Clients - aaarrrrggggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!

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paul,

I didn't much care for your tone in one of your earlier e-mails and I certainly don't care for it now.

Please bear in mind that this refers to work you undertook to do in 2 weeks which actually took you almost 6 weeks, despite several calls and e-mails to enquire about progress. This has seriously impacted our schedule. It also raises concerns about your ability to deliver on time. This was bad enough being internal work' for Concept, but what if it had been for a customer of ours?

my recommendation is that you resubmit your invoice for 200 as mentioned in your previous mail, which is a very fair payment indeed for the work in question.

rgds, ian

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I HATE CLIENTS!!!! :mad:

and how did you reply ??

I havent yet!

what did your original mail say ?

Dont have it - used hotmail! :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by rugbystud
Dont have it - used hotmail! :rolleyes:

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but what basically where you being arsey about ?

Nothing at all. This guy jsut has a problem with designers! I havent sent this yet, but am still adjusting it.

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I'm sorry Ian. I really am at a loss as to this 'tone' you are referring to. I have never had a 'tone' in any emails and I certainly do not now. I can say, however, that this email that I am replying to is rather a disgrace (not to mention cheek) on behalf of you and more importantly your company. The work produced for your logo was sent only a few weeks after I received the brief from Sharon to no response from anyone. (You, apparently, had no knowlege of this. This goes to prove a probable communication problem within your company) Therefore, I waited until a further critique was produced. When I finally received some phonecalls from you, the work was produced and sent on that day. As the design of a website goes (or any design for that matter), it certainly takes a few weeks to receive comments and redesign any changes/restructures, etc. Certainly not 2!

You mention the word 'fair' for my payment of 3 design layouts and totally rebranded logo design. For £* - this is an absolute steal for my talents and design skills. Anything less is a joke!!! If you cannot see that my talents are worth more than this then you really have unfortunate inability to see a good design skillset.

When this job started, I asked for money upfront. This was not done (it was met with a rather aggresssive dismissal from yourself, when I asked weeks later) The whole point of money upfront is, from my point of view, a guarantee from the client. In the past, I have taken work, produced the work and then not heard anything again.

I would rather forget this particular occasion, and am still waiting for the £* for all the work undertaken. Im sorry that this particualr job has come to this sort of conclusion. If my work is used without me being paid, action will be taken. All the best in finding another designer.

Paul MacLeod

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Ok, first go take outside and have a smoke, a drink, or whatever.
You realize that you ain't gitin' nothing from this guy after gitin' a friendly email like that! It might make you feel better, lettin it all out, but just realize that this might dictate how you keep your cool with future clients. I've been where you're at, we all have, and just before hitting the "send" button, I take a deep breath and just delete the email. You never know, this client might be well net-worked and give you a bad rep.

That's just my 2c...

This is my previous email to the first one at teh top! Apparently there's 'tone' in it...

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Ian,

Sorry for taking so long to get back in touch. Attached is an invoice for £250 as we discussed, there was some extra work carried out to produce a 4th design (taken from 2 of the previous designs).

Thanks,

Paul MacLeod

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And this is his response to it:

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I didn't much care for your tone in one of your earlier e-mails and I certainly don't care for it now.

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:confused:

Since we don't know too much about the current situation, we can't give you the best of advice. But I can agree with Razor that you shouldn't send that email in its current format. You will immediately put your client on the defensive and eventually the offensive.

Starting the email off with something like "I'm sorry if I sound like I have a tone. Sometimes email can't quite portray tones as they are meant by the sender and it would appear this is the case in my recent email to you..."

Then be nice.

Otherwise, you're going to have a violent client on your hands. That's never good.

Scott

I would also agree with the others. Your response needs to be very calm and concilliatory (sp?). I think the best way you can make your case is to just be very factual (after starting off with something along the line of what Scott suggested). Simply state that you sent the work to them on x date and never received a response (if you sent it via a trackable service, then I would include the appropriate tracking information so that it could be confirmed when you sent it). Continue with the amount of hours you spent on the project (which hopefully match up to an estimate you can refer them back to), specify again the number of hours added on due to the additional work requested, and the total of the invoices (hours X rate).

