I'm Norwegian and I have nothing against Islam

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Originally Posted by indivision

Have muslims not portrayed other religions negatively in any publication?

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they believe in the same prophets, so no they would not be blasphemous of any religion that is "of the book".


I can understand why muslims would get upset at the depiction of muhamed because of the mantra; "I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger”.

However, the prophet banned picture of himself because he believed it would result in idolatry. To me there appears to be an aspect of idolatry in the actions of the protests.

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Originally Posted by swampy

Palestine?

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Palestine isn't a country.

On a different topic, I don't understand why anyone feels the need for apologies. What do they actually accomplish? I mean in this case, you have already had several newspapers and even western governments issue apologies on behalf of those newspapers.

Newhive, your suggestion that western governments apologize by shutting down newspapers and creating a law that prohibits these types of publications is a little absurd to say the least, and shows a general lack of understanding of the concept of free press in democratic societies and what people will do to retain it. It just ain't gonna happen. At the most you will get a public apology that is hollow in the first place, and obviously won't do any good in quelling any protests as we have seen.

The only proper way to apologize according to Muslims is for the West to start stripping down the very foundations of their democracy. And the only response your going to get with demands like that is MORE publications from those countries, so they can demonstrate the free press they have, hence why these cartoons actually were commissioned and reprinted across Europe in the first place.

What I'm trying to say is, you're fighting a losing battle.

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Originally Posted by Visionray

Palestine isn't a country.

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I know, that was my point ;)

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At the time of Prophet Muhammad, people used to mock him on his face, but he never did anything back. He just took it, and continued his work...

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nazimm, there's a big difference between mocking "someone" who's alive and mocking "someone" who's dead.

Mocking a dead prophet even worse, it's a message targeting his followers.

Yes prophet Muhammad (PPBUH) was so merciful to not to return insults WHILE HE WAS ALIVE, ONLY HE has the right to choose between returning insults, or not. That's a right in Islam to every person, eye for eye, but who forgives is better.

I hope you didn't forget the "Taef" scene, where he (PPBUH) was given the option by Allah between destructing the people who severly harmed him (would be done by Gebreel), and to mercy them, and he CHOSE not to destroy them, as he was the most merciful man.

Allah himself gave him that option, but he CHOSE not to, I hope this is obvious.

AND as I said there is a difference between mocking a prophet, a dead prophet and a living one, it's just a message, and should be taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by swampy

I know, that was my point ;)

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oh sorry lol, that one flew over my head.

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Originally Posted by newhive

....Allah himself gave him that option, but he CHOSE not to, I hope this is obvious......

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....and why did he CHOOSE not to? It's a lesson for the whole mankind!

Alive or not alive dude, he's an example...

Trust me, see how this whole boycotting thing is gonna end....I don't wanna argue more....I KNOW my point is stronger than any other posts on this thread and even speaks more than the action taken by every muslim against this whole event...

No more words from me...

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What I'm trying to say is, you're fighting a losing battle.

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At least we'll try.

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....and why did he CHOOSE not to? It's a lesson for the whole mankind!

Alive or not alive dude, he's an example...

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No argue, but it's a lesson too, that Allah at this particular moment OFFERED the 2 options, while knowing before, what will be the answer.
It's another lesson, we shouldn't ignore it.

and therein lies the problem, many muslims take the Koran as the "one truth" without taking into consideration the Hadeeths or Sunnas.

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At least we'll try.

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The more the demonstrations - the more the image of Islam is getting beaten.

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It's a lesson for the whole mankind!

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When the Prophet himself can forgive...Why not his followers ???
It surely is a lesson for all of mankind...that Islam is more about peace than hatred like its making out to be in this case.

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Originally Posted by koolbabs2000

The more the demonstrations - the more the image of Islam is getting beaten.

When the Prophet himself can forgive...Why not his followers ???
It surely is a lesson for all of mankind...that Islam is more about peace than hatred like its making out to be in this case.

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Aah...now what took you so long to post that? I was waiting for soo long...:)

Whoops, I meant, no more words from me......REALLY......

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Aah...now what took you so long to post that? I was waiting for soo long...

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The more we talk about it ... the more it flares up Nizamm...Hope the press stops sensationilising it... for the madness to end...

