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so does that mean mark is in hell. I'm pretty sure if the resurrection was that important, the first guy to write down a gospel would have firmed it up a little better. Or was mark still a jew and jews don't go to hell??Quote:
Originally Posted by orgyborgy
David blane has flown in an airplane... if jesus did that 2000 years ago.. I bet christianity would have gotten off to a better start ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by aversion
If Jesus were alive today (I mean in the flesh for believers)....
Do you think he would have been a Windows or Mac user?
yes that is true!Quote:
Actually, the crucifixion and resurrection are the most important parts of Chrisitianity. Christ's teachings are important, no doubt, but the crucifixion and resurrection are what make Christianity unique and ultimately what saves Christians from going to hell.
that is the stupidest Q!!Quote:
If Jesus were alive today (I mean in the flesh for believers)....
Do you think he would have been a Windows or Mac user?
yes tons of stuff he healed the leopards rose ppl from the dead and rose himself from the dead!Quote:
Ask yourself, did jesus really do anything that David Blane hasn't?
no kidding, he would use linux. suse I imagine.
Would Jesus ever zap his PRAM?
Wasn't that a Ministry song?Quote:
Originally Posted by creativeinsomnia
Jesus Zapped My PRAM?
I heard Jesus is a big fan of Fat32 as well, can you confirm this manfogle?
but (according to what you posted) jesus and god are the same, thus, 'jesus rose from the dead' can be converted to 'god rose from the dead' (a=b .: a->c == b->c) which contradicts the claim that god is immortal.Quote:
Originally Posted by j.manfogle
:)
Nah, I think your wrong...Quote:
Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar
http://addesignconcepts.com/yo/thinkdifferent.jpg
this is starting to get really stupid hey Mods if u want to u can close this thread
Nah... he'd use pure code... binary or something! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by admedia
I didn't know the leopards were sick! Poor kitties.Quote:
Originally Posted by j.manfogle
bwaaahahahahaaa
But what does The Flying Spaghetti Monster use?
Didn't read other posts...
How do you know that with all the religions, out there, that Christianity is right?
Its a question like that which makes me hate being alive. Seriously.
leopards? omg fogle...
Good! Now we can have a serious discussion...Quote:
Originally Posted by j.manfogle
J.manfogle, I have a simple challenge for you (your parents and your pastor can help too). My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that you tell me exactly what happened on the day that Christianity's most important doctrine was born.
The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened.
Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is permissible to make educated guesses. The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture--it only needs to give at least one plausible account of all of the facts. Additional explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses. The important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one single biblical detail be omitted. Fair enough?
Good. I'll be eagerly waiting to see how well you do, but while we're waiting I'll share with you that when I was an ordained minister I was given this same challenge and failed.
One of the first problems I found is in Matthew 28:2, after two women arrived at the tomb: "And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it." (Let's ignore the fact that no other writer mentioned this "great earthquake.") This story says that the stone was rolled away after the women arrived, in their presence.
Yet Mark's Gospel says it happened before the women arrived: "And they said among themselves, Who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great."
Luke writes: "And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre." John agrees. No earthquake, no rolling stone. It is a three-to-one vote: Matthew loses. (Or else the other three are wrong.) The event cannot have happened both before and after they arrived.
Another glaring problem is the fact that in Matthew the first post-resurrection appearance of Jesus to the disciples happened on a mountain in Galilee (not in Jerusalem, as most Christians believe), as predicted by the angel sitting on the newly moved rock: "And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him." This must have been of supreme importance, since this was the message of God via the angel(s) at the tomb. Jesus had even predicted this himself sixty hours earlier, during the Last Supper (Matthew 26:32).
After receiving this angelic message, "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." (Matthew 28:16-17) Reading this at face value, and in context, it is clear that Matthew intends this to have been the first appearance. Otherwise, if Jesus had been seen before this time, why did some doubt?
Mark agrees with Matthew's account of the angel's Galilee message, but gives a different story about the first appearance. Luke and John give different angel messages and then radically contradict Matthew. Luke shows the first appearance on the road to Emmaus and then in a room in Jerusalem. John says it happened later than evening in a room, minus Thomas. These angel messages, locations, and travels during the day are impossible to reconcile.
Luke says the post-resurrection appearance happened in Jerusalem, but Matthew says it happened in Galilee, sixty to one hundred miles away! Could they all have traveled 150 miles that day, by foot, trudging up to Galilee for the first appearance, then back to Jerusalem for the evening meal?
Thomas Paine tackled this matter two hundred years ago in The Age of Reason, stumbling across dozens of New Testament discrepancies:
"I lay it down as a position which cannot be controverted," he wrote, "first, that the agreement of all the parts of a story does not prove that story to be true, because the parts may agree and the whole may be false; secondly, that the disagreement of the parts of a story proves the whole cannot be true."
Paine also points out that everything in the bible is hearsay. For example, the message at the tomb (if it happened at all) took this path, at minimum, before it got to our eyes: God, angel(s), Mary, disciples, Gospel writers, copyists, translators. (The Gospels are all anonymous and we have no original versions.) He also was one of the first to point out the simple fact that, "outrageous claims require outrageous proof".
But first things first, Fogle, either tell me exactly what happened on Easter Sunday, or let's leave the Jesus myth buried next to Eastre (Ishtar, Astarte), the pagan Goddess of Spring after whom the Christian holiday was named.
