Some 2advanced Criticism

I've been looking at and studying Eric Jordan's work for quite some time and I used to think it was amazing. But i've come to realize that his entire portfolio is filled with nothing but flashy animations and terrific "tricks" and techniques. Graphic/web design is not just about aesthetics and creating visually interesting layouts. Every intro to a web site he has made looks exactly alike. You can always tell that he created it. Now this may be a good thing because of his "signature" but they all communicate the same thing. They all scream out "futuristic" and "fast-paced" Do you really think that LasikPlus - a site for eye surgery, needed a fast-paced in your face intro? This communicates to the viewer something totally different. Even the BankGothic typeface he uses on almost everything he creates. This tells me "futuristic" and "technical" Why is he using this on a web site for a dance club?

Graphic design is about communicating visually. He has very flashy visuals, but his designs lack communication. A layout needs a voice, just like a person. Everyone has their own unique voice to identify them. Every one of his designs has the exact same voice as each other. A good designer wont give the same voice to a dance club and a digital media company.

And what is with the "hexagons"? Why does it seem like every designer now is using these hexagons as a design device. What do they tell the viewer about the product or service? Absolutely nothing, they simply get in the way of the message thats trying to be conveyed. I noticed alot of Eric Jordans designs use these meaningless graphics and animated lines. I always think that simplicity is the best way to go. You're trying to tell the viewer something, so why put all this excess junk in there, it will only confuse the person. Think of the IPOD advertisement for Apple computers. A picture of the product with one simple line of text: "1,000 songs in your pocket" This right here is an excellent example of great communication design. No clutter, no bull**** - the message (signal) is sent straight to the viewer and they get it right away. None of that futuristic bull****.

I do think Eric Jordan is a great designer and he knows how to work a computer, but i dont think his work is as great as you make it out to be. Nobody is looking at the big picture. Does it sell? Does it help the company? Flashy design is nothing but something fun to look at.

hmmm, i should really move this to the design and graphics forum, but i will see how it develops. Keep it real people ;)

please contribute with intelligent opinion rather than '2a suck'/'rule' to avoid your post's deletion :P


eric's forte is definitely in motion and the effective use of it, his site designs are good but i have to agree that they don't communicate well.

I can understand why a laser eye surgery site would want something fast paced and futuristic, it's cosmetic surgery... but i would also look at that site and say it's design doesn't tell me a damn thing about the companyor the product i am looking at. All the elements of the design are there but they're not held together by the function of the site or the 'voice' the company should be looking to get across. It's just not heard.

Whether his sites are too fussy is an aesthetic opinion (i think the actual 2a site works just fine)... i tend to think simpler is better though and your example of the apple ad is a good one, but it's possible to find a fussier looking design work that gets its message across just as effectively, i think the real point is that the apple ad works for it's purpose and a lot of 2advanced sites just don't.

eric jordan's work is one note, i mean it's a hell of a note, but i don't think it works over and over again, you can't help thinking that he is either being pressed into reworking the same design regardless of purpose and function by clients wanting that 'look', or maybe he is disregarding the basic purpose of design... but that seems so harsh coming from me, someone who would give his left thumb for such skills.

easier a critic to be i guess. Good points though, i absolutely agree that as working designs 2advanced's portfolio fall short of succeeding.

"Graphic/web design is not just about aesthetics and creating visually interesting layouts."

Umm.. yes it is.

I would say futuristic is what people want now days.
The clients more than likely ask him for that.

To be honest, I'm into the futuristic style.
But I have to respect your opinions.
[Edited by gasbag15 on 03-10-2002 at 11:53 PM]

I can see what you are saying but just beacuse a person sticks with one style doesn't mean that they can't make other types of work. Maybe he just enjoys working with the 'fast paced in your face ' style.

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Originally posted by gasbag15
"Graphic/web design is not just about aesthetics and creating visually interesting layouts."

Umm.. yes it is.

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but it's not, it's partly about that but it's certainly not all about that.

the point of any design is to communicate a message not an aesthetic. A 'look' or a 'style' is a means of design not the end.

You have to be kidding me if you think graphic design is solely about visually interesting design. we like to call it "communications design" - notice how the word communications is longer than the word design, and how it comes BEFORE the word design. This is because it is most important. A futuristic layout means absolutely nothing if its not for a "futuristic" type of company. You say that futuristic style of design is most popular nowadays? Well if a designer uses that style on a web site for a product or service that isnt futuristic in any way, shape or form than they are wrong. So what if something looks cool, it really isnt helping the company out in any way. what helps the company send a message is, clarity, visual flow of information, a hierarchy of type, most importantly a voice, and after all of that is taken care of, then you can incorporate the aesthetics of the piece.

