[Resolved] [Resolved] STOP FLASHING FOR FLASH'S SAKE

Yet another client, when discussing a brief has stated:

"Oh, and we want some flash on it"

When I asked them why, they replied that their competitors had flash on their site. Upon investigation, their competitors had a naff flash intro (yack!). I then had to tell them the pros and the cons of flash (especially flash intros (yack!). It took a good half hour to convince them that for their purposes, flash was not the best tool to use and didn't actually have to be used at all (its a very corporate looking site).

So please people, stop flashing for the sake of it, we know most people have the plugin and that's not really a worry but for an information based site, flash is not the best or fastest tool. Take into consideration search engine submission, file sizes, functionality etc but don't use flash because you know how to, use it because its needed. When its not needed, use a tool that is.

I thankyou, rant over.....

Yep, I agree. We used to have a salesman who thought flash intros were the mutts nuts and every potential client who he used to meet would end up with one whether they wanted one or not. Personally I hate flash intros, okay my bosses let him sell them for a bit and it more than paid the bills, but they're pointless. I'm an employee you see and not an employer so I basically just got on with them for a while, then we was getting them in every week and they just got so tedious. The salesman we had didn't really know what he was selling, even though I amongst many of us told him the ins and outs of flash, intros and what we could and could not do.

Once he sold a flash intro to this company and the logo was a triangular shape, so our salesman told them that we could make it spin in and out in 3D. We didn't even have Swift or any 3D package in house then, he came into the office and said "Well it's easy to do in flash innit?", "Doh!!" I said. Needless to say he no longer works for us and I think he flips burgers for a living.

The funniest and worst intro I had to do was a company who were contract roofers, yes that's right contract roofers, people who read The Sun newspaper whilst whistling at women walking past with their arses hanging out. This is why flash intros are not needed, what use do they really serve?

And if ur not careful flash sites can get uwfully big.. I was reading on a webdesign thing that 75% of people dont wait that long 4 sites to load so unless there fast loading they suck...
just my opinion :D

We have a Flash intro. It's been online for about 6 or 8 months. We create streaming media and thought a moving intro fit with our webcaster feel. Do you think it works or is it somthing we should re-consider?

See it at http://www.streamworks.ca

Well since this started out as a rant I guess I don't feel so bad about getting off topic. =)

Geoff your site is a stunning example to all web designers of a beautiful, clean site that attains exactly what it was put there to do.

Your intro is short, sweet and stunning.
Nice way to throw in a quick plug too. =)

.aaroncrunchie

Thanks crunchDesign,

But you are too kind. The site does have some shortcomings.

But to keep on topic, when I commissioned the Flash intro design I wanted to create quick thing similar to a TV network's ID without being too grandiose.

I wanted a quick download. Allthough it would be nice especially as I am a sound guy by trade, I didn't put any sound on it for this reason.

Oh man, thats tough..
How about the clients that ask for the cheesy sound effects?

Quote:

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Originally posted by crunchDesign
Your intro is short, sweet and stunning.
Nice way to throw in a quick plug too. =)

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I thought it was not really in intro so much as a logo flash/splash page.. Well done.

Geoff,

very nice site. The flash you use is more than appropriate.
seeing sites like this are inspiring and really keep me driving to improve my skills.

Kudos
Mat

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So please people, stop flashing for the sake of it, we know most people have the plugin and that's not really a worry but for an information based site, flash is not the best or fastest tool. Take into consideration search engine submission, file sizes, functionality etc but don't use flash because you know how to, use it because its needed. When its not needed, use a tool that is.

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Got a good point there
are company brochure websites included as information-based sites? for example: a woodchopping company, :D

but i think, if you use flash properly on sites, not too much moves or unneccessary stuffs it'd own :D

See.. the problem with flash intro's is that it prevent users from accessing the site dirctly, even if you have a 'skip intro' button.

You want the user in as fast as you can... because you ARE trying to sell them something. Flash intro's prevent the user from getting right in, and most of the time, the user leaves.

Also, with lengthy flash intro's (unlike G.E.'s), 56k users will have a real problem. All they want is content.. so give it to them.

Irfaan

also, they tend to pose problems for search engines. You want content on your home page and unfortunately search engines don't spider flash, image files, and java scripts.

