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Originally Posted by OpethRockr55
See? I knew what I was typing four thread pages ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Helmsman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpethRockr55
See? I knew what I was typing four thread pages ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Helmsman
in reply to Helmsman
great games of the past where not all created by the marketing people no, but i'm sure some of those games can owe their success to marketing, otherwise they would of never got the exposure they needed to be successful. But that was back then, nowdays 99% of games are created due to focus groups and market surveys, and no willingness to take a "risk".Quote:
They were created because marketing guys decides that their next title must be 3D and it will better then HL or Quake just because 3D rules :-) All of them failed :-)
most people who are in to creating flash games for a living are obviously doing it to make as much money as possible. This basically means time. Which is why a lot of developers are not about to spend a lot of that time helping someone else earn a living! Because its hard, either you have a full time job, and you do Flash games on the side and you havn't got a lot of time, or you do Flash games full time, and you spend all your time split between working on commerical contracts (to pay the bills) and looking for those commercial contracts, again no time left over for much else. Its also a control thing, I know I like being in control of any projects i'm involved with. Having said all that, teams are still the way to go for high quality Flash games, and Flash the community is uniquely placed to setup those kinds of teams. I think if people could clearly see a financial reward for being in part of a team, then I think thats enough for them to use some of their time doing that. But thats the problem with the Flash games industry right now....there isn't one.Quote:
Are you ready to unite with the other Flash developer to create a next revolutionary title? Or all you can say is "Do you know, mate... It's a pretty good idea, but I can't participate in your project because I haven’t time to help you?"
Well I have to disagree. I remember that while doing commercial things for a living, we still decided to develop a platform game + level editor in flash in order to:Quote:
Originally Posted by Boombanguk
a) learn new flash skills
b) have another kind of product to offer to the customers
c) do something more chalenging than the "easy" stuff that customers are happy with anyway
So I think it's a personal chalenge AND a good thing for business as well.
You always find time if you really want to do something.
When people say "I don't have time to go to swim" that really means "I don't want to use my time for that kind of activity".
It's all about choice...
in reply to artlink:
be nice if life was as simple as that :), unfortunately it never is. But my reply was in response to someone asking would I become involved in a team situation, and the above was my reply to that. The bottom line is I would be prepared to be involved in a team situation if I felt it was a good use of my time, and the right kind of financial reward. I agree with a lot of peoples gripes on FK that too many come on here wanting to make something happen and expecting people to pitch in their time and energies without no clear financial reward. Time is money, and that the point I was making above. Add to that the Flash freelancing world is VERY competitive. Squize may question whether there are lots of people that do what we do, but all I know is when a possible contract comes up from an agency, there are at least 10 people always on hand to do that work. Agencies can get away with not having to charge what they should for Flash work simply because its a sellers market. If flash game designers/developers really where in such short supply, then we would be getting paid a hell of a lot more then we do now!
Well, we don't all work on Flash productions for the money. Some of us, including myself, spend about 50% of our free time creating random things in Flash. A few of us are still too young for work, so we develop our skills in hopes that we'll one day be needed for something great.
I'm one of those who can't sleep at night, and nothing worth watching is shown on television, so I work on my internet projects. Right now, I'm hard at work on a beat 'em up side-scrolling game that features characters from my favorite forums. It has a stat-based physics engine, which is used to give it a more progressive feeling than your average Flash game. I'm only about 10% done with the coding, though.
I don't expect help from anyone, but I still ask, because I hope for help from as many people as possible. I've recruited a music composer and a friend who has invested a lot of time into Lightwave. I'm also waiting on a bit of artwork from a fellow artist for the website. So there you have it, a Flash project that's completely non-profit and still looking awesome.
well thats cool, I hope your project goes well :)
Been some great points been raised here whilst I've been through the hell of moving house this w/end.
"One problem I see out there, even with high-profile adver-games that have had $100k budgets, is you have Ad Agency types making games. That's just wrong. People making games should be people who KNOW how to make good games, not wanna-bes."
