. There's no video, photo, or proof that God exists. There's no evidence that he doesn't exist, but it's more probably, and more logical...so why would do people choose to believe in God and not in aliens? Even more, most of the explanations of the supernatural nature of God is contradictory. We can explain the behavior of aliens and UFOS better than the behavior of God...so, if you believe in God, and you're a bright reasonable person, I assume you also believe in aliens?
And the same goes for the bible....I don't think there was one single book that I used in highschool that didn't have a typo, or a factual error, or that presented some sort of subjective info, and also, there's a lot of 'facts' that I read in books, that now are proven wrong....so if I doubt the books I read, how could I based my faith in one single book, 'written by God', thinking that it has no errors, no false information....even more, when that book is a collection of books written during a couple centuries, translated and over translated, and that there's reasonable proof that the new testament was not written by actual witnesses, and that there's a reasonable doubt because there are other books which challenge the whole bible, which were at one point part of the same collections of books that form the bible, but somebody, or a lot of people, thought it was not convenient to include those books in the final edition of the bible?
I think that if I had to doubt God, I'd do it because how could I believe in an all powerful, always present being, if we, the human race are very close to be at the level we think he is at. He created life? I think that in a few years we'll be able to do so as well...he can be everywhere, at any time. We are like 1% there with technology, and probably in a couple of centuries, we'll be able to track everything in this planet. We can perform miracles...I think that we're very close to perform any kind of 'miracle': resurrecting the dead, magically cure you with the power of modifying your dna, moving thing from china to australia in a second, etc. (that very close is probably a few centuries, but it's possible). If we will overpower God, then maybe God doesn't exist, and it's just a concept of everything we can't understand yet, but will someday, and that'll be the day God dies.
Your test truly needs work. This doesn't test a believer in the slightest sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakflash
You've equated prayer and placebo. Which... honestly an atheist would do.
How about this. Prove to yourself that God cannot exist.
Gerbick, discussing the non existence of god needs an intelligent person for it to be somehow productive, and rational. You're asking too much.
Fine... since you're talking, I'll play devil's advocate. Let's say that God does not exist, and science reigns supreme.
With that said... all of the matter in the universe has never been explained as to how it become to be. Big Bang, Big Bounce... the nigh-algorithmic chaos and entropy that ebbs and flows in macro and micro environments, from molecular to subatomic... there seems to be a sense of patterns if you know how to look at them.
Is there a driving force behind the patterns? If so, is it algorithmic, is it a prime number we've yet to get to... or does positive and negative infinity (infinite big/infinite small) have some limit that is so incomprehensible that we would be better off just assigning a letter to it to represent how fast, vast, or small it is.
Oh wait. We do that. C = speed of light. ∞ (a sideways 8) equates to infinity. π (pi) equates to a never ending, naturally occurring sequence that lends itself well to circles. ϕ (phi) is the golden ratio... yet I don't see any doubt cast to their limits, existence or boundaries.
So it takes a formula to prove them. Like I said earlier... it took almost a century to prove E = mc2 (theory of relativity)... and yet people taught it in schools, universities, etc. for that hundred years like it was truth.
Now... to draw some parallels... people spoke the gospel like it was the truth. Even wrote it down. No proof was given for most, if any of what was being said. But people believed.
Seriously... the parallels of higher science and faith are pretty damn the same to me. Some things will never be proven. People built atom bombs from a potentially flawed equation. Nuclear plants from a potentially wrong equation. So... a society based on an unproven religion that just says - at its basest of statements - that we should be as kind to others as we want them to be to us - the Golden Rule - then it's not all bad.
Sure, bad things happen in the world. Explain the bad things, excuse them, look away, do something about it. Just like bad things will happen in science... like a better virus being created out of curiosity. Or never finding the cure for AIDS or cancer. Or the destruction of a city or two.
Same things/rules for religion. It's not all good. Neither is humanity.
And I'm not a conflicted person... I believe in both science and religion.
But seriously. Explain to me why I shouldn't believe that God doesn't exist. Prove beyond a starving person in a picture - don't want that person to starve any longer, go there, sponsor that person. I did it for 4 years with a family - until their oldest one went to college and he took over. And I did it directly with the family.
wait, you confuse me? questions with two negatives are difficult: "Explain to me why I shouldn't believe that God doesn't exist"...does that mean you want me to prove why you should believe god exists, or why you should believe he doesn't? :D
Exactly.
Why should I believe you when you can't explain yourself.
you don't need to believe me, because I don't know what I'm talking about either.
But you can listen to what I have to say, and after that make your own conclussions, because someone doesn't need to be right for you to hear them and get the right answer out of that.
