Bid Wars: NerdInside vs. clifgriffin

http://nerdinside.dyndns.org/junk/us...rt.jhtml2.html

http://pc.clifgriffin.com/thing.txt

Ok...

Sample company.

They need 150 workstations with basic word proccessing and microsoft office type tasks.

They also have 2 t1s with a moderately high demanding site such as Amazon.com with large DB needs.

A second website offers 30mb space without server side scripting or db to users.

We are also assuming that the users send about 800 emails and receive 300 or more an hour.

Me and nerdles put together bids. I used windows. He used sun.

I've linked to the configs.

Please vote for which config you think would best meet the requirements. Use price, performance, scalability, and flexibility to make your decision.

Thank you.

Mods: Please do not mess around with the poll.

Clif

P.S: If I've left anything out, nerdles...just post.

You can clearly see mine cost more (unless you use fuzzy math), but it has a lot of flexibility in design. All upgrades, software, and files for both workstation and servers are kept at the server level instead of at a user level. So if I needed to upgrade some software, I could just upgrade it once and be done with it. Or if I wanted to back up user data to a Sun StorEdge harddrive rack, I could easily. With Clif's setup, you have to update each machine manually, back up each manually, and you have no room to expand.

And you left out DNS.

Nerdle's setup allocates about 1.6 gb's of space to each user. Mine gives a full 40gb to each.

Nerdles setup makes 150 users share 8 650mhz proccessors while each of mine get a full 2ghz a piece.

My users get more performance and control of their PCs. They have full Office XP licenses included with their computers and all run Windows XP Proffessional.

Mine just have more power.

Plus, my 2 xeons and dual 36gb 15k RPM SCSI HDDs rule.

Even though I had to pay for many more software licenses, I still beat his price by a good 15k.

Clif

Nerdle's setup allocates about 1.6 gb's of space to each user. Mine gives a full 40gb to each.

That's because, when we started, it was about price. Now it's about performance and else. If you want more space, I can give you more space. Though I don't even think they would use that much in Fake Co.

Nerdles setup makes 150 users share 8 650mhz proccessors while each of mine get a full 2ghz a piece.

SPARC and an Intel are 2 different CPUs. SPARCs out perform higher GHz Intels even though they're speed is "slower". It's not like these guys are doing heavy 3D work, just typing and such.

My users get more performance and control of their PCs. They have full Office XP licenses included with their computers and all run Windows XP Proffessional.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have control over a UNIX system not a Windows. Thin clients give them just as much control as a full system.

Plus, my 2 xeons and dual 36gb 15k RPM SCSI HDDs rule.

90GB for my 3 server blades. We never did set how much space this company would use ;)

Even though I had to pay for many more software licenses, I still beat his price by a good 15k.

I had to pay for thin client software licenses also.

Nerdle's hard drives are 5200 rpms :p

SLOOOOOOOWWW! :D

As I told Runes, I think that's the worst part of my whole setup. I did have one of these on there but I figured there is no point in paying for spacing that no one will use, like you did Clif.

SPARC and an Intel are 2 different CPUs. SPARCs out perform higher GHz Intels even though they're speed is "slower". It's not like these guys are doing heavy 3D work, just typing and such.

You've yet to demonstrate that 8 SPARCS can beat out 150 Intels.

90GB for my 3 server blades. We never did set how much space this company would use

Your drives don't come anywhere near to 15,000 RPM SCSIs. ;)

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have control over a UNIX system not a Windows. Thin clients give them just as much control as a full system.

There are ways...remote installs. Terminal Services. Network loggin scripts.

Clif

You've yet to demonstrate that 8 SPARCS can beat out 150 Intels.

Each employee in your setup doesn't have access to all 150 Intels.

Your drives don't come anywhere near to 15,000 RPM SCSIs.

RPMs and GBs are one thing, how much space is actually used is another.

There are ways...remote installs. Terminal Services. Network loggin scripts.

So you feel like logging into each system every day to back up there files? I see.

Each employee in your setup doesn't have access to all 150 Intels.

That isn't really the question. The question is when 150 users have to share 8 proccessors, are they going to get the performance my setup gives them?

Answer: No

RPMs and GBs are one thing, how much space is actually used is another.

