A different Point of View

I just want to say, I am greatly sorry for all those who have lost loved ones, died, etc. (I've said it a million tiems before =/), however I want to add something, did the US have it coming for them? I recently saw posts about allthe good things the US had done, even though normally they should have had NOTHING to do with it. So what was their motivation? For example: Palestinians and Jews... why did the US have to go in and help out the Jews? Why? Because they wanted to take advantage of that war. Don't they realize that they should mind they're own business? What good is it that they help the Jews?

For this same reason, that's why some palestinians were celebrating.

There are NUMEROUS examples of this. If anyone wants me to clarify, please say so.

Later,
Somar!

... And on the other hand ... <wiggling hand> ... You have different fingers ...

:D

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Originally posted by Somar
I just want to say, I am greatly sorry for all those who have lost loved ones, died, etc. (I've said it a million tiems before =/), however I want to add something, did the US have it coming for them? I recently saw posts about allthe good things the US had done, even though normally they should have had NOTHING to do with it. So what was their motivation? For example: Palestinians and Jews... why did the US have to go in and help out the Jews? Why? Because they wanted to take advantage of that war. Don't they realize that they should mind they're own business? What good is it that they help the Jews?

For this same reason, that's why some palestinians were celebrating.

There are NUMEROUS examples of this. If anyone wants me to clarify, please say so.

Later,
Somar!

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You know, if both sides would just realize that God will love them no matter what land they owned, and who gets to sit upon the capital, then everyone would be cool just sittin in the street eatting coffe cake instead of throwing rcks at Tanks.


What good is it to help Jews?


Better question.


What good is it to attack them?


I think we should just back out of there and let both countries kill each other, I mean this **** is getting old.


Now back to my malicious attempt to take over thread with usless but funny stuff....



wait..someone called me GRANDPA in another thread...why I outta.... Come'er you little monkey...




D

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Originally posted by Dzine
... And on the other hand ... <wiggling hand> ... You have different fingers ...

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I have no idea what that meant! Bear with me though! I'm 13!! Care to elaborate?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dzine
What good is it to help Jews?


Better question.


What good is it to attack them?

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Ah man.. you made that sound A LOT worst than it was ;). Helping people is fine by me, but taking sides isn't. All I'm saying is that:

It's a lot worst to help one by killing another, than to just leave the two alone to resolve their differences.
The US should just mind it's own business.

Is there anything unreasonible about that?

Later,
Somar!

These are excerpts from the Official PLO Charter that I pulled from a web page in Jordan http://www.mideastweb.org/about.htm:

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Article 8: The phase in their history, through which the Palestinian people are now living, is that of national (watani) struggle for the liberation of Palestine. Thus the conflicts among the Palestinian national forces are secondary, and should be ended for the sake of the basic conflict that exists between the forces of Zionism and of imperialism on the one hand, and the Palestinian Arab people on the other. On this basis the Palestinian masses, regardless of whether they are residing in the national homeland or in diaspora (mahajir) constitute - both their organizations and the individuals - one national front working for the retrieval of Palestine and its liberation through armed struggle.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

Article 10: Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory.

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization.

Article 22: Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland.

Article 23: The demand of security and peace, as well as the demand of right and justice, require all states to consider Zionism an illegitimate movement, to outlaw its existence, and to ban its operations, in order that friendly relations among peoples may be preserved, and the loyalty of citizens to their respective homelands safeguarded.

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Now typically the english version of this document is certian phrases are watered down such as Liquidate versus exterminate. The zionist movement is typically known as Isreal and the jewish peoples.

Now- Should the US stop the Liquidation of the Jews in the middle east and prevent the destruction of the Jewish Homeland? Absoulutly.

Jonnie is there any subject in the world that you can pull 3 freakin ages of data on that I wont read?


:D


D

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Originally posted by Dzine
Jonnie is there any subject in the world that you can pull 3 freakin ages of data on that I wont read?


:D


D

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sorry man :D

I tried to cut it down for people- The last time I posted the entire PLO Charter and it was quite lengthy- in another thread I posted the entirety of Federalist #10-

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Originally posted by Somar
It's a lot worst to help one by killing another, than to just leave the two alone to resolve their differences.