Hopefully being very nice in your next email and showing him that his company did receive the work from you in a timely fashion will bring him around (remember, he may have just dealt with 10 shadey designers in a row and is just assuming you are another one - prove him wrong).

But go ahead and vent in here! It's a great place to get it out so you don't have to yell at the actual client.

Good luck,
-monster.

ruggers..for what it's worth... here's my buck fiddy

I would hoist those steel plated rugby playin nuts of yours and pick up the freakin phone.. better yet go talk with the guy in person..

not to pick a fight, but to resolve the issue.. you are a kick arse designer and they'd be hard pressed to find someone who could offer them a service as good as yours. Obviously this problem arose becuase of the #1 problem in business today, lack of communication. Just try and explain to him that from your end the work was done in a timely maner and apologize profusely that you seemed to be dragging your feet.. let him know you want to resolve the issue and work out a professional relatoinship that is mutually beneficial... if he's still a flaming arse wipe.. then take your £200 and be done with it.

try and see it from his perspective.. obviously from his end he feels like he's getting worked. If you were to talk with him i bet he'd at least give you a chance to explain yourself and you could at least get to the bottom of what's going on... no more emails! talk in person or over the phone! trust me.. it will get resolved quicker and you'll feel much better about it.

:smoov:

Yeah, I know! Thx guys! Just was about to drive over to his office and beat seven sh*ts out of him! :D

Sent his email to my gf - here's her response. I think Ill send her round to sort him out! :D

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There is no tone - it is totally polite!! I would phone him tell him you don't give a sh*te of what he thinks of your tone that he owes you £250 and you will NEVER work for him again!!!!!! D*ck! Did you discuss with him or Sharon that you were going to charge them some more money? I think you should tell her where to go as well Paul - the £200 really hasn't been worth the hassle. Who does he think he is? Euch makes me soooooo mad!!!

By the way he has no right to right the sort of thing he did - if he has a problem he should discuss it nicely that is what PROFESSIONAL people do!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul MacLeod [mailto: [email protected]]
Sent: 08 October 2002 11:24
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fwd: RE: conceptonline site


What a bad bad man !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! aaaarghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

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Ahhhhhhh, the joys of freelancing!

language Mr McLeod!

The tone he refers to is likely that of "there's nothing odd going on, business as usual" when he feels he's been screwed. I don't know the situation, and I'd of course believe a fellow designer over a client ;) but if he feels it's true, then to him it is true. So you must think from that perspective when trying to determine what his beef is with you. That said, his opening remark was completely unprofessional, and set the mood for the rest of the email, which would have otherwise been perfectly acceptable (even if not good news).

Did you notify him before extra work was undertaken which would raise the price, and get his approval? If not, I see where the problem is.

If so, take one last shot on reasoning with him. Submit another £250 invoice, write on it "past due." After that, you've done all that you can. If I were you, I'd stand my ground, and take £0 before I took £200.

(For us Yanks, keep in mind £250 is approximately $400)

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Originally posted by nocrapchurch
Since we don't know too much about the current situation, we can't give you the best of advice...

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What is this? The standard disclaimour that nocrapchurch is not responsible for anything he says? - If you post, say something and mean it, or else don't bother -

Sorry. It's just getting tedious.

rugbystud, I am a lucky, lucky guy that, with the amount of companies that we've done business with, this is not more common (for us). Let me be the first to say that your work (especially the PS stuff, of what I've seen) is really nice, and whether or not it suited the taste of this fella, it did not (I am sure) warrant the e-mail you recieved.

As aeroflash said though, at the point that you get a mail like that, you ain't gonna get no cash, 'cause either they're trying to provoke a response from you (response=guilty), or just simply trying to build a small-claims court case.

Either way, you don't need to worry - talentless p***** who work for low budget companies come around everyday, and there's no need start second guessing yourself, just 'cause this fella reckons 'he's all over that'.

you'll never get any money through a small claims court, even if you win, there is no forcement upon the company to pay up.

They say the client is always right, this I disagree with, I would reword it to 'you should always treat the client as if they were right'. In this business (especially UK freelance) it is more harmful in the long term to damage your reputation over a trivial disagreement.