RPM and drive interface can make or break a server. A server with SCSI and a high rpm drive will far out perform the same systme with standard drives.

Believe me..I know, I've used too many of them.

So you feel like logging into each system every day to back up there files? I see.

Loggin scripts could easily be used to facilitate backups if neccessary. Not as easily as yours, but wasn't the main issue performance? We didn't mention backups as a requirement of our infastructure.

Clif

That isn't really the question. The question is when 150 users have to share 8 proccessors, are they going to get the performance my setup gives them?

Answer: No

Maybe, if they were doing 3D work or something that needs 2GHz. Fact is, word processing doesn't.

And ok, let's take your setup. Let's now say that the flu is going around and 140 of the 150 people are out sick. Now that leaves 10 active machines, yet all those other machines aren't being used. With my setup, they just have more CPU time to use.

RPM and drive interface can make or break a server. A server with SCSI and a high rpm drive will far out perform the same systme with standard drives.

Believe me..I know, I've used too many of them.

Did I say otherwise? No. Infact I agreed with you, 5200RPMs is really bad. I think Sun just put that one in there so you would buy there StorEdge haddrive rack.

Loggin scripts could easily be used to facilitate backups if neccessary. Not as easily as yours, but wasn't the main issue performance? We didn't mention backups as a requirement of our infastructure.

Actually, the main issue was price. But as we can see it's easy to make a cheap setup when you crame everything onto 1 server, but when that server goes down everything goes with it. So what's the point in that?

Maybe, if they were doing 3D work or something that needs 2GHz. Fact is, word processing doesn't.

And ok, let's take your setup. Let's now say that the flu is going around and 140 of the 150 people are out sick. Now that leaves 10 active machines, yet all those other machines aren't being used. With my setup, they just have more CPU time to use.

Happens every day no doubt?

We're talking normal working hours...we're assuming most employees show up.

150 users on 8 proccessors is going to be a stress. No problems in my setup though.

Did I say otherwise? No. Infact I agreed with you, 5200RPMs is really bad. I think Sun just put that one in there so you would buy there StorEdge haddrive rack.

You compared speed to GB in your last post.

Plus, performance matters, so it is a valid consideration.

Actually, the main issue was price. But as we can see it's easy to make a cheap setup when you crame everything onto 1 server, but when that server goes down everything goes with it. So what's the point in that?

By the same token, if you have 1 installation of the software, if the software experiences troubles, you have 150 computers blocked out.

In my set up, if someone's MS Word stops working, everyone else uses theirs unaffected.

Clif

Happens every day no doubt?

We're talking normal working hours...we're assuming most employees show up.

150 users on 8 proccessors is going to be a stress. No problems in my setup though.

Servers work well on routines, it's when that one huge load spike happens when something goes wrong.

I won't say 150 users on 8 CPUs wouldn't be stress, but it's doable. The users wouldn't even notice a difference when all they are doing is word processing.

You compared speed to GB in your last post.

Plus, performance matters, so it is a valid consideration.

Like I said, I AGREE. I didn't compare speed to GB, I compared to how much you have and how much you would use.

By the same token, if you have 1 installation of the software, if the software experiences troubles, you have 150 computers blocked out.

In my set up, if someone's MS Word stops working, everyone else uses theirs unaffected.

If you are using the same software everywhere, it would happen everywhere. Things like this normally don't happen on UNIXes. And all configuration files for each user are appart. Most likely, it would be a configuration problem with the software (in this case OpenOffice), so all I'd have to do is set OpenOffice back to default for that one user.

If MS Word stops working? That happens daily, so your works should be use to it by now ;)

Servers work well on routines, it's when that one huge load spike happens when something goes wrong.

I won't say 150 users on 8 CPUs wouldn't be stress, but it's doable. The users wouldn't even notice a difference when all they are doing is word processing.

In a thin client, the server has much more to do than run word proccessing. It has to handle EVERYTHING that the OS does...including display and networking.

If you are using the same software everywhere, it would happen everywhere. Things like this normally don't happen on UNIXes. And all configuration files for each user are appart. Most likely, it would be a configuration problem with the software (in this case OpenOffice), so all I'd have to do is set OpenOffice back to default for that one user.
Servers also don't normally fail.