Totally. Also, and I know I've said this many times before, there is a world of difference between a game developer and a programmer. To develop good games you need to have a feel for them, which I think comes from experience. In a way I'm so lucky to be an old fart 'cause I've grown up throught the 8/16 bit era, and those are the sorts of games which are ideal for Flash. I think everyone my age has a big advantage 'cause we saw games through fresh eyes. How many people aged 13-14 would enjoy firing up Uridium on a C64 ? It's 'cause they've played better and bigger games, although the gameplay in those old games is still good even today.
And going back to my original point, there are a lot of people here who are better coders than me, but doesn't mean all of them are better game developers than me.
"Well I have to disagree. I remember that while doing commercial things for a living, we still decided to develop a platform game + level editor in flash"
Sorry, got to disagree with you mate. Boombanguk had it spot on. When working in a commercial enviorment you don't have the luxury to really push and experiment. A lot of the "gloss" of commercial work is down to the designer and not the coder. If you look at the two games I did for Death in Sakhara they are pretty good, but nothing radical about them at all. They both used my scroller class that I've already posted here. I had about 4 days on each, that includes all the tweaks and adding the love. No where near enough time to push things as hard as I would have liked.
"I know is when a possible contract comes up from an agency, there are at least 10 people always on hand to do that work. Agencies can get away with not having to charge what they should for Flash work simply because its a sellers market."
Got to be honest, I was lucky and didn't have to freelance for too long, but I know we ( preloaded ) have a mare trying to get Flash games developers on board. A million and one designers who can do a bit of Flash to knock out a quiz, or base something on a FK open source, but very few people who can do something more than that.
Squize.
Couldn't agree more. Firing up the amstrad or, a bit later, the sega mastersystem (the hip-cat devices of my early gaming days) was way more exciting for me than a ps2 or xbox now. They're the games that birthed my passion for games, and because they're possible to emulate in flash, i can apply that passion to my flash games. Thats got to be an advantage.Quote:
In a way I'm so lucky to be an old fart 'cause I've grown up throught the 8/16 bit era, and those are the sorts of games which are ideal for Flash. I think everyone my age has a big advantage 'cause we saw games through fresh eyes. How many people aged 13-14 would enjoy firing up Uridium on a C64 ? It's 'cause they've played better and bigger games, although the gameplay in those old games is still good even today.
in reply to squize:
I agree. Having played all kinds of games for over just over 20 years, it gives you a certain instinct for what works interactively and what doesn't. I think the difference with me and perhaps some others on here is that i'm still playing games :), maybe that means i've never grown up, but I loved the thrill of exploring an unknown fantasy world when I was 13 and that hasn't changed.Quote:
And going back to my original point, there are a lot of people here who are better coders than me, but doesn't mean all of them are better game developers than me.
Unfortunately this is true, trying to make money from doing something we all love (i.e Flash games developement) is a full time job in itself.Quote:
....They both used my scroller class that I've already posted here. I had about 4 days on each, that includes all the tweaks and adding the love. No where near enough time to push things as hard as I would have liked.
A lot of people who I know who worked in-house are now working freelance (although sometimes on a "in-house" basis). I've even seen jobs advertised making fun at the fact that all Flash developers are now freelance. I've always refused to work in-house, either full time or on a contractual basis (which seems to defeat the objective of being freelance to me) for many reasons, which I won't go into here, which I know has lost me some jobs in the past, but thats fine by me.Quote:
Got to be honest, I was lucky and didn't have to freelance for too long, but I know we ( preloaded ) have a mare trying to get Flash games developers on board. A million and one designers who can do a bit of Flash to knock out a quiz, or base something on a FK open source, but very few people who can do something more than that.
in reply to IFrit:
It is absolutely, but whats more of an advantage is having actually been involved in programming those old games :), because of course like you said the development of them and whats possible on Flash now is similar, so it gives you a head start.Quote:
i can apply that passion to my flash games. Thats got to be an advantage.