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Originally Posted by koolbabs2000

The more we talk about it ... the more it flares up Nizamm...Hope the press stops sensationilising it... for the madness to end...

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Woho! Man, I feel like I'm talking to myself....rock on bro! Topic's closed... :)

[QUOTE=newhive]Thank you.

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The appology as I see it is (after the government and the newspaper appology) is to punish the newspaper or even close it, or even better putting a law that prevents it to happen in the future.

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I don't think that will happen, and really you should not expect it to happen.

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I know this may seem odd to you, but not impossible to me. Not because we Muslims are the Untouchables of this universe, no, just as I said because it's is extreamly offensive to our beleives, just as closing a newspaper in a "free" country, or yet more. Also it's a "precedent", and we want it to not to be repeated, ever.

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And by doing this you open up the floodgates for every group, religion, and organization to have "their" piece of legislation to ensure that they are protected from being offended.

This would never stop, why should you get preferential treatment over an issue that in the end is a matter of faith and personal belief?

And equally then, the request should also be made for the Mullahs to stop calling for the death and killing of Jews from your mosques, that is equaly offensive and repugnant to ordinary people.....regardless of what you may think of the Jews.

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One thing to make clear here, I didn't ever said anything about bombings, or terrorism. My opinion is to begin by a large Islamic boycott to Denmark AND who ever publishes these cartoons, along with political pressure, till we get that appology (hopefully a law).

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You got an apology from the editors of the papers in Denmark, how much more of an apology do you need? why do you need an apology from their Government? Why should they apologise to the Muslims for what a paper has printed?

Is it because you want to see them being remorseful? or do you want them to repent in shame?

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Then what would be the meaning of life if "God" just does everything, why all this pain, hate, wars?

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Pain, Hate and War is the making of imperfect man, and only God can and will change it in due course ( What I believe anyway)

That is the point I was trying to make, some things ONLY God can handle, some things we use our intelligence and work out, but only God can exact vengeance when it comes to Sins concerning life and death..not Man.

And if your holy book teaches that you should kill any one who blasphemes, what makes it more superior to the beliefs of others who don't believe this is so?

You see your beliefs are just that,... your beliefs, you can be convinced that your religion is the true way and the only way, but that is what it is, YOUR convictions.

There are many other religious people who are convinced just as equaly, and who have died, and will die for their belief in their God, why should yours be above those?

If your God tells you you can Kill some one for making an image of your prophet, that is your God, not mine, many people do not even believe that there is a God.

So what is an authority to you is not an authority to others, you cannot impose the standards and judgement of your personal beliefs on other people who dont share those convictions.

We don't live in a theocracy, when we do then God will be the ultimate Judge not man

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As I said, I (and Muslims) beleive this life is a test, either you succeed or fail. Allah left us the freedom of choice to live and act in this life with kind guidance like (Tawrah, Engeel(bible), and Qur'an). But didn't left us to do everything either. Somethings Allah himself handles even if that takes time.

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Yes, and God ( Allah) gives us life, and is the ONLY one who can take it away.

iTony

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Originally Posted by koolbabs2000

The more we talk about it ... the more it flares up Nizamm...Hope the press stops sensationilising it... for the madness to end...

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How about hoping people will stop acting like fools over a cartoon. There wouldn't be anything for the press to sensationalize if there weren't embassies being burned down, death threats etc...

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Originally Posted by newhive

I don't have to mention that we Muslims here, are very ok with ringing Church's bells More than 5 times a day, that is happening.

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What..at five in the morning? I don't think so..


iTony

[QUOTE=XU1]

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Originally Posted by newhive

So what is an authority to you is not an authority to others, you cannot impose the standards and judgement of your personal beliefs on other people who dont share those convictions.

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although we are sure as hell trying to do so in Afghanistan and Iraq

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Yes, and God ( Allah) gives us life, and is the ONLY one who can take it away.

iTony

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hmmm, previous posts by yourself over the years seem somewhat contradictory

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Originally Posted by newhive

That's correct.
The full "known" prophets tree, for those who want to know it (Arabic pronounciation), prophets' names are clickable.




We Muslims beleive he (PBUH) is:

http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/


http://www.islamworld.net/Muhammad.in.Bible.html

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Thanks for clarifying the "We" Muslims part.