Later,
Somar! [/B]

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(I've never quoted myself before ;))

You're talking specifics, I generalized it after. But anyways:

You're saying that the Jews are completely innocent. Well I have no facts on this but all logic tells me that if the Jews weren't to have retaliated AT ALL then the palestinians would have taken over a logn time ago.

Later,
Somar!

Quote:

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Originally posted by Somar

Quote:

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Originally posted by Somar
It's a lot worst to help one by killing another, than to just leave the two alone to resolve their differences.

Later,
Somar!

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(I've never quoted myself before ;))

You're talking specifics, I generalized it after. But anyways:

You're saying that the Jews are completely innocent. Well I have no facts on this but all logic tells me that if the Jews weren't to have retaliated AT ALL then the palestinians would have taken over a logn time ago.

Later,
Somar! [/B]

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retaliated

doesnt that word mean they acted after being acted upon?


I dont know much about whats going on over there and never will because Its been going on for so long its like a broken record.

Im just wondering why people dont see that having a war in the name of god is about the most hypocritical thing i have ever seen.






D

Bad choice of words =P

Later,
Somar!

Quote:

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Originally posted by Somar

Quote:

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Originally posted by Somar
It's a lot worst to help one by killing another, than to just leave the two alone to resolve their differences.

Later,
Somar!

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(I've never quoted myself before ;))

You're talking specifics, I generalized it after. But anyways:

You're saying that the Jews are completely innocent. Well I have no facts on this but all logic tells me that if the Jews weren't to have retaliated AT ALL then the palestinians would have taken over a logn time ago.

Later,
Somar! [/B]

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I absoulutly do not think the Isreali are innocent, in fact I do not condone their actions today- But there goal is not the destruction of any country or peoples but only to exist.

The PLO charter asserts that we should ignore:

A. Historical and religous refrence to the Jewish people- regardless of the fact that their is a defiante Yiddish people and culture, A common Language, Historical artifacts from the past, A written history of the peoples, and a common religion among them.

B. That the Ottaman empire sided with Germanny in WWI. Part of the reperamtions were losss of land.

C. That the land in question was unusable until Britian allowed the Jewsish people into it and they lost many numerous lives draining the then useless swamps to malaria.

D. The Area in question did not have many natives and had not been dedicated as any paticular races Homeland for more than 300 years.

E. Besides people of Jewish religions there are also people of Arabic decent living in Isreal and fight alongside them.

The PLO aims to "liquidate" the zionist movement. This is what it means to liquidate an entire race-

*Warning these links contain Graphic and depections of both the Nazi and Stalin attempts to Liquidate the Jewish peoples.
[Images removed at the requst of David P]

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust

http://www.eilatgordinlevitan.com/vo.../volozhin.html

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/people/LIBERAT2.htm

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/vv.html


The Jews did not initially start retaliating- in 1948 they lost 1% of their population fighting of an invasion of just about every mouslim country. in the 60's Jordan, Egypt, and others attacked them again. Then in again in the 70's. After the last failed invasion was when the PLO started acts of terrorism- in fact its an ammedment to the PLO charter that they wage a war of terror against Isreal, being unable to elimnate it through force.

It is also interesting to point out there several thousand Mouslims live peacfully inside of Isreal and are quite happy about it.

You ask why the US steps in- they step in to stop the atrocites that happened in those pictures. Any civilized person would not advocate the genoicide of another race.

Yes, the US should be involved if not just to prevent Isreal from using its nuclear arsenol on its surrounding neighbors which I have little doubt they would used if unilaterally attacked again, especially after the recent acts of Sharone today.
[Edited by johnie on 09-16-2001 at 04:18 AM]

Dude ~ can we save the picture book for another time :eek:

:)

Those are all Holocaust pictures correct?

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Originally posted by Somar
Those are all Holocaust pictures correct?

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Those are pictures of one race trying to Liquidate another Race.

They are a mixture pictures of the Hitler and Stalin attempts to liquidate the Jews. An estimated 3,500,000 Jews were Liquidated by the Nazis and another estimated 6 Million were killed by Stalin. These are not the truley horrific images- but are rather the more mild ones.