Im just so sick about hearing how everyone thinks that 2advanced is so amazing. In a sense it is because of the flash animation, but as a graphic designer I really feel that eric jordan needs to improve on his communication skills. What he really is, is an artist expressing his futuristc designs and animations. Certainly not a designer from what i can see

--- form follows function ---


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...that's like saying "oh sony's not that good cuz they only make slick devices...why don't they make bulky multi colored devices?"

that is there style, and if people want cool looking tv's or notebooks then they will like sony

the reason 2advanced sticks to the futuristic style is because thats what they are into, that's what they like!

if you don't want a futuristic style then don't go to them.
if you do want a futuristic style then go to 2advanced because they are awesome!

after reading your post, i just felt like you were jealous or something.

i'm sorry :P
i just don't agree with you at all :(

i'm into the futuristic style

if someone forced me to do a site with a "gothic orange" style, it would suck! cuz that's not what i'm into, i don't like that kind of thing... get it?

the reason 2 advanced is cool is becasue they make awesome futuristic sites,

i think its wrong to say, they are only great if they can do a lot of other styles as well.

what do you think of all this rambling? do you agree? or do you hate me? lol

... and i also have to say that if you have a client that asks for a futuristic web site, and lets just say they are a company that sells food products for example, it is your responsibility as a great designer to tell them that this wont work in selling their products. Many people always do what the clients ask for. But the great designers will tell them that the web site they are asking for has no meaning and the wrong voice coming from a food company. You will notice that if that web site is made with a futuristic look, it will seem oddly out of place and unprofessional

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Originally posted by ziad10
...that's like saying "oh sony's not that good cuz they only make slick devices...why don't they make bulky multi colored devices?"

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but the point there is that the futuristic style is appropriate and the design of the devices is functional. In my opinion the 2advanced site is fine, it expresses and communicates what they want it to perfectly, but i also think that most of their portfolio sites favour form over function.

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Originally posted by ziad10
...that is their style, and if people want cool looking tv's or notebooks then they will like sony

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yes but they wouldn't like the sonys if they were hard to operate and not advanced pieces of technology.

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Originally posted by ziad10
i think its wrong to say, they are only great if they can do a lot of other styles as well.

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style is one thing but it is not the same as design! A futuristic style is great if the design of the work is appropriate and fulfills the function of the site...

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Originally posted by ziad10
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what do you think of all this rambling? do you agree? or do you hate me? lol

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lol! everyone is entitled to their opinion i just think you're missing the point slightly. It's not about whether the 2advanced 'style' is good or not, it's about whether the way this style is applied is good design....

yeah sorry i kinda went off on something else huh?
me=bad
lol

:P

space ghost is on soon!!

I think the LasikPlus site works kinda fine, thinking how many visitors they get every day. I think that without eric jordan the visits would be something like 3-5 times less then nowdays.

So many times designers tells me that I should find my own style and stick on it. Why on earth?? I have never done 2 sites with same style and I think I have worked right. It seems that nowdays ppl have started to think the same way. I really love Eric's work but I think that he should try some other styles too. Working with same style over and over again is kinda boring, I think.

I agree with you frreestyle!!
I been doing design for more than 6 years and as a graphic designer I can tell you that design = creativity. I think eric jordan is a very good "flasher", don't count on me to say one of the best flasher out there, the 2advanced site is great but in terms of new concepts and new designsI can tell you that they have a lot to learn. All the sites they have done look the same.But the reason why I am writing all this is to ask you not to praise 2advanced that much ....this is not jealousy MR.ziad10 this is to open your eyes, I can imagine you behind your PC trying to copy the 2 advanced site and saying "I'm into futuristic style". Try to be creative man look around you there is much better.
And will end all this by saying futuristic style itself is divided into various parts ex, xeofreestyle.com digitzero.com so 2advanced does not equal to futuristic style, it is a good concept but now those guys a designing website as if they are doing MacDonalds burger's, add some cheese here, a double burger there, spicy one over here .....try some noodle guys may be it will help.
Remember this is not jealously but common sense.
So long

I totally agree with you frreestyle. Just out of curiousity though what sites out there do follow your theory of "communication design" as you so eliquently put it.

I'm completely on your side. I to believe that simplicity is far more greatly than complexity. Makes how different impression when you get to the point than beat around the bush.............