I think a polite email apologising for your tone (even if there wasn't one) and then further politeness over any future correspondance and come out the other side with a decent reputation (albeit £50 lighter).

Obviously, the problem with this is that if the company do use you again, it is possible that they may try this on again, so learn from your mistakes, meet with your future clients, work out contracts, schedules and timescales and keep up constant communication informing them of your progress.

Hope this is of some help to you son

(failing that, I'll pop up to Glasgow and help you to break his legs! :mad: )

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Originally posted by hurricaneone
What is this? The standard disclaimour that nocrapchurch is not responsible for anything he says? - If you post, say something and mean it, or else don't bother -

Sorry. It's just getting tedious.

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erm...

If you've have posted Scotts whole quote, you would have seen that he did have something to say. He wrote the disclaimer because we don't know the whole facts or the situation between Paul and his client.

bad day ?

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Originally posted by RazoRmedia
Obviously, the problem with this is that if the company do use you again,

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NO chance!!! :mad:

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Originally posted by RazoRmedia
(failing that, I'll pop up to Glasgow and help you to break his legs! :mad:

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:D

Bit hypocritical here but I just phoned the guy and its £200! :rolleyes:

Hung up the phone and let out an almighty scream! Felt good! He mentioned future work.... Whadya think! It just goes to show that speaking to teh client does work wonders.

...and with that, Paul took the knife out of his pocket, sat down and had a nice cup of tea.

:D

I'm glad it worked out for you, Paul.
I remember a PHP developer I hired to develop an application for me. Our first correspondence was by phone, then from there on was with email.
About half-way through the project, he was slightly irritated at my "tone", and I was also irritated with his.
A simple phone call cleared up the whole "tone" thing, and work continued happily.

This is a simple example of how tedious email correspondence can be! Unless you use a load of emotic:)ns in your :Dmessage, you can't really set the proper "tone". When the conversation is a live, voice or face to face conversation, there are eye movements, voice inflections and body language that take care of that for you. Since writing smilies in your business mails is "unprofessional", it is extremely difficult to keep the "tone" at a comfortable level.

Just my thought! :cool:

good 4 u ruggers! :D:D

my condolences on being taken for 50 quid.. but your business is also an investment, sometimes you gotta give a little to get a little. And even thought the guy may seem like kind of a bungus.. overcoming this hurdle will probably help you out in the long run..

there's a saying here at the zoo.. "if your nice to a monkey he'll tell three of his monkey friends about it.. if your mean.. he'll wine about it to 10 other monkeys." ;)

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Originally posted by RazoRmedia
They say the client is always right, this I disagree with, I would reword it to 'you should always treat the client as if they were right'.

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Razor,

That's brillant. Possibly the best thing i've heard in months. Mind if i use?

d.

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Originally posted by dlowe93
Razor,

That's brillant. Possibly the best thing i've heard in months. Mind if i use?

d.

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course ya can :)

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Originally posted by RazoRmedia
erm...

If you've have posted Scotts whole quote, you would have seen that he did have something to say. He wrote the disclaimer because we don't know the whole facts or the situation between Paul and his client.

bad day ?

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Does anyone here ever have the 'whole' story. I doubt it, yet still, en masse, we continue to postulate and comment on other peoples situations with impunity. Just that if you feel the need to have a disclaimour, I recommend the footer, not the first two lines of the post.

I think that this whole 'I'm not liable for anything I say here' attitude is just a waste of time.

Bad day, RazoR? - the worst. Thought I'd just like to reiterate that I too, am not liable for anything I post, nor can you assume that I may know what I'm talking about. Frankly, just take it for granted I'm a blithering idiot who just wasted your bandwidth with this naff example of a useless, pointless disclaimour.

See how annoying it can be?
:doughnut:

Does anyone here ever have the 'whole' story. I doubt it, yet still, en masse, we continue to postulate and comment on other peoples situations with impunity. Just that if you feel the need to have a disclaimour, I recommend the footer, not the first two lines of the post.

I don't see this is a disclaimer from Scott, I see it as a sentence that says his opinion might be different if he knew the full story.

I think that this whole 'I'm not liable for anything I say here' attitude is just a waste of time.

I don't see it as him defending his words to make him not liable for them, thats how I perceive this.