It is the responsibility of the world community to prevent anything like this from happening again. That is why the US intervines in the middle east. We don't just intervine for Isreal- we are also protecting a group of Shiate's from the Iraqi regieme. This is also why we interviened in Bosnia- on the side of the Islamic Bosnians.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Somar
Those are all Holocaust pictures correct?

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Yeah. I'm pretty sure they are.

*sigh*
I'll give you guys better examples tomorrow.

It's 4 AM.
Good Night!

Later,
Somar!

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Originally posted by johnie

Quote:

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Originally posted by Somar
Those are all Holocaust pictures correct?

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Those are pictures of one race trying to Liquidate another Race.

They are a mixture pictures of the Hitler and Stalin attempts to liquidate the Jews. An estimated 3,500,000 Jews were Liquidated by the Nazis and another estimated 6 Million were killed by Stalin. These are not the truley horrific images- but are rather the more mild ones.

It is the responsibility of the world community to prevent anything like this from happening again. That is why the US intervines in the middle east. We don't just intervine for Isreal- we are also protecting a group of Shiate's from the Iraqi regieme. This is also why we interviened in Bosnia- on the side of the Islamic Bosnians.

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johnie,
can you check your email please.
david p.

Those pics are a bit OTT for a G rated board aren't they? I assume this will be what you've mailed about David?

does anyone ever learn anything from history

partition = conflict = freedom fighters = terrorists = state sponsored terrorism


let those who have not sinned cast the first stone


pre 1947 palestine, post 1947 israel, pre 1947 iraq, post 1947 kuwait, see earlier paragraph

having captured land in a war does not entitle you to give it to your friends, no matter what kind of condition it is in. don't be surprised when the dispossesed strike back.

this creates people who fight for their rights, and are seen in their own communities as freedom fighters. because they are not a legislated army, and use guerilla tactics the oppressor calls them terrorists to criminalise them.

as the oppressor can't win against these tactics using normal millitary means, they too resort to guerilla war and sponsor those who will fight the terrorists using such tactics.

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

you will not change these beleifs with the bomb, people who are dispossesed, impoverished and dehumanised by your will, will in time strike back.

the two superpowers that created these states at the end of ww2 are the two that are puffing their chests out furthest at the moment with the talk of war and revenge.

catch yourselves on, remove the causes of conflict and watch the dust settle, in peace.


giving a "spiritual homeland" to a religion that you feel endebted to or sorry for, or guaranteeing that you have a permanant tap in the oilfields, and shoring up these "countries" by the use of your force and your military power will come at a cost, as we have all seen

please lobby your politicians to get them to find the peacefull way out of this mess, remove the causes of the conflict, don't anihillate the symptoms

i only hope that peace is tried as an option and suceeds before mr bush and mr blair get another city attacked as a result of their intransigence.

interesting that these terrorists don't want to take over the US, they just want to be left to their own devices, in thier own lands, without state imposed terror.

or maybe i missed the whole point

finally, lets find out who did this and bring them to justice, not go out and bomb or invade another country, who among us has the arrogance needed to tell the mother of a dead middle eastern ( afghan?) child that we needed to kill her child in an attempt to murder someone else?



peace and love



starchie


[Edited by starchie on 09-17-2001 at 09:23 AM]

Quote:

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Originally posted by jamble7000
Those pics are a bit OTT for a G rated board aren't they? I assume this will be what you've mailed about David?

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Thats between david and Jonnie ;)


D

Starchie: I agree with you. But this thread was about 'Why it happened' not 'What will happen now', although you're opinions are well thought out.

Later,
Somar!

It is a myth that the US and Britian took land from the Palestinians and gave it to the Jewish people. The Jews were located in this pre 1880. What the British did in 1947 with the Balfour decree was to split this area into an Arab and Jewish state in the intrest of keeping peace- as the two were fighting. Nobody dispossed anyone of any land. To remove isreal would do exactly what you suggest the US did- which they didn't becuase it weas the UN who made this decree.

now:

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Thanks be to Allah. It is hard for one to understand if the person does not understand Islam. In our religion we believe that Allah created us to worship him. Allah is the one who created us and blessed us with this religion, and orders us to carry out the holy struggle “jihad” to raise the word of Allah above the words of the unbelievers.