Hahahahahahaahhahahahahhaaaaaa oh my! My sides ache! Hahahah oh dear... Must resist urge to close thread! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by gesteves
Hahahaha :D
To get you started, here are some of the discrepancies that need to be overcome.
What time did the women visit the tomb?
Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)
Who were the women?
Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)
What was their purpose?
Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)
Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)
Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)
John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)
Was the tomb open when they arrived?
Matthew: No (28:2)
Mark: Yes (16:4)
Luke: Yes (24:2)
John: Yes (20:1)
Who was at the tomb when they arrived?
Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
Mark: One young man (16:5)
Luke: Two men (24:4)
John: Two angels (20:12)
Where were these messengers situated?
Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)
What did the messenger(s) say?
Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)
Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)
Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)
John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)
Did the women tell what happened?
Matthew: Yes (28:8)
Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)
Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)
John: Yes (20:18)
When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
John: No (20:2)
When did Mary first see Jesus?
Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)
Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)
John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)
Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?
Matthew: Yes (28:9)
John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)
After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?
Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)
Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)
Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)
John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)
Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)
Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?
Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)
Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)
Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)
John: In a room, at evening (20:19)
Did the disciples believe the two men?
Mark: No (16:13)
Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)
What happened at the appearance?
Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)
Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)
Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)
John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)
Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?
Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday
Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)
Where did the ascension take place?
Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
John: No ascension
Paul: No ascension
Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)
Those are very good points that you bring up about the discrepancies in the Gospels and I don't have the answers off the top of my head. Obviously they are tough questions if it made you quit being a minister(?). (What demonination if I may ask?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue
But while I agree with Thomas Paine's first point ("first, that the agreement of all the parts of a story does not prove that story to be true, because the parts may agree and the whole may be false;") the seond part isn't necessarily true ("secondly, that the disagreement of the parts of a story proves the whole cannot be true").
I have a question: how pissed do you think people would get if I wore this shirt?:
http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a525/a525.gif
*I have family still unaccounted for down in New Orleans. Thanks for the "joke". - gerbick
Very.
XXXXXL - DAMN!
orgyborgy, that's the most tasteless thing I've personally could have seen today.
To the chrisitian kid, do more studying.
Technically Protestant but I used to prefer the Nondenominational label and that challenge actually didn't make me quit being a minister... it was just one of the things that helped me "change gears" so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by orgyborgy
I can still legally perform weddings, etc., I just no longer try to convince myself that the Bible is the unadulterated word of God and that every word should be taken literally.
It's not and they shouldn't.
As for books about spirituality and life philosophy, the Bible is definitely a cornerstone but like every other religious text you have to learn to eat the meat and spit out the bones... and they all have bones.
Btw, if you're wondering where the "Easter Challenge" came from it's from "Losing Faith in Faith" by Dan Barker, a former Preacher turned Atheist.
One last thing, orgyborgy,... not funny. :thumbsdow
thats just wrong, and its coming from me so its gotta be overly disgusting
that would come down to the greek to Eng. translations cuz there are lots of word that are kinda translated a bit wrong.Quote:
One of the first problems I found is in Matthew 28:2, after two women arrived at the tomb: "And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it." (Let's ignore the fact that no other writer mentioned this "great earthquake.") This story says that the stone was rolled away after the women arrived, in their presence.
Yet Mark's Gospel says it happened before the women arrived: "And they said among themselves, Who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great."
Luke writes: "And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre." John agrees. No earthquake, no rolling stone. It is a three-to-one vote: Matthew loses. (Or else the other three are wrong.) The event cannot have happened both before and after they arrived.
im just courious, why is your sig two rolling eye smilies... that seems kinda against jesusisim
Jesus called. He thinks you're too hung up on him.
i'm done here i have better stuff to do then waste my time here with u guys!!
And you're willing to put your whole life into something that could be "kinda translated a bit wrong"?Quote:
Originally Posted by j.manfogle
True story. One time, I misread a sign while in Japan as "Tattoo Parlor"... walked in, and it was a "Taboo Store"... you know. Where they sell whips, chains, ball & gags, cat o' nine tails, other sex toys.
A "kinda" wrong translation can be very wrong at times... ya' think?
jesus was being beaten with sticks and stuff and he didnt give up. you dont deserve to be the next jesus YOUR FIRED!
idk i just put it there cuz it looked cool and i wanted to!! got a problem with that??Quote:
im just courious, why is your sig two rolling eye smilies... that seems kinda against jesusisim
I woulda resurrected on Sunday...I'll resurrect on Wednesday instead. WOOO! You gotta date Wednesday baby! http://booreview.com/images/the_big_lebowski_jesus.jpg
You lose. We win.Quote:
Originally Posted by j.manfogle
Fogle - 0: Everyone else - Victory. Thread close time.
I think he was asking if you actually knew what it stood for.
I'm starting to assume that you do not.
Allow me to explain... when you use the "rolleyes" smiley, it's like saying "whatever, I'm an angry teenager and I'm not listening to you" or "you're rolling your eyes because you have an "whatever" attitude"... or better yet, you're already judging somebody.
Cast the first stone.
true thats why most ppl that want to really get into gods word take a couple years of Greek (old type of Greek not like modern)Quote:
And you're willing to put your whole life into something that could be "kinda translated a bit wrong"?
True story. One time, I misread a sign while in Japan as "Tattoo Parlor"... walked in, and it was a "Taboo Store"... you know. Where they sell whips, chains, ball & gags, cat o' nine tails, other sex toys.
A "kinda" wrong translation can be very wrong at times... ya' think?