Bad day, RazoR? - the worst. Thought I'd just like to reiterate that I too, am not liable for anything I post, nor can you assume that I may know what I'm talking about. Frankly, just take it for granted I'm a blithering idiot who just wasted your bandwidth with this naff example of a useless, pointless disclaimour.

See how annoying it can be?
:doughnut:

hurricaneone, you have, as long as I can remember, been a valued member of this board. I don't see a problem here where clearly you do, thats your own opinion which of course you are entitled to. I disagree with a lot of things that happen here on flashkit with members, other moderators and even admin. What I don't like, I ignore, simple as that.

Sorry if you have a problem but please stay on the board and don't let something like this blow up into something its not.

Cheers

Bruce

Forget writing an email. The one you wrote is really no better than the one he wrote IMO. Pick up the phone, and dont forget HE IS THE CUSTOMER. Obviously, you aren't going to roll over on the issue.. but take a passive approach.

"... What can I do to make you happy, sir?"

".. You want me to disregard this invoice? (shocked, but willing to discuss..), well sir: I did X number of hours to create your logo, (per your briefs, sent an email, etc.) - does it seem fair to you that I go without payment?

*Ask the client if the inverse would be acceptable. Would they feel it was fair if the situations were reversed? Would they expect to be paid.

The solution probably lies somewhere in the middle. If you failed to deliver by their date, a problem exists. If they did not respond to your email with the drafts, you should have called. Don't simply wait for them to check their email - because things get lost or inadvertently deleted. As a designer trying to meet their needs, I would have called and said: "I very much need to know feedback on the logo so I can meet YOUR deadline."

It sucks, but its the business.
Dont rely on email too much to correspond with clients.
Good luck.:mrpimp:

Chris

congratulations

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Originally posted by OddDog
congratulations

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On what?

on getting 200 quid out of a lossing deal.

i personally always take the 200 over the 250.

always get money frpo work done. always.

opps meant to say 200 over the 0 quid !!!!

Yeah, I actually said during the conversatino that I didnt want any money for it. :eek: What a stupid thing to say!!!!

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Originally posted by RazoRmedia
Does anyone here ever have the 'whole' story. I doubt it, yet still, en masse, we continue to postulate and comment on other peoples situations with impunity. Just that if you feel the need to have a disclaimour, I recommend the footer, not the first two lines of the post.

I don't see this is a disclaimer from Scott, I see it as a sentence that says his opinion might be different if he knew the full story.

I think that this whole 'I'm not liable for anything I say here' attitude is just a waste of time.

I don't see it as him defending his words to make him not liable for them, thats how I perceive this.

Bad day, RazoR? - the worst. Thought I'd just like to reiterate that I too, am not liable for anything I post, nor can you assume that I may know what I'm talking about. Frankly, just take it for granted I'm a blithering idiot who just wasted your bandwidth with this naff example of a useless, pointless disclaimour.

See how annoying it can be?
:doughnut:

hurricaneone, you have, as long as I can remember, been a valued member of this board. I don't see a problem here where clearly you do, thats your own opinion which of course you are entitled to. I disagree with a lot of things that happen here on flashkit with members, other moderators and even admin. What I don't like, I ignore, simple as that.

Sorry if you have a problem but please stay on the board and don't let something like this blow up into something its not.

Cheers

Bruce

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I reckon that scott's as free as anyone else to write whatever he likes, so with that in mind, I would like to withdraw all accusations of post hedging, which is a phrase I just coined (hope it's understandable).

That you, RazoR, can ignore stuff that you don't like is a commendable feat - I, on the other hand, have a well-documented inability to keep my gob shut if I see something that I don't like. Of course, this reaction can create friction, but those who know me well take it with a pinch of salt - there he goes again, type of thing. To know me is to love me, eh?

Anyway, enough of this. Back to ruggers and his GBP200 - Nice one. And the fella said that he might want to do some work with ya later (if I remember correctly?) - Then you have the diplomacy of Solomon, my friend, to pull that one back from the confrontational edge.

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Originally posted by hurricaneone
...To know me is to love me, eh?

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woah there, I think I prefered you when you're arguing ;)

jajajajajajaja