You can't believe me? what if I wrote a book, would you then?
I don't need to explain myself. I don't need to defend a god that if he doesn't exist, I'd be wrong to defend, and if he exists, he could defend himself or probably has better things to do.
You make me sick, you you, Adriana Lima hater.
On another topic, what do you know about what's good? is killing a man good or bad?
And this is where I always tend to fail myself. I like to either be: right, proven wrong, or learn something.
Everything else is a waste of vocal cord vibrations and finger motion. You've made up your mind a long time ago.
</devil's advocate>
Bah. I don't hate Adriana Lima. Just find some other women much, much more psyc... I mean hotter.
uhhh, if dee dee told me that, I would be in heaven....mmmmhhh finger motion and vocal cord vibrations...Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick
good, because Adriani Limi is mine, so if I ever see you trying to get to her, I'll pray and pray until my friend Jesus goes to your house and kicks your ass...btw, Jesus Montes, the best puertorican hitman you can hire for $100.Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick
Some people deserve killing. Just not over flat screen televisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by argonauta
yeah, though I think it's more ironic to die while attending a religious festivity
http://gerbick.com/images/deedee.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by argonauta
Irony... or a showcase of when humanity goes very wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by argonauta
I don't care God exists but if it (he or she or anything) exists it watches life on earth like a comedy or tragical movie in TV (HD TV now) without interfering. It is not kind nor cares about what happens. It must be pretty amusing to watch life on earth like some poor handicapped fellow being hit by a truck.Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakflash
God is a sadist.
Thanks for feeding the kobold.Quote:
Originally Posted by cancerinform
Now, as it stands, enjoy that beautiful new television. I'm sure it does HDTV.
Of course, it's one of the better ones with high resolution. We are immigrants. We save before we spent. We don't know the word recession.
Probably God bought it's TV long time ago. It should get a coupon from the government for a converter box ;)
I don't buy anything smaller than a car unless I have the money at hand. Something that my parents taught me, it's not unique to immigrants.
My point, is that you are not really making any statement that truly does nothing but oppose calm conversation... back up your statement.
Do you know if God even watches us? I'm still stuck in devil's advocate mode. So prove to me that he does exist, thus would qualify as a sadist.
Argonauta :
damn, I wish i had read this before reading your #163.Quote:
you don't need to believe me, because I don't know what I'm talking about
Its like drivng a car in desert for nearly 20 hrs non-stop and finally reading a Sign - "No fuel/water in this part of the world"
He was using sarcasm and wit. Quite effectively in our exchanges actually.
Is this quote invisible to all "believers eyes" ?
Yes or No ? Thats it.Quote:
I dont need an answer from books that you think will surely fail, but from your heart Just tell me:
You do all the good things in the world and you don't believe in god, so do you think its a sin and you will go to hell? If God was someone like that who never gives you ticket to heaven just because you dont believe in him, he can not be 'God'.
Gerb, If someone does it, I am ready to hang myself in my bedroom :DQuote:
So prove to me that he does exist.
Yes !! Refer to the books.Quote:
Do you know if God even watches us
My point here is: Why the prayers? In what way is it going to help? And hence why this belief? I know prayers can not even move a dead mosquito, or bring it back to life.Quote:
Your test truly needs work. This doesn't test a believer in the slightest sense.
Only David Blaine can :D
Now you've gone into philosophy. Why prayers? Why not? Why do people confess to a preacher their sins? Why do people trust their psychiatrist with their nigh-subconscious thoughts? I treat a prayer as: 1) A way to put a positive, sincere vibe out in the world of negativity; 2) a way to organize myself to what I will/should be working on; 3) because it verbalizes what's heavy on my mind and allows me to cope.Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakflash
Find your own reasons. You've offered next to nothing but rampant questions, zero answers. That in itself is proving to seem to be more confrontational than you're probably intending.
And... David Blaine is the worst excuse for a magician. Ever. Great for spoofs though.
You can watch a child and they'll still either behave badly or might do something that is devoid of better decision making.Quote:
Yes !! Refer to the books.
Once again, what you're describing is a parent that's watching a child that's probably going to do more wrong than right before they "figure it out".
Let's face it. Humans are pretty damn bad at making decisions. Egocentric, greedy, stupid, warlike children. If there isn't a god, nature is one cruel mother****er with such a horrible, wasteful group at the top of the food chain with no social way to redeem themselves.
I'll pray that's not the case.
Gerbs, correct me if i am wrong: Now prayer is some kind of cummunication that we believe links us to God right? Or something that we do so that God listens to us. Now my question is why should we do a prayer and request God to help us when we already believe that God is watching everything and knows everything? Why should we ring up God and remind him about the suffering when he is already busy watching "everything" happen in his home theatre?
can we please end this thread here?Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakflash
i mean "communication".