I think his complexity is what keeps him noticed. His sites are well thought out and the look is what people want. Clients have say over what the design should reflect and they obviously want his style. Yes he should explore more but his way of animating should follow. Nothing is wrong with trading up circle or square for a hexagon.. haha

Anyways it's not our job to tell how one designer from New York should work, or is it? So after better thinking I would say that this treath is pointless. :\

hmmm...
It seems like cool site thread is infected by a 2advanced disease. Criticism and admiration is everywhere.
[Edited by Damaso on 03-11-2002 at 02:21 PM]

im not criticizing his work because i think he should work differently. im only stating these things because I noticed that just about everyone who posts messages on these boards praise 2advanced. I think its time that someone had to come out and say, hey this guy's work isn't as great as you make it out to be. most people seem to think that graphic/web design is about cool looking web sites. Even the awards that flashkit.com give out in the featured section: there are a lot of cases where they're giving these things out to web sites that just look cool. And this may be because flashkit.com is about cool uses of flash. So in that case there might not be anything wrong with it, but i would love to be there when eric jordan meets with these clients and tells them "i think im gonna throw in some hexagons and circles and squares because it looks interesting and people like it" this isnt helping the company out.

There are a lot of web sites posted in the featured section that when I click the link to go to the site, at first glance I have no idea what this site is supposed to be about. I would have to click on the "profile" section to see what im really looking at. This a good example of bad design. When you visit a web page, you should be able to recognize the voice of the company and know what you're looking at right away, unless the intent was to confuse the viewer to get them to dig deeper - but thats a whole different ball game.

You know what would really be a good idea frreestyle why dont you create a site of your own in which you can show inspiring graphic designers whats the real deal.

i think that would get your point across much better than blasting off on someone else work.....

Note to say that i dont agree with you ......i really dont see why people praise this cat like he's a god or something, there are a lot of website out there that are 3x better than his and yet no one talks about them.....

anyhow to make a long story short try developing a website which promotes your ideas and visions. And maybe have a section in which inspiring artist can go to get some ideas on developing a well rounded website like the one you have created............

does that make more sense..???

O i definitely will eventually create some sites to show you, i wish i had the time to do it now. But im in the process of learning communications design and studying web design on the side. im a student at a design program in syracuse university in New York. But i do think we will be creating web sites next year for our senior portfolios. Im also looking into doing some work over the summer.

But i do want to let you know that i didnt post these remarks because i think im better. this has nothing to do with me. Im simply taking what i've learned and comparing it to other sites that people call amazing. I want to let you know that just because a majority claims something is incredible, this is not always the case.

i think that is great that you are studying in communication design......im working my way to get back to school to study in a similar field........

I do agree with you 100%.......no doubt.......

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Originally posted by jacci
I think the LasikPlus site works kinda fine, thinking how many visitors they get every day. I think that without eric jordan the visits would be something like 3-5 times less then nowdays.

So many times designers tells me that I should find my own style and stick on it. Why on earth?? I have never done 2 sites with same style and I think I have worked right. It seems that nowdays ppl have started to think the same way. I really love Eric's work but I think that he should try some other styles too. Working with same style over and over again is kinda boring, I think.

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Originally posted by frreestyle
Im just so sick about hearing how everyone thinks that 2advanced is so amazing. In a sense it is because of the flash animation, but as a graphic designer I really feel that eric jordan needs to improve on his communication skills. What he really is, is an artist expressing his futuristc designs and animations. Certainly not a designer from what i can see

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Personally, when I say 2advanced is a great site, that's exactly what I mean. It's a great site. I'm not sure if you're picking and choosing certain posts when you say this but I don't remember seeing people saying Eric Jordan has great communication skills. I never have. I couldn't have even told you who designed 2advanced until now.

I've read somewhere that a graphic designer should create something that grabs your attention and communicates the intended message. 2advanced.com does that. So he was very successful with that site. That's the site I praise. That's the site I see influencing and being ripped.

If you say his portfolio is repetitive then maybe it is. I would make sure you know why it is like that before you make assumptions. Clients suck but it's THEIR site. You do the best you can with what you have. I'm embarassed by what my clients have forced me to do. I also know that when I do something cool on one site and the next new clients sees it, he wants his like that. I'd assume his site - 2advanced - attracts most of his clients. You're judging his abilities based on the sites he builds to make his clients happy. It's business. He's trying to make money, not impress you with his range. How do you think the proposal meeting would go when a client is drawn in on 2advanced and he shows up with something organic using earthtones? The client is always right or he's somebody else's client.

2advanced is great. The person who designed that site designed a great site. If I wanted a site like that I would go to him.