Hi serpent star,

With regard to the Flash intro at http://www.streamworks.ca

I appreciate your concern. I have thought about it and we are trying alleviate it by making sure that the page has full header with description and meta tags.

I have considered using some descriptive text the same color as the background color so only search engines will see it. But I heard that some search engines penalize you for that. Has anyone else hear that?

I have heard that as well.

For some very in depth discussions about search engines buy search engine proffesionals, check this out.

http://www.webmasterworld.com/index....ory&category=6

can't seem to spell tonight

Hi Geoff

I had a look at your site, it's great and I'm cacking out (laughing) loudly at the bg image.
I don't think you could class your intro as an intro. It's part of the site and loaded up neatly on my 33.6kbps copper.

In this regard, you should not need a "Skip Intro" link. If sites have skip intro link then what is the use of having one [intro].?

My only qualm about the site is the splash.html is reaching out way beyond the right hand edge of the page at 800x600.
At my usual screen res of 1600x1200 it fits nicely.
Also you could redirect at the end to /streamworks/ instead of /streamworks/splash.html. I always think the URL should be descriptive of the page.

-----
In regards to flash sites and search engines, most valuable search engines work off the google backbone.
I have been looking into ways of providing non flash content (ie plain) to bots without a redirect, using similarily coloured text to the bg or masses of meta tags.

So I have come up with a way that I don't think has been discussed before. Using a language such as PHP you can provide different content depending on what the User Agent string tells you.
eg very simply
if($bot)
{
//provide html content
}
else
{
//provide flash content
}

of course there are some difficulties here with new bots etc.
The main positive item here is that there is no redirect. For all intents and purposes the bot sees your site as html only and doesn't know anything about SWF.

I will be using this method when my site goes live from beta.And will be putting up a tutorial as well.

-----
And my views on intro's

I was speaking to a colleague today who's client wanted the "Lake" applet on every page of their site.
arggh.

My views on the intro are that it should be like Permaculture. ie one thing has many uses,
The 'intro' (i hate that word) should provide many things -

1. a short (<10sec) precis to your content.
and
2. If required, can load in data invisibly so giving a smooth transition to the site. Meaing visitors aren't loading an intro, then loading a site. What use is that?
and
3. must be linked in with the site using content, colours, fonts etc etc that are similar.
ie so instead of an intro it becomes a function extension of the main content areas. Something within the site, not outside of it like a welcome mat.
Analogy : like those funny glass foyer things people have outside their front doors in the UK. They provide function and sometimes and idea of what the people inside are like.



I hope this helps

James

speaking of bad flash usage... here's a great example of flash at it's worst http://www.tsstech.com

thanks.
Ken

Quote:

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Originally posted by le_saut

I will be using this method when my site goes live from beta.And will be putting up a tutorial as well.

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Hi le_saut,

That is super input to this thread. Be sure and let us know when you have your page up, we might want to steal some script :)

Thanks for the input on my streamworks site. I appreciate it and we'll be addressing those concerns shortly as we are ready for a revamping.

A men. It is a shame how big corporate companies are wasting the abilities of Flash, especially for something that isn't needed. I also would like to bring up that the use on banner adds and these new world pop ups (The one that blanks out the rest of your screen until its done, or the one that comes from no where) are giving flash a bad name. I think soon it might even get out of hand.

i started a new job a few months ago, and quickly became aware that my predecessors had over-used flash a bit... they made things that were pretty but lacking in function. If i mentioned using flash I noticed some rolled eyes and a disturbing sense of quiet - to my bosses flash = wasted time and money.

So when the opportunity came to deliver something in flash (we wanted to sell somethin to it savvy ppl and html/javascript would have allowed them to copy the code too easy - swf's were regarded as more secure)

...I designed really static flash stuff, that just showed off the interactive aspects...all the new ui components customised to the company look and feel...and little tracking bonusses that are easy as all your variables are tucked away in the root level.

anyway the moral of this story is that after i'd delivered functionality, flash was no longer a dirty word, people began to 'trust' and even 'respect' it as an interface.

and i could start adding flashy animation bits here and there - nothing over the top, just little smooth elements that subtly lift the page beyond what can be achieved with more static html/javascript alternatives.

but the functionality always comes first

smi

Quote:

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Originally posted by somethinginteractive

anyway the moral of this story is that after i'd delivered functionality, flash was no longer a dirty word, people began to 'trust' and even 'respect' it as an interface.

smi

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Sounds interesting, can you give us a URL?