Just two honest straight answers to my two simple questions and will end it there. Anyone?Quote:
can we please end this thread here?
Live your life, hey-ey, hey-ey, hey-ey....
deepak there is no such thing as a straight answer for your "simple" question. Its like trying to disprove that a tree in the woods makes a sound when it falls if there isnt anyone to hear it.
So you’ve reduced the probability of God existing to a 50-50; a flip of a coin. Surely, this would make you agnostic? That is, so long as you are unbiased on the matter. If you truly think that a theistic God (with all the moral baggage that comes with one) is as likely to exist as it is as unlikely, then why do you believe in the God you believe in (whichever one that may be), with all its prescriptions for morality, as opposed to Zeus or Allah? Assuming the existance of a deistic God is not quite enough; you still have all your work ahead of you.Quote:
But God, is there any evidence that he exists? is there any evidence that he doesn't exist? I think there's none for either side,
I can’t see how this is the case. Every major example I can think of (in the past 30 seconds) is contrary to this principle when it comes to matters of science (AKA experimental philosophy) & pure philosophy matters. An overwhelmingly salient converse example in my mind is Newton vs. Einstein. You can probably think of some things, but even so, I can’t see how you can explain away God as something which is simple. If you think the teleological argument of the Watchmaker is a good argument for the existence of God (the vast majority do, I’m assuming you do too, in fact I’d argue that it’s imperative for the belief in a theistic God), then you also assume that god must be more complex than anything else in the universe, indeed, he must be more complex than you or I, if he designed us. What you have created here (if not a paradox) is at least an intellectual dead end. You have then to explain away how God came about, yet that is impossible because it is a supernatural being. This aspect of the existence of a God shouldn’t be understated, because if he is indeed the prime mover, and is more complex than anything in existence, then how is it’s genesis more probable than the universe coming into existence on its own accord? You have all your work ahead of you still.Quote:
but also based on the idea that usually the easiest explanation for something is usually the correct explanation,
You can’t prove a negative. For example, you can’t prove the absence of bugs in a computer system. There’s no evidence that fairies don’t exist, but that certainly isn’t a good reason to believe in them.Quote:
There's no evidence that he doesn't exist
Because in every domain of discourse other than religion, the belief in pure conjecture is treated with utter ridicule. If you were utterly convinced that Elvis still walked the earth, would you dare prophesise his return to fame in a job interview, or indeed, in any conversation with a stranger? Such people are treated as delusional tomfools.Quote:
...why would do people choose to believe in God and not in aliens?
And therein lies some of the reasons why people actually do take that Leap of Faith and believe in the theistic God of their choosing. It has nothing to do with intuitive reasoning, and everything to do with Confirmation Bias, Motivated Reasoning, and various other cognitive mechanisms such as childhood-credulity, decoupled-cognition and reciprocal altruism, which were all once essential to our survival as a species. Religion hijacks these mechanisms, because people are afraid of the dark, we search for patterns and explanations where there are none, we want to survive our own death and we doubt what we don’t want to hear; that is, that the universe owes us *nothing*.Quote:
Even more, most of the explanations of the supernatural nature of God is contradictory. We can explain the behavior of aliens and UFOS better than the behavior of God...so, if you believe in God, and you're a bright reasonable person, I assume you also believe in aliens?
Why should I correct you? Seriously, I've said it too many times already; make up your own mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakflash
You don't believe? Fine. I will not be commissioned to make you believe. It's something I did for myself; I'm no better than you/
Prayer is not direct communication. I've stated it before; I've likened prayer to "putting good vibes out there"... meaning through will and intent, good things happen at a human level.
There is no "ringing up God". That's a childish way to look at anything religious. Perhaps my way is too zen for most to follow; however it works for me.
Read the books. Prayer is the only way to get your intention out there. You're just too damn stubborn to see anything otherwise. So like I said earlier... God doesn't exist.
Now. What did you do this week to help the humans around you?
It starts there.
fine and fine.
This week none. Last week yes.Quote:
Now. What did you do this week to help the humans around you?
Me and my friend were eating in a fastfood, we saw this poor man sitting by the roadside. When we were about to leave, we managed to buy a parcel of 2 'masala dosa' for him. He was so happy and excited he was in no mood or had time to even react, he literally jumped into the plastic bag.
And you Gerbs?
