Here's a question. Why would something as unique as the Universe (in other words, reality itself) be such a chaotic mess? Why would all the stuff that makes it up be in the position they are now? Existence simply doesn't make too much sense without reason.
It is no chaotic mess, it's just very complex. :)Quote:
Originally posted by jide
be such a chaotic mess?
Fredi
you mean apart from ETH teaching college in Zurich, Zurich University and Munich University?Quote:
Originally posted by DigitalOne
I just thought it was an interesting read, is all. I didn't really think Einstein said this, for one because I know Einstein never went to college, and it just seemed so far fetched.
I did find it thought-provoking, at least.
How convenient.Quote:
Originally posted by flashpenguin
No human will EVER prove 100% that God exists with science because God doesn't want us to.
Did he tell you that himself, O conduit to the Heavens, or has that idea simply been drilled into your head so long that you just assume it's fact?
NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO 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NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NONONONONONONO
Swampy ... you need help? :D
Try to prove that you exist or that I exist or that the screen in front of you exist. Good luck. :pQuote:
Originally posted by hurricaneone
Did he tell you that himself
Fredi
I don't get the trying to prove god thing, or the Intelligent Design thing. It's like trying to squeeze biology out of science and replace it with faith.
If *you* believe in god, then accept that you have faith that god exists and quit trying to reconcile your religious beliefs with scientific knowledge
What? That the screen's not actually 'there' due to the space between particles?Quote:
Originally posted by Subway
Try to prove that you exist or that I exist or that the screen in front of you exist. Good luck. :p
Fredi
I have faith enough to believe that the screen in front of me exists. But that's just about the limit of my piety.
I think swampy's blown a fuse. Or his keyboard jammed. Or he's upset that this is rapidly descending into a mudslinging affair (with no bikinis involved to make it worthwhile)
From the true holy book:=^_^=Quote:
The Ruler of the Universe is a very interesting person indeed. He lives in a small shack on a world that can only be reached with the use of an Infinite Improbability Drive. He does not want to rule the universe and tries not to whenever possible, and therefore is by far the ideal candidate for the job. He has an odd view of reality: he lives alone with his cat, which he has named "The Lord", he has a very dim view of the past, and he only believes in what he sees with his eyes and ears: anything else is hearsay. He has been known to talk to his table for a week to see how it reacts.
"To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone capable of getting themselves made President should by no means be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."
"How can I tell that the past isn't a fiction designed to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?" –The Ruler of the Universe
"My Universe is my eyes and ears. Anything else is hearsay." –The Ruler of the Universe
"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha!' It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it...because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality that like leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know they won't give up. They'll get you in the end." –Ford Prefect
(Yes, if I came across a small shack with a sign hanging over the front door on the inside reading "The Asyum", I might just start to believe...)
I don't think it's a chaotic mess. The universe is perfect. Our own solar system is a giant timepiece which keeps all the planets in their perfect moving order. It is very complex and you and I may not understand exactly how and why everything in the universe works the way it does but someone with an infinate mind would..Quote:
be such a chaotic mess?
first of all you left out the part of my quote that says humans will never prove 100% that God DOESN'T exist either. None of you athiests can show me scientific proof that God doesn't exist that I can't fight with my own scientific proof. You're also very mistaken to believe that anything has been drilled into my head so long that I would just assume anything. I don't 'think' God exists, I know he does and It's not because someone told me or because my society made me, it's because of experiences that I have had in my life that leave me with no doubt whatsoever. I have actually read the bible and many other religion's books which is more than you can say, and everything I've found in the bible only goes along with my scientific beliefs as well..Quote:
quote:Originally posted by flashpenguin
No human will EVER prove 100% that God exists with science because God doesn't want us to.
How convenient.
Did he tell you that himself, O conduit to the Heavens, or has that idea simply been drilled into your head so long that you just assume it's fact?