Also, check this site for a neat quick Flash intro/splash. Ironically, the main page of the site is also done in Flash and is somewhat poor.

http://www.eauk.org

sorry no url

the stuff i was talking about is currently designed as standalone. but we're working on a preview that will be up on our site in a few weeks...hopefully - the whole site is being revamped so it could take longer - as these things do

smi

Sorry about my spelling in the above thread, I just checked it!! Winter just starting here, temps down to 5 deg C at night so my fingers acting independently of my brain.

Am working on site content at the mo, will post in the site check when beta test is raring to go.

Cheers

James

As a web developer/designer, mouthfull I know, I like flash. But let me explain, I know that many of you out there seem to feel that many of the reasons that people use flash for on a daily basis, (fading buttons, unnecessary intros, and a host of other reasons) are completely and utterly useless and can be done with simple Javascripting or Java itself. That there seems to be no real need for Flash maybe. But here is the deal, If you take a web designer or artist which typically is much more visually oriented than technically oriented, then flash becomes a gift from the gods.

Why? well, in order to get a visually stunning and semi-snazzy design out of flash doesn't take an amount of technical and/or programming proficiency that some of us here have. I personally am an all in one deal. I can design, layout, and implement a website, no matter which way the client goes, but not everyone that makes webdesign their stock and trade can take the time to learnhow to program in Javascript, or Java. And to be honest, not everyone has the proficiency to become a programmer.

Besides, most of the flash sites i create come in at about 60 - 98K. Normally if it is going to be any bigger than that I create a hybrid page using HTML and flash. Allowing for graphics to download one slice at a time. :) just my two cents.

Quote:

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Originally posted by bm289
I can design, layout, and implement a website, no matter which way the client goes, but not everyone that makes webdesign their stock and trade can take the time to learnhow to program in Javascript, or Java. And to be honest, not everyone has the proficiency to become a programmer.

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I don't disagree with all you're saying, but I do have to disagree with this statement - like someone should be regarded as a "web designer" with the neccesary skills?? Is that like a driving a car without a licence - yes it can be done, but there are certain basic skills that should be part of even the most basic toolkit.

Flash should always be looked at as a "value add". EVEN if all you are developing n is Flash. If you don't know how to develop in other technologies, then how on earth can you honestly give a client the best advice on what to use, even if the best answer is Flash.

This is what just leaves me dumbfounded, and a little peeved because unfortunately it's what allows people to charge some pissy little amount and try to pass it off as a "professional" job.

Sorry for a bit of a rant, but I for one would LOVE to see some industry requirements come on at some stage to ensure that the cowboys can't rip people off.

(and that's not to suggest anyone here is a cowboy, it's just the suggestion that one should regard themself as a professional without a full toolkit so to speak)

Cheers
Dave

The ability to provide a very large (not filesize) 100% SWF site to a client within a small file size has come a step closer with the ability to dynamically load jpegs in and to source content from a database.

The amount of content that can be displayed in a 25kb SWF framework is quite large and the amount piped thru from the server depends solely on what the browser requests, not what the deisgner/developer needs to embed within the SWF file.

Finally the tech is catching up to what has been taken for granted in Markup Language for the last 10 years or more.

rgds

James

I personally hate doing anything in Flash unless it's "worthy." And what I mean by that is what most of you are saying, more than just simple animated buttons.

The Streamworks site is an excellent use of Flash, used it just to impact the logo, once done, it goes with our valued friend, HTML. Hehe but uh, you kinda already knew that...

And that is my two cents... anyone validate parking?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Geoff Edwards
We have a Flash intro. It's been online for about 6 or 8 months. We create streaming media and thought a moving intro fit with our webcaster feel. Do you think it works or is it somthing we should re-consider?