I don't need you to agree on it: I DID IT. It's not a theory or a wish, it was the way the company was managed and each project was a chalenge, experimenting new technics all the time, and I am talking here about 1 week to create an ad for tv or something like that and still, experimenting with flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squize
Maybe you enjoy selling the same "scroller class that you've already posted here" again and again. Sorry mate, life is too short and will be too boring not taking any risk. Don't need to be bury with the safe full of cash but having try as much as possible.
We've created ads in 4 days for 25K, but nothing beats a piece of flash code that actually does what you expected it to do.
It's a question of choice, but you don't have to like the idea.
Hmmmm maybe you want to pull your horns in a little bit there.
It's not through choice that I re-cycle code where ever possible, and it's not through choice that I don't get to do a 100% creatively what I want to do. I work to deadlines and budgets and clients' expectations.
I'm quite content with our statue in the industry and quite content with the awards we've picked up.
There is a world of difference between not being able to do totally what you want to do due to outside and real life pressures, and producing crap. We've never produced crap.
Wanting to be more inovative with my code isn't the same as churning out the same old thing over and over, it's a case of being smarter when using existing assets.
Squize.
oh please after all this nice discussion of indie gaming and the future of flash gaming, must you now try to turn it into a pissing contest? Artlink, please, there are lots of professional invloved in this discussion, all of whom I'm quite sure could whip out some big impressive numbers reagrding commercial projects, let's not go down that road ey?
Chris
seeing it was my point that start this little spat, i guess I better make my point clear! :)
in reply to artLink:
if you can produce a tv ad in 1 week, then more power to you :), we all have to live with the quality of the work we produce. And the standards we use to judge our work is based on many factors, such as how much the client is willing to pay? and how long have I got to do this? There is a question here though relating to Flash and Flash games specifically, and that is, is "good" good enough? to most clients it is, because there just isn't the time with most projects to go beyond that, and they are happy that they have a good playable game. We are of course here talking about games used in marketing capaigns, NOT Flash games created for the sake of playing them as you get on portals, and on that subject i've said lots of times on here that I don't think the quality IS good enough.
God!Quote:
oh please after all this nice discussion...
I think it was all going very depressing actually and I just couldn't take anymore of the negative thinking of you guys. I aint even sure if you realize how negative you think.
Yes you can make a living developing flash games
Yes you can experiment things while making profits in a rough commercial system. And not only you can but you have to I think.
It's not what I think, it's what I have done.
It was just getting so silly that I felt like hearing 14 yo talking about their dad's company and not having a clue of what it really is to manage a company.
I don't care about the amount of money - I am currently working for a non-profit organisation thats enough to say, earning 4 times less than if I had to answer the phone in an IT out there - it's just numbers to give you example.
"nice discussion"...good grief!
It was an "interesting" one and that's what it has to be, not an "no realistic but nice one".
Game development is though...luckily, won't be fun otherwise.
errrr......okay....I shall not involve msyelf any further in this discussion, I must have misunderstood something along the way, I'm pretty sure myslef, squize and others, know that you most certainly can make a living out of flash games, whether it be for your own compnay or within in an agency, neither is easy, in terms of balancing development times against budgets, or brand guidelines against the needs of the game, but it can be done.
laters
Not about game development, but I found it is related to this thread: "Flash Developer Survival Guide".
http://www.lordalex.org/2006/01/flas...ival-guide.php
good link tonypa
Some article which will be interesting to all of you guys:
link
Found it today - and it's pretty good! It's all about we've discussed in that thread. Happy reading!
I read a post from tony a while back and he said something along the lines of chaina making all of the flash games because they can make them cheeper. Why dose the poor quality of flash games screw up the flash dev world and not with the C++ world. I have played and seen heeps of no hoper C games.
I am guessing it has somthing to do with the amount of poor quality flash games being put out there. :( How sad