There's a reason for everything man.. and I've rambled on too much already but I'll just say this one thing.. Think about it logically. If God is a perfect God then logically he can only create perfect things or else he would cease to be perfect. So If he created Adam and Eve perfect then there's no way they would ever die.. they would of never experienced pain or joy.. So he had to create them perfect but allow a way for them to (on their own through disobedience) become imperfect and mortal.Quote:
"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha!'
I'm not trying to push God on you guys that don't wan't to believe he exists. That's totally your decision, but, If you're gonna claim the bible is a big fantasy lie then you should of atleast read it first. Otherwise just stick to carbon dating..
I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, but this makes me curious; why would god only be able to create perfect things? And, if they were perfect, why would they not be able to experience joy or pain?Quote:
Originally posted by flashpenguin
There's a reason for everything man.. and I've rambled on too much already but I'll just say this one thing.. Think about it logically. If God is a perfect God then logically he can only create perfect things or else he would cease to be perfect. So If he created Adam and Eve perfect then there's no way they would ever die.. they would of never experienced pain or joy.. So he had to create them perfect but allow a way for them to (on their own through disobedience) become imperfect and mortal.
Why would people have to put limits on an all-powerful being to make his actions 'logical'? Either god is an all-powerful illogical being, or he is a logical being with limited powers. Which is it?
Just so you know, I don't look down on anyone for having a sense of spirtuality, and I'm not trying to belittle you at all. I just have these few demands: I want my girlfriend to nag, my politicians to lie, and my mysterious beings to operate outside my understanding. Is that too much to ask?
"creation science" is an oxymoronic phrase
That's a good point.. In my opinion there are certain eternal laws that simply coexist with God that he didn't create.. they simply exist because they must. One example would be gravity, God didn't "create" gravity it just exists between two bodies. So God can use gravity to accomplish his works but also having a perfect understanding of all matter allows him to control these elements.Quote:
why would god only be able to create perfect things? And, if they were perfect, why would they not be able to experience joy or pain?
In the bible it says that God cannot create an imperfect thing or he would cease to be perfect. This principal is almost impossible to explain with human understanding because we don't know all the eternal truths and laws that coexist with God. For example light and truth exist eternally. God didn't create light he simply works with it. God didn't create truth it just exists. I believe that for God to create something it must be perfect when he creates it. It's not a matter of putting limits on God's power or logic. Since he has a perfect knowledge of the eternal laws of light and truth and all physical laws he knows that only by following the eternal laws will his plan work.
As for why they wouldn't be able to experience joy or pain: They were placed in the garden with no sin, they couldn't feel pain because their bodies were perfect and without pain and saddness it's impossible to feel joy and happiness, another eternal truth, there has to be an opposition in all things. They were given two commandments: 1. multiply and replenish the earth. 2. do not partake of the fruit of the tree. When eve ate the fruit and offered it to adam, adam ate the fruit too so that he would be able to be with eve in mortality and obey the first commandment which was multiply and replenish the earth.. This was called "the fall" and it wasn't just the fall of man from perfection but also the earth. The earth used to be perfect with one continent 90 degrees upright in the solar system with no polar caps and no earthquakes but then the fall changed everything, the continents broke apart, the earth became volitile, the lion no longer laid down with the lamb etc etc..
But see, isn't that an inherant contridiction? If there is something god cannot do, he is not, by definition, omnipotent. If he is not all-powerful, then there are powers in the universe other than him. If there is one all powerful force in the universe, it cannot be god (as long as that force can in fact place a burrito in a microwave).Quote:
Originally posted by flashpenguin
In the bible it says that God cannot create an imperfect thing or he would cease to be perfect.
This is the logical argument, of course. I stand by my conviction that logic, reason and reality itself are greatly works of our own imagination and should have little to no bearing on how we think about the universe.
I would also point out that creating a fundimentally flawed thing can also be perfect, if its design was to be flawed.
But it just seems to me that everyone who tries to fit god into a rational explanation using science as evidence ends up deminishing him, so in the end, what's the point?