We are sure of Allah’s victory and our victory against the Americans and the Jews as promised by the prophet peace be up on him: “Judgment day shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews, whereas the Jews will hide behind trees and stones, and the tree and the stone will speak and say ‘Muslim, behind me a Jew come and kill him’, except for the al-Ghargad tree, which is a Jewish plant.”

As we mentioned before, Allah ordered us in this religion to purify Muslim land of all non-believers, and especially the Arabian Peninsula where the Ke’ba is.

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These are selected quotes taken from an interview with Bin Ladin- They are his direct words. Bin Ladin blames the US for "corupting" its women, corupting the Saudi royal family, Stealing Saudi Oil, and for desecrating the Holiest of lands. He also wants to kill all the Shiate's and Serif's. The guy is crazy- and are doing this out of irational hate and fanaticisim. In fact his statements sound surprisingly like Hitlers-

Here is something I pulled from another thread:

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The American President and his Plutocratic clique have mocked us as the Have-nots: that is true, but the Have-nots will see to it that they are not robbed of the little they have.

The cause of this situation lies in the impossible Frontiers laid down by the [treaty] and the inhuman treatment of the... minorities.

All this is not surprising if one bears in mind that the men he had called to support him, or rather, the men who had called him, belonged to the Jewish element...

[The U.S. President] was fully aware of the danger threatening the card castle of his economic system with collapse, and that he was therefore urgently in need of a diversion in foreign policy. He was strengthened in this resolve by the Jews around him.

Thus began the increasing efforts of the American President to create conflicts, to do everything to prevent conflicts from being peacefully solved.

In public, he was hypocritically pretending to be for peace; but at the same time he was threatening any country ready to pursue a policy of peaceful understanding with the freezing of assets, with economic reprisals, with demands for the repayment of loans, etc... It was a clumsy combination of geographical and political ignorance and of the arrogance of the millionaire circles around him.

But now he is seized with fear that if peace is brought about... his squandering of billions of money or armaments will be looked upon (as plain fraud), since nobody will attack America-and he then himself must provoke this attack upon his country.

First he incites war then falsifies the causes, then odiously wraps himself in a cloak of Christian hypocrisy and slowly but surely leads mankind to war, not without calling God to witness the honesty of his attack-in the approved manner of an old Freemason. I think you have all found it a relief that now, at last, one State has been the first to take the step of protest against his historically unique and shame less ill-treatment of truth, and of right-which protest this man has desired and about which he cannot complain.

The President of the U.S.A. ought finally to understand-I say this only because of his limited intellect-that we know that the aim of this struggle is to destroy one State after another.

As a consequence of the further extension of [the U.S. President's] policy, which is aimed at unrestricted world domination and dictatorship the U.S.A. together with England have not hesitated from using any means to dispute the... nations to the basis of their natural existence.

The Governments of the U.S.A. and of England have therefore resisted, not only now but also for all time, every just understanding meant to bring about a better New Order in the world. Since the beginning of the war the American President has been guilty of a series of the worst crimes against international law.

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These are selections from Hilter's address to the Reichstag, December 11, 1941

Compare it to the PLO charter and the quotes from Bin Laudin's interview. They sound remarkably the same don't they.

To top it off this article, published in the Dailey News brings up many interesting points:

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© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com
I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting spurred by disputes over the Temple Mount.
Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I told you so." But I can't resist any longer. I feel compelled to remind you of the column I wrote just a couple weeks before the latest uprising. Yeah, folks, I predicted it. That's OK. Hold your applause.
After all, I wish I had been wrong. More than 80 people have been killed since the current fighting in and around Jerusalem began. And for what?
If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple, right?
Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing.
Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland?
"Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem."
That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war.
The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.
Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.
There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.
But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.
What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem.
Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct.
I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites."
Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem.
So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.
The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism?
So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem? Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only lead to more chaos. Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name.

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Their argument that this is a reaction to US policy does not stand. The WTC was not a military target and in fact there were many Non-Americans in the tower who also lost their lives. Then again this is their MO isn't it? In Narobi they killed 200 people to kill 9 US citizens.

The US has intervined in the last 10 years in these areas becuase they are trying to prevent the same autrocities that happened in Nazi Germany. Not as a war against Islam or the Arabic peoples.


[Edited by johnie on 09-17-2001 at 06:21 PM]