Because Millions of Christians can see the clear ( as day) application of these scriptures to the Holy Spirit and not to some individual.

iTony

Muslims don't believe in the holy spirit. They believe in Allah.

[QUOTE=swampy][QUOTE=XU1]

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although we are sure as hell trying to do so in Afghanistan and Iraq

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But is it religious...or secular?

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hmmm, previous posts by yourself over the years seem somewhat contradictory

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Read them carefully then, because In the "Tookie" thread I maintained that I believe that only God has the right to take away life.

My argument there was with the value of one life over another, not with "who" had the right to take it, even though the states had had been given that right my means of the majority..:)

iTony

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Originally Posted by swampy

they believe in the same prophets, so no they would not be blasphemous of any religion that is "of the book".

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right. i should have asked "have muslims not offended any group of people in the world?"

[QUOTE=XU1][QUOTE=swampy]

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Originally Posted by XU1

But is it religious...or secular?



Read them carefully then, because In the "Tookie" thread I maintained that I believe that only God has the right to take away life.

My argument there was with the value of one life over another, not with "who" had the right to take it, even though the states had had been given that right my means of the majority..:)

iTony

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I tend not to read anything carefully, it helps to maintain my cantancerous disposition ;)

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Originally Posted by swampy

Muslims don't believe in the holy spirit. They believe in Allah.

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Yes,and Jesus spoke about the Holy Spirit many many times, not as a man but as an active force, that is why I find it strange that they apply a very simple scripture that refers to the Holy Spirit, to prove that Jesus spoke about Muhammad...it's not even technical, or spurious, it's a straight out missaplication.


iTony

[QUOTE=swampy][QUOTE=XU1]

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Originally Posted by swampy

I tend not to read anything carefully, it helps to maintain my cantancerous disposition ;)

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Lol....you are a smart man...;)

iTony

[QUOTE=swampy]

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Originally Posted by XU1

although we are sure as hell trying to do so in Afghanistan and Iraq

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not really. the previous regimes had certainly done so. if what you say is true, women would not be joining the work-force and going to school in Afghanistan and the people wouldn't bother to vote in Iraq.

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Originally Posted by nizamm

Whoops, I meant, no more words from me......REALLY......

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It was good hearing from you nizamm, it sounds like you truly understand your's is a religion of peace. I don't mean to sound condesceding when I say that, as I don't know alot about religion, but I believe all Judeo Christian religions and prophets taught and practiced peace and tolerance and the best way to pay respect to those prophets is to live that way.

[QUOTE=indivision]

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Originally Posted by swampy

not really. the previous regimes had certainly done so. if what you say is true, women would not be joining the work-force and going to school in Afghanistan and the people wouldn't bother to vote in Iraq.

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Whatever way you look at it we are invading sovereign states and killing people in their thousands to impose a belief system on people

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Originally Posted by admedia

It was good hearing from you nizamm, it sounds like you truly understand your's is a religion of peace. I don't mean to sound condesceding when I say that, as I don't know alot about religion, but I believe all Judeo Christian religions and prophets taught and practiced peace and tolerance and the best way to pay respect to those prophets is to live that way.

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two words: Old Testament. It's all smiting and eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

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truly understand your's is a religion of peace

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Peace falls to pieces in the hands of some clerics, priests, mullahs,etc - the so called Defenders of the faith... Men should rise above these people and use commonsense.

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I believe all Judeo Christian religions and prophets taught and practiced peace and tolerance

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I agree with you admedia... Here again the Defenders turn Offenders and give a new dimension to things.

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Originally Posted by swampy

two words: Old Testament. It's all smiting and eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

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I am no bible scholar, but I think there is more in there besides smiting and eye for an eye... while I know there are very violent stories I think the most important lessons that can be gleaned from it are lessons of living a moral and peaceful life through following Gods commandments.

[QUOTE=swampy]

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Originally Posted by indivision

Whatever way you look at it we are invading sovereign states and killing people in their thousands to impose a belief system on people

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a governing system is not a belief system. in my view, it hardly makes sense to call the replacement of an oppressive government an imposition.