If MS Word stops working? That happens daily, so your works should be use to it by now
Not on XP pro. :D

Clif

In a thin client, the server has much more to do than run word proccessing. It has to handle EVERYTHING that the OS does...including display and networking.

It's not like it starts a new OS under VMWare for each thin client. It just pipes XFree86 display to each thin client.

Servers also don't normally fail.

If they run Windows they do. And FK does too ;)

Not on XP pro.

I company would like to use something they could change to fit there exact needs, not something that will never change.

both of your solutions are flawed.

griff higgins, the average user as described doesn't need nor warrant the speed of the processor for apps used, nor the space. also, administration costs would be prohibitively high for upgrades, licenses, and network administration when expanding.

nerdles, your design is flawed because you give too little room to the user; as well as didn't account for backup servers, cluster server arrangements for redundancy, and SAN for expanded storage; as well as dummy terminals and monitors.

There's more to network design, administration, and implementation than what's listed here.

Good starts on both sides though.

Quote:

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Originally posted by gerbick

nerdles, your design is flawed because you give too little room to the user; as well as didn't account for backup servers, cluster server arrangements for redundancy, and SAN for expanded storage; as well as dummy terminals and monitors.

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I totally agree, but when we first started it was only going to be judged based on price. That was the flaw in the contest.

griff higgins, the average user as described doesn't need nor warrant the speed of the processor for apps used, nor the space. also, administration costs would be prohibitively high for upgrades, licenses, and network administration when expanding.

True, but mine allows for evolution in the needs of the users. When you buy a computer, you don't just buy what you need, you buy more than you need allowing for the possiblity your needs will change.

The same could be said for my config.

I just think Nerdles solution...while more centralized...costs a lot more. If he were to build his system to my specs, it'd cost tons.

Clif

What is the average intellegence of your users...computer wise?

Quote:

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Originally posted by onlinegs.com
What is the average intellegence of your users...computer wise?

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lower than you'd let on your personal computer at home.

Quote:

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Originally posted by gerbick
lower than you'd let on your personal computer at home.

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Most likely. :D

Quote:

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Originally posted by clifgriffin
griff higgins, the average user as described doesn't need nor warrant the speed of the processor for apps used, nor the space. also, administration costs would be prohibitively high for upgrades, licenses, and network administration when expanding.

True, but mine allows for evolution in the needs of the users. When you buy a computer, you don't just buy what you need, you buy more than you need allowing for the possiblity your needs will change.

The same could be said for my config.

I just think Nerdles solution...while more centralized...costs a lot more. If he were to build his system to my specs, it'd cost tons.

Clif

---

This is a company of workers, they will only be doing certian things with there computers. No need to give them a Radeon 9700 if they won't need it.

It does cost more, doesn't take NASA to figure that out. But I'd much rather have Sun blades and thin clients in my corner then a bunch of Windows PCs. (Then again, I'd rather have anything in my corner instead of Windows)

Well, then I am going to have to go with Clif, just becasue of these "normal" computer users.

I agree with Gerbs though, you don't need 2ghz, save some money and got with a 1 or a 1.5ghz.

*enters thread*
*reads thread*
*scratches head*

I don't know what any of that stuff is but for the sole fact that the overwhelmingly majority of office users are familar with Microsoft windows and other software, I'd chose Clif's setup.

A hidden cost in yours Nerd Inside is the training you're going to have to give staff so they could get accustomed with whatever software you're using.

Seems my vote knocked you in front Clif. 4-3 Oh, I'm on the edge of my seat now...

*leaves the thread to the geeks and goes to bed* ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by CVO Chris
A hidden cost in yours Nerd Inside is the training you're going to have to give staff so they could get accustomed with whatever software you're using.

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I hear OpenOffice looks like Microsoft Word (I think it looks like Corel but bleh). In fact, OpenOffice has better support for Microsofts own formats then Microsoft does. And it doesn't take a uber computer person to stick a smartcard into a machine, then open the program.

nobody's talked about Total Cost of Ownership.

griff higgins, look again at the TCO for MS OfficeXP.

?

dare you forget the new MS Licensing 6.0 model?

it's a lot more expensive than the existing model.

Quote:

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The combination of the aforementioned market conditions, coupled with outrage at Microsoft, means that there is a very good chance a significant portion of corporations will not migrate to the new Licensing 6.0 Program. Additionally, many corporations may also elect to defer migrations to Windows XP, Office XP, Windows .NET Server and Active Directory.