I've read the bibile at least 5 times. Both old and new, and if you saw any of that scientific stuff you claim is in there, then you either read a different version, or you read things into it that weren't there. And really, unless you read ancient greek or aremaic, then all you've read is a bad translaton of a collection of writings from a bunch of crack brained outcasts who were too weird to live in their own society.Quote:
I have actually read the bible and many other religion's books which is more than you can say,
First, I would want to know who wrote a book before quoting it or using it as an owners manual for the "soul".
depends on how you look at it.. truth is truth.. It is impossible for truth not to be truth. The fact that God "can't" turn truth into lie or lie into truth for me doesn't make him any less omnipotent. I agree that there may be powers in the universe other than him but they are not 'more' powerful than him they simply co-exist in the order of the universe. All things in the universe recieve order from higher order. From the electron to the moon to the earth to the sun to the galaxy and the universeQuote:
But see, isn't that an inherant contridiction? If there is something god cannot do, he is not, by definition, omnipotent.
That's an interesting concept but I think if it's design was to be flawed then it wasn't designed to be perfect, it was designed to be flawed. something is only perfect if it is perfect. a sphere designed to be flawed isn't a sphere.. That theory can certainly be applied to art in my opinion because you and I both could sculpt a perfect statue but they're different from each other. I made a perfect statue of a dog and you made a perfect statue of a dog with 3 legs. Both of our statues are still perfect but your statue only has 3 legs.Quote:
I would also point out that creating a fundimentally flawed thing can also be perfect, if its design was to be flawed.
Anyways, my goal isn't to fit God into a rational explanation using science. It does't deminish him in my opinion but it's still not the best way to prove his existence. Nobody will ever believe in God because of scientific findings. Faith in God has to be metaphysical..
I read the King James version, and yes it has translation flaws, but the fundamental historical events are basically intact. As for the crackbrained outcast comment, there's really nothing I can say that would change your opinion if it's really that strong. If you doubt any of the science I've used in my posts then tell me which part and I'll give you the scripture. However all I have here in the house is a bible in spanish with none of my markings, but I'll do my best to find the verses..Quote:
Originally posted by iaskwhy
I've read the bibile at least 5 times. Both old and new, and if you saw any of that scientific stuff you claim is in there, then you either read a different version, or you read things into it that weren't there. And really, unless you read ancient greek or aremaic, then all you've read is a bad translaton of a collection of writings from a bunch of crack brained outcasts who were too weird to live in their own society.
First, I would want to know who wrote a book before quoting it or using it as an owners manual for the "soul".
Those "fundamental historical events" you speak of are just history as they saw it then. But even they, speaking of what god did or did not do was just their opinion, since they weren't there and nobody had a camcorder at the time. All they had to go on was verbal stories handed down from one believer to the next, over who knows how long. Proven time and again in modern times to not be the best way to record actual events.Quote:
Originally posted by flashpenguin
I read the King James version, and yes it has translation flaws, but the fundamental historical events are basically intact. As for the crackbrained outcast comment, there's really nothing I can say that would change your opinion if it's really that strong. If you doubt any of the science I've used in my posts then tell me which part and I'll give you the scripture. However all I have here in the house is a bible in spanish with none of my markings, but I'll do my best to find the verses..
Instead of reading biased religious works, try and diversify, read some other accounts by Romans living in the time of jesus that were not christians, read all you can and go to all the museums you can visit to find out what life was really like 2000 years ago, and 35,000 years ago when these religions were just getting started. The more recent evidence should make you very sceptical about what a few castouts were writing about, and the really old evidence, what there is of it, will at least give you an insight into how religion and a belief in omnipotent gods is more likely to be a mental abberation than actual fact.
how the hell did a thread on Einstien turn into YET ANOTHER debate on whether God is a giant lemur or not?
Just wait a thousand years and it'll be St. Albert and this stupid subject will still be hotly debated on yet another thread, page 100, 532.Quote:
Originally posted by swampy
how the hell did a thread on Einstien turn into YET ANOTHER debate on whether God is a giant lemur or not?