So again, thats a belief right?Quote:
I've likened prayer to "putting good vibes out there"... meaning through will and intent, good things happen at a human level
I am not asking anyone to give me the exact answer which you think needs a thorough indepth knowledge and reference to a million pages in books, just what you 'feel' in your heart, thats all i want. You dont need anyones permission to speak your heart, right?Quote:
deepak there is no such thing as a straight answer for your "simple" question. Its like trying to disprove that a tree in the woods makes a sound when it falls if there isnt anyone to hear it.
I know you have all tried your best to explain to me that there is no exact answer to this and i understand that. Also i really appreciate everyone from bottom of my heart for all your explanations.
Just tel me what your heart feels?
1) Assuming God exists, why should we do a prayer and request God to help us when we already believe that God is watching everything and knows everything?
2) Assuming God exists, If you do all the good things in the world but you don't believe in God, do you think this is a sin and you will go to hell?
If God was someone like that who never gives you ticket to heaven just because you dont believe in him, he can not be 'God'.
Donated two cellphones to the local battered women's shelter, donated food to the local food bank, gave toys to the local Salvation Army, gave time to a local hospice as part of the grief counseling I'm currently attending, and paid an elderly ladies power bill for this winter. That was this week. Next week, more toys perhaps to the local Shriner's since they give to plenty of the kids in the local burn ward and cancer clinics in this county.Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakflash
I try to give back wherever I'm at. I've dug ditches and wells while in Turkey, among other places that were not my immediate surroundings - my home.
You've never been told otherwise. Speak away; just understand that your tone is not friendly at times. Understand that.Quote:
I am not asking anyone to give me the exact answer which you think needs a thorough indepth knowledge and reference to a million pages in books, just what you 'feel' in your heart, thats all i want. You dont need anyones permission to speak your heart, right?
I've stated that you shouldn't assume that God does exist. It's not a necessary item in order to remain human.Quote:
I know you have all tried your best to explain to me that there is no exact answer to this and i understand that. Also i really appreciate everyone from bottom of my heart for all your explanations.
Just tel me what your heart feels?
1) Assuming God exists, why should we do a prayer and request God to help us when we already believe that God is watching everything and knows everything?
2) Assuming God exists, If you do all the good things in the world but you don't believe in God, do you think this is a sin and you will go to hell?
If God was someone like that who never gives you ticket to heaven just because you dont believe in him, he can not be 'God'.
Meh. Now I'm starting to feel like I'm wasting my time because I keep saying the very same damn thing over and over.
WOW. GREAT So a moderator God here in CL :)Quote:
Donated two cellphones to the local battered women's shelter, donated food to the local food bank, gave toys to the local Salvation Army, gave time to a local hospice as part of the grief counseling I'm currently attending, and paid an elderly ladies power bill for this winter. That was this week. Next week, more toys perhaps to the local Shriner's since they give to plenty of the kids in the local burn ward and cancer clinics in this county.
I try to give back wherever I'm at. I've dug ditches and wells while in Turkey, among other places that were not my immediate surroundings - my home.
yea me tooQuote:
Meh. Now I'm starting to feel like I'm wasting my time because I keep saying the very same damn thing over and over.
I believe in God and Science. Believing in God brings me peace, more than finding Science as a reason/explanation. When my late mum passed away in front of my eyes, my faith made me accept her submission and gave me the strength to recover from my loss. I could have throwed a tantrum, or created chaos over why someone so beautiful had to leave us so early, but my faith gave me peace.
So if I were to answer your question of does God exists? To me, yes - and only to me, for I am not answering for anyone else in this forum. I suppose my faith is too strong to be shakened, and as taught from a very young age, I will respect other religions, other beliefs and so far, life's been really good.
This I can't answer for definite. Its up to you to decide (after studying the respective religious context of course.) BUT if you must get an answer from me, and what knowledge that I have of, my answer is No - you won't fail to go to heaven just because you don't believe in god.Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakflash
Then again, if you don't believe in God, will you believe in Heaven or Hell?
None.Quote:
if you don't believe in God, will you believe in Heaven or Hell?
We are born like any other creature, we live, and we disappear. Can you imagine dogs, cats, snakes, elephants, rats, whales being in heaven (or hell)??
If dogs, and cats can not take up the responsibility of a sinner, and so does human(i believe). Just because we humans have 6 senses doesn't mean we have different concept of life and take the blame of being a sinner.
Folks, let me atleast "try" to prove that God doesn't exist.
Now why do we believe that "something exists". Its because we are able to either see it, touch it, hear it, or feel it. If not, all the above. But if something that doesn't qualify even one of the above parameter can be termed as non-existing. So in case of God its none of the above parameter.
Ok now I can hear most of you say God is not a "thing" to prove he exists. If thats the case then how do we prove something which is not a "thing" exists? What is an example of a such a thing which is not a "thing" other than God :)
Anyone?