Ironically, by mis-judging the market and its corporate customers so completely, Microsoft with its Licensing 6.0 Program, may have unwittingly accomplished what all of its rivals and the U.S. Department of Justice combined could not do: turn people away from Microsoft products.

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read more here or here or search

How does this effect my estimate? ;)

erm.

don't you have to buy stuff?

Yeah, but I already got my price....

It's when I upgrade that takes effect right?

no. when you buy and deploy.

Quote:

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Originally posted by clifgriffin
http://nerdinside.dyndns.org/junk/us...rt.jhtml2.html

http://pc.clifgriffin.com/thing.txt

Ok...

Sample company.

They need 150 workstations with basic word proccessing and microsoft office type tasks.

They also have 2 t1s with a moderately high demanding site such as Amazon.com with large DB needs.

A second website offers 30mb space without server side scripting or db to users.

We are also assuming that the users send about 800 emails and receive 300 or more an hour.

Me and nerdles put together bids. I used windows. He used sun.

---

You didn't use all MS. You have MySQL as your DB. Likewise Nerd could have taken your config and used Linux and saved cash.

First off- Besides those most obvious bits there...

1. You are using Intel Celerons where you could be using AMD CPU's and saving cash.

2. Office Small Biz + Publisher isn't likely to please everyone. SMall Biz is Excel + Word + Outlook+ Publisher http://www.microsoft.com/office/howt...einstalled.asp . Your employees will want FP, Acrobat, Access, and PPT. WHy didn't you just opp for Corel Productivity- It gives you more? Even better yet why not Opt for Open Office, which does more? Likewise if you Opt for Open Office you could didtribute it to your employees for the cost of burning a CD to take home. Furthermore some employees will want Visio.

3. You also left out the Corp support Liscense for the MS products. If your a Biz MS charges you more for support. You also left out Lisc 6.0 agreements for upgrades. As a corp you won't be able to upgrade without paying a yearly fee to MS.

4. Becuase of 1 and 2 you are better off using Dia + Open Office + Mozilla (With Calander Plugin) + MySQL or Firebird http://firebird.sourceforge.net/ (Interbase) desktop connected for access like aplications. The equivilancy that I just gave you is MS Office Developer + Visio On the sever you are best of Apacghe and PHP- My SQL if you want but Firebird/Interbase is a better SQL Database and is still free if you go with Firebird over the new Interbase.

5. Honestly, for office workers, They don't need 2 GHZ machines. I would substitute for FIC Falcon Computers 933-1 GHZ (ITX or Mini-ITX Based machines) running a custom Linux http://www.fic.com.tw/product/sff/intro_falcon.aspx
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=...Froogle+Search

(The Falcon CR51 goes for about $250 per machine outfitted with CDRom, Floppy, and HD goes for an average of $250. The base Price of a Falcon is $99-$150!!)

If they need more power then go with the FIC-Samba (P4 machines start around $400)

There are many reasons for this.

A. Its highly customizable. You can make it all look the same for everyone. Likewise you can distribute them with only Open Office, Dia, MySQL or Firebird Client, Mozilla, and perhaps Cinepaint/FilmGimp. Becuase most Office Workrs won't know how to install things on Linux they won't be inclined to fiddle. Likewise you won't have to worry about the Email Virus of the week.

B. You can give them the OS to work with at home.

C. Cost- Obviously...

D. Without purchasing Corp Support Licsense from MS you will be self supporting anyhow or paying close to 300 per support call to MS. Likewise without a Lic 6.0 agreement the cost to upgrade your set up is going to be sky high. Finaly you won't have to worry about the BSA Audits which are both time consuming and costly.

5. I'd use a FIC Janus Internally for Mail and storage http://www.fic.com.tw/product/server/janus.aspx

They are cheap , has on board Raid (Levels 0+1,0,or 1) , reliable, and its compact design is made for small bussiness.

6. The web site- I'd source that out to a reliable vendor. However... If it couldn't be sourced again I'd use LAMP (Linux Apache MySQL or Firebird and PHP) as it has a higher proven uptime than your solution. As you stated it has a such a high load I wouldn't put it on a Janus but then again I'd probably use Sun Blades also over Wintels. I surely wouldn't trust what you have for it. I would use a Boreas 1U Server

Cost Savings...