See it at http://www.streamworks.ca

---

I feel that it is quite appropriate for your purpose. I am not so shure wether you should consider it an intro, it is more like an interstitial.

maybe you should consider taking away the skip option, and replace it with some script that: 1. checks bandwidth and displays a gif or respectively the swf 2. checks if the user has visited before and then evades the intro.

this seems bad ui-habit in the first place, but to many users the skip button has become a synonym for the usual suspected content-free site.

i liked the quickness and flow though

Sincerely
Lars Schulz
Art Director
Germany

jesus christ. it's like a [mod edit] convention here... "no man! your site is awesome," "great job," "kudos," "that makes me want to work harder" [mod edit]
i'd say http://www.streamworks.ca/ is pretty good example of a waste of my time, that's 30 seconds of my life i'll never get back. if someone wants to sit there and download that 77kb file for what? a sparkle, a road, and a logo... granted it's not large, but it's just to show off (just as is posting "is this a waste" is)

that site (and sites like it) are what i thought this forum was talking about, sure you can skip it (there were what two different links there, it's almost begging to be skipped) but why not just omit the whole damn thing. what it's purpose? if this forum is function over flash.

... but these little forums are great, aren't they? because you're guranteed to hear what you want to hear. so take a pat on the back there buddy, you're doing a great ****ing job.

oh and the keywords at the bottom of your site, nice and ****ing tacky.

dork
[Edited by RazoRmedia on 05-29-2002 at 07:44 AM]

I think you need to lose your attitude, or leave. It is called "constructive critisism", not "curse me out, please".

So now I suggest you shut up or leave. People like you disgrace Flashkit, and I don't take kindly to a newbie coming in cursing out the poeple who have been here for a long time as me, and were used to when people were kind and considerate. Remember, Constructive critisism.

If you have some good tips, tell them. If not, don't fill our forums with a load of profanity.

airseabattle,

you don't have to agree with everyone, you can disagree, you can say exactly what you think about flash intro's etc. What we do ask is that you do not swear, you do not flame and you try to give people a bit of respect.

Your post should have been deleted but I am leaving it as an example. You have your own opinion, fair enough its different from others but why the attitude? problems in your personal life make you angry all the time?

Please refrain from posting in such a way again.

thankyou

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Originally posted by airseabattle
... but these little forums are great, aren't they?

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yes, you've asked a number of help questions so you must find them useful

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We create streaming media

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I think the interstitial idea fits well with the streaming media direction for your biz.

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this seems bad ui-habit in the first place, but to many users the skip button has become a synonym for the usual suspected content-free site.

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The "intro" as the barrier to the content is what creates the issue here. That hump that a new user has to get over to reach your content can make or break a site.

For html content after the intro, providing a bookmark-able link to that page can help.
For flash content loaded up within the intro this can be more difficult to achieve if not impossible. The saving grace here is the browser cache, which allows swf's already present in the browser to pop up instantly when a loadMovie action is called.

The intro must be a transparent process, not the "loading, please wait" mentality that pervades the screens of the larger flash sites.
Why should the user "wait"? - and more importantly why should we be telling them they have to wait? It's like getting Shumacher in an F1 and telling him to wait 2 minutes when the flag goes down just for the sake of it.
The user is ready and raring to go, and we have to work within that restriction, among others (the absent plugin being the most difficult to mine).

regs

James

I hate Flash intros. I didn't always hate them, but it seems that everyone jumped on the "intro" bandwagon after a few leading design shops did it once or twice. It simply doesn't work for all sites. Most intros you see are trash anyway (just like the sites they lead - and another thread altogether).

However, Flash intros can be used in a way that is unobtrusive. For instance, I never do full screen intros. I tend to create a basic site and put a small "intro" on the homepage. (eg. http://salonvoices.com/ - needs editing, but...)

I think things are better that way. And if for some reason the intro is very large, people don't have to wait or press some silly "skip" button.

Basically, I think that most intros are turn-offs. I like long, full-screen, innovative trailers at the movies...not on sites. I always skip them or leave completely.

But then this is all coming from a "power surfer"...I'm quick to leave a site over the smallest glitch anyway. Time I waste is money I lose.

I'm on 56k, and a intro just annoys me, my eyes go straight for any "skip" button I see now, without thinking.

Though, saying that, I just added a flash element to my site, a little menu widget.

http://www.edmack.com

Not very original or spectacular, but I was dieing to have a go. I have links at the bottom for all the content, which are a decent size without being obtrusive, and I got the filesize to be 13k (basically a font outline so that I can fade it). This is just Flashing for Flash's sake, but I think I took the right steps.

Sorry about my anger earlier. I was in a horrible mood, I don't know what got under my skin. But I guess my anger just canceled out any of my purpose any way, sorry.