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Originally Posted by swampy

two words: Old Testament. It's all smiting and eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

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Yes, but that was only to Jews, what many people forget ( some conveniently...not you swampy ) is that All the laws of the Old Testament were only given to the Ancient Israelites, not to Christians, The Mosaic Laws were done away with ( according to the Christian Scriptures ) and Jesus instituted a new covenant not in written laws ( Like the Ten Commandaments), but in spiritual principles.

iTony

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Originally Posted by newhive

They claimed (as far as I know) that (6 millions?) jews were burnt somewhere in Germany in the holocost, What was the number of jews in the whole world then?

I won't argue with that, because I have little information about it

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Finally, the Holocaust deniers are very selective in the sources they choose; other sources give very different figures for the Jewish population before and after the war. For example, the 1932 American Jewish yearbook estimate the total number of Jews in the world at 15,192,218, of whom 9,418,248 resided in Europe. However, the 1947 yearbook states: "Estimates of the world Jewish population have been assembled by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (except for the United States and Canada) and are probably the most authentic available at the present time. The figures reveal that the total Jewish population of the world has decreased by one-third from about 16,600,000 in 1939 to about 11,000,000 in 1946 as the result of the annihilation by the Nazis of more than five and a half million European Jews. In Europe only an estimated 3,642,000 remain of the total Jewish pre-war population of approximately 9,740,000."

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There is plenty of good information online.

its staggering to read those numbers... every time.

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and therein lies the problem, many muslims take the Koran as the "one truth" without taking into consideration the Hadeeths or Sunnas.

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the "Taef" thing is in Sunnah not in the Qur'an.

Try reading more carefully, please.

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Originally Posted by newhive

the "Taef" thing is in Sunnah not in the Qur'an.

Try reading more carefully, please.

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erm, that was exactly my point I was AGREEING with you. sorry about that, I shall disagree with you in future if it makes you feel better.

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Originally Posted by indivision

its staggering to read those numbers... every time.

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Yes, I believe the total number of people is around 11,000,000.

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Neighboring Poland - The First Target: "All Poles will disappear from the world.... It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles." Heinrich Himmler

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Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Christians and Catholics. Most of the remaining mortal victims were from other countries including Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Holland, France and even Germany.

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Just think it's always important to always point out the other 5 million non-jewish people that were also exterminated. This was not just a crime against Jews.

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And if your holy book teaches that you should kill any one who blasphemes

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who said so?

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So what is an authority to you is not an authority to others, you cannot impose the standards and judgement of your personal beliefs on other people who dont share those convictions.

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I'm not trynig to impose anything to anybody, I just request to be treated as Human. Someone here talked about "I have the right to be insulted", who gave you that right? I don't want that right. Is it a "right"?

What's right to me is to fight back who ever fights me, if anyone insulted me I have the option of returning back or forgiving.

You understand it that way, good, you don't, your problem.

And don't try to tell thing I clarified earlier it's NOT Islamic, like killing, bombing, terrorism. I just talked about boycott.

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Yes, and God ( Allah) gives us life, and is the ONLY one who can take it away.

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True, but when someone holds a gun to a brain of another and shoot (without having any right to), the other one dies (meaning Allah takes his soul). And that's what bothers.

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What..at five in the morning? I don't think so..

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It does happen, you're just far to see it.

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Muslims don't believe in the holy spirit. They believe in Allah.

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We do beleive he exists, and is the messenger from Allah to the prophets with revelation. Actually his the one I referred to as "Gebreel" earlier.

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erm, that was exactly my point I was AGREEING with you. sorry about that, I shall disagree with you in future if it makes you feel better.

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Sorry I got that wrong.

the holy spirit is not equateable to Gebreel - It is part of the holy trinity, along with Jesus - the son of God and God. Christians (most notably catholics) believe that each are integral and worthy of worship.

This runs contrary to what the Koran teaches in that there is one god: Allah. Mohamed dispelled the notion of a son of God and a Holy spirity as a sign that other people "of the book" had lost their way.

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Originally Posted by newhive

And don't try to tell thing I clarified earlier it's NOT Islamic, like killing, bombing, terrorism. I just talked about boycott.

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So then as a Muslim, you condemn the actions of your Muslim brothers and leaders who do carry out and condone such actions in the name of your religion?

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Originally Posted by admedia

So then as a Muslim, you condemn the actions of your Muslim brothers and leaders who do carry out and condone such actions in the name of your religion?

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The leader of my country is a devout christian, does that mean that the invasion of countries sanctioned by him is a direct reflection upon Christianity?