Ok, I admit my answer was alittle hasty and partially incorrect..
But I believe design is definatly part of creating eye pleasing "Designs".
You can't just communicate through bad design.
(It makes sense to me :D)

I figure I might as well put in my two cents as well. Look at the works of Monet, Van Gogh, Rembrandt, etc, these are all classic artists that found their respective styles and stuck with them. There are many that like their works, as well as many that don't, nevertheless they will be criticized forever.
Now I am in no way comparing Eric Jordan to these artists, but he has found his style, and it works for him, his medium happens to be Flash. People ask why everything is compared to him, and the reason is that he is good at what he does. His work is not exactly my style, but as an artist I can recognize his skills.
So I say let the criticism continue, it is what makes art so compelling. If you do not like his work, stop going to his site. Does his style work? Yes, look at some of his clients (Vulcan)! He is probably kicking back in his leather easy chair counting the dough and laughing his ass off at all of us in these forums wasting time talking about him, when we should be developing our own styles.

jjski nailed it. Read the above post and move on.

u dont understand, there is a difference between having your own style or signature and giving a web site a voice. If you're talking about the masters, than take van gogh for instance - his STYLE is impressionism, his use of short brush strokes to depict a mood, he uses this style to depict not just 1 but MANY moods. Eric jordan has a style and that is "futuristic" "technical" "busy" and "fast paced" - you can only use this style for clients with a company that can be described with those buzz words.

he has an E-flyer in one of his sections about something called factor - i have no idea what this is supposed to be, if you want a good example of something that lacks a voice, then check that out in his portfolio. A good designer will make the layout in a way that when it is viewed, you know exactly what the message is within 2 seconds. Can you honestly tell me what this is supposed to be in 2 seconds?

-- im not trying to be mean or harsh or anything, i think eric jordan is incredible at using flash, i just want to let you all know that design isnt about amazing visuals --

hey freestyle why don't you show us some of your work?

i would listen to you if you could do what "2advanced isn't"

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Originally posted by frreestyle
Eric jordan has a style and that is "futuristic" "technical" "busy" and "fast paced" - you can only use this style for clients with a company that can be described with those buzz words.

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Yeah, I certainly wouldn't want a website on the internet showing on somebody's computer that is futuristic, technical, and fast paced. His clients are craaaazy.

It sure must be nice to not even be working yet and already know more about making money building websites than Eric Jordan. It must be even better to know more about marketing than all of his clients.

I remember what that was like. Ahhhhh to be young and inexperienced.

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Originally posted by ziad10
hey freestyle why don't you show us some of your work?

i would listen to you if you could do what "2advanced isn't"

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but it's not about this 'who's is bigger' crap.

style is NOT design. Design is making the appropriate decisions based on the 'voice' of the piece, in the case of commercial web design the voice is whatever message the web site has to express. Style is only one small part of acheiving this.

whether his style is good or not was not the original debate here, whether he makes appropriate design decisions was the point.

as freestyle said early the iPod advert is an excellent example of effective design, think of what someone else said earlier, the idea that sony stereos look futuristc and that's what makes them good design... but what makes them good design is the fact that they do they the job they were intended for, not that they look pretty, looking pretty is one of the design decisions but only one.

amazon.com is good design, but it's not pretty....



[Edited by aversion on 03-12-2002 at 11:06 AM]

Yeah to all of the above. ;)

He won't give a flying f*** whether people think he is a designer, an artist or whatever. He's busy and that's what counts. At the end of the day he's running a business, and if what he does sells, he's certainly not going to turn his back on it.

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Originally posted by aversion
as freestyle said early the iPod advert is an excellent example of effective design[/B]

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I'd bet that a whole advertising department was behind that iPod advertisement. Marketing people, management, salesman got together and created that ad. They decided it was to be a clean product shot with that blurb. Was there a designer putting the words together with the picture of the product? Sure. Did a designer create that ad? No. If the advertising department wanted some trendy girl dancing at a rave with the iPod and the designer came back with a clean white product with a blurb, he'd either work overtime to give them what they wanted or work overtime on his resume.

The client gets what the client wants. The ad dept. was the iPod advertisement designer's client. He gave them what they wanted. Eric Jordan gave his clients what they wanted. Complain to them or better yet, go take their business.

Yeah this isn't about me at all, and im not jealous of anything. I stated this in an earlier post. Yes i know that he's making a lot of money, but he still has a lot to learn about commmunication design - the correct way to make great graphic design. There are design firms out there who make much more money than eric jordan. eric jordan is only popular within the "flash" community because everyone who posts things on this message board loves working with flash and making cool designs.

and yes he is busy doing a lot of work, but in my opinion i dont think it is good design. A lot of awards are given out to bad design because they only look at the surface of it. They dont look at the meaning behind it, the important decisions, the amount of research, does it help the company sell? without the fact that eric jordan is famous for using flash techniques. and a lot of great designs aren't noticed right away because they may not look great on the surface. But its function, meaning and purpose goes a long way.

-- i want to stress that this has nothing to do about me, and im not at all saying im better than him or anyone. Im only trying to spark an interesting conversation/debate by contradicting most people and maybe shed some light on new theory's --

I don't think that everything in the guys portfolio has to have content. He is allowed to experiment, like hundreds of other site we see in this forum. I see tons of flying squares and circles that are created from actionscipt, but have no meaning.
Look at Dadaism, that was a style that made sure there was no content, but yet its still in art history books. Was it art?
Also notice how many comments there are everytime 2Advanced is mentioned, and its usually the same people talking abou him. I say he is pretty successful at making us communicate. Like I said before, everyone can criticize and critique, because it is what makes art compelling and interesting.

But dada is all about aesthetics and wasn't there to help a company sell their product or service so how can you compare graphic design to that.

And it is an absolute neccessity for a web site for a company to have meaning, purpose and function - otherwise people will look at it and go "hey, that looks pretty" and walk away! just like they do with dada sculptures.

Design is all about sending a signal (message) to a reciever (viewer) - you want the least amount of static (clutter)to be there. But there are cases where you can have a lot of crap there (if they have meaning) and the design will still work, so long as the message is still strong.

Dada was trying to sell the idea of rebellion with the abolition of traditional culture. Eric Jordan is selling a product yes, but they are both selling something; communication.
Now I do not like a bicycle wheel on a stool, or a bunch of distracting animations all over the page, but they are both successful at getting us to talk about them.

maybe, but eric jordan is communicating the wrong message coming from many of the projects in his portfolio


- and please stop all this "move on" business. I think this is a very educational and provocative post which sparked a great conversation about design. Maybe you can learn something from this. if not from me, then from someone who can prove me wrong. -
[Edited by frreestyle on 03-12-2002 at 06:02 PM]

Why aren't you addressing the fact that he doesn't get to do whatever he wants to do? Are you reading any of my posts? You keep going on and on with your classroom idealism about the essence of design and some pursuit of perfection. Ideals are for guidance. His portfolio is business. He's building sites to make money, not to get an A in design for some theoretical widget manufacturer in a design class. The only site you can assume he was able to build exactly the way he wanted to build is 2advanced.com.

Take your textbook ideal, ignore the real world environment, and use that ideal find fault in his real world accomplishment if it makes you feel like you know something. Ignorance is bliss.

Moot i am not ignoring you... take this quote of yours:

"How do you think the proposal meeting would go when a client is drawn in on 2advanced and he shows up with something organic using earthtones? The client is always right or he's somebody else's client."

Just the other day one of my professor's told the class the client is NOT always right. The clients are not the designers, they must listen to the designer. They come to them with a problem. They need something that will help them sell - this is what the designer is trained for, the only thing the client can do is state their problem and give the designer research so that they can know the client better than they know themselves. It is the designer's responsibility to solve this problem in the best possible way and if he looks back on the finished product and compares it to the problem and it is not the best solution, then he has failed and he must do it over.

you say the clients come to 2advanced because they like his style, but style is different from voice he can have a style, but he needs to give these clients different voices to establish a dance club from a quarterback club, otherwise they come off as the same type of "person"

quote by freestyle:
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But dada is all about aesthetics and wasn't there to help a company sell their product or service so how can you compare graphic design to that.

And it is an absolute neccessity for a web site for a company to have meaning, purpose and function - otherwise people will look at it and go "hey, that looks pretty" and walk away! just like they do with dada sculptures.

Design is all about sending a signal (message) to a reciever (viewer) - you want the least amount of static (clutter)to be there. But there are cases where you can have a lot of crap there (if they have meaning) and the design will still work, so long as the message is still strong.
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freestyle how are you so sure that his design does not sell client's products? it's not like you have any facts. you are just guessing, you are guessing that people will see the futuristic stuff and say thats cool and walk away!

you could easily be wrong!!

for all you know, people could be going to the website, see it's awesome and have a feeling that the company is "cool" even though it's not a "futuristic company" and they will buy there products.

yeah it may not seem right for some companies to have sites that are "futuristic" but thats just a guess! they may be doing amazing because of eric's design!!