Falcons with Custom Linux with aplications descibed above...

$25,000 vs $113,850.00 just for grins I decided to price it with FIC Sambas 2 GHZ P4's and it was only 60,000

The savings here is astronomical considering the employees would have more apps (Hence do more), Be more Productive (Not installing the screensaver of the day or the MS Virsu of the day), would be able to take home OS+Software Suite Home (Even if they had Windows as the package as described is cross platform and GPled/ MPLed the Interbase Public Liscense is the same as the Mozilla Public License), well basically should I go on?


Basically this could be done with 1/3-1/2 of your price and that's even if you go up to a FIC Sambas instead of FIC-Falcons (which would get you the 2 Ghz Intel).

Quote:

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Originally posted by NerdInside
I hear OpenOffice looks like Microsoft Word (I think it looks like Corel but bleh). In fact, OpenOffice has better support for Microsofts own formats then Microsoft does.

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Agree with you there. Although Open office looks more like a cross between word and Word Perfect Office. I've used all three.

Quote:

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Originally posted by johnie
You didn't use all MS. You have MySQL as your DB. Likewise Nerd could have taken your config and used Linux and saved cash.

First off- Besides those most obvious bits there...

1. You are using Intel Celerons where you could be using AMD CPU's and saving cash.

2. Office Small Biz + Publisher isn't likely to please everyone. SMall Biz is Excel + Word + Outlook+ Publisher http://www.microsoft.com/office/howt...einstalled.asp . Your employees will want FP, Acrobat, Access, and PPT. WHy didn't you just opp for Corel Productivity- It gives you more? Even better yet why not Opt for Open Office, which does more? Likewise if you Opt for Open Office you could didtribute it to your employees for the cost of burning a CD to take home. Furthermore some employees will want Visio.

3. You also left out the Corp support Liscense for the MS products. If your a Biz MS charges you more for support. You also left out Lisc 6.0 agreements for upgrades. As a corp you won't be able to upgrade without paying a yearly fee to MS.

4. Becuase of 1 and 2 you are better off using Dia + Open Office + Mozilla (With Calander Plugin) + MySQL or Firebird http://firebird.sourceforge.net/ (Interbase) desktop connected for access like aplications. The equivilancy that I just gave you is MS Office Developer + Visio On the sever you are best of Apacghe and PHP- My SQL if you want but Firebird/Interbase is a better SQL Database and is still free if you go with Firebird over the new Interbase.

5. Honestly, for office workers, They don't need 2 GHZ machines. I would substitute for FIC Falcon Computers 933-1 GHZ (ITX or Mini-ITX Based machines) running a custom Linux http://www.fic.com.tw/product/sff/intro_falcon.aspx
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=...Froogle+Search

(The Falcon CR51 goes for about $250 per machine outfitted with CDRom, Floppy, and HD goes for an average of $250. The base Price of a Falcon is $99-$150!!)

If they need more power then go with the FIC-Samba (P4 machines start around $400)

There are many reasons for this.

A. Its highly customizable. You can make it all look the same for everyone. Likewise you can distribute them with only Open Office, Dia, MySQL or Firebird Client, Mozilla, and perhaps Cinepaint/FilmGimp. Becuase most Office Workrs won't know how to install things on Linux they won't be inclined to fiddle. Likewise you won't have to worry about the Email Virus of the week.

B. You can give them the OS to work with at home.

C. Cost- Obviously...

D. Without purchasing Corp Support Licsense from MS you will be self supporting anyhow or paying close to 300 per support call to MS. Likewise without a Lic 6.0 agreement the cost to upgrade your set up is going to be sky high. Finaly you won't have to worry about the BSA Audits which are both time consuming and costly.

5. I'd use a FIC Janus Internally for Mail and storage http://www.fic.com.tw/product/server/janus.aspx

They are cheap , has on board Raid (Levels 0+1,0,or 1) , reliable, and its compact design is made for small bussiness.

6. The web site- I'd source that out to a reliable vendor. However... If it couldn't be sourced again I'd use LAMP (Linux Apache MySQL or Firebird and PHP) as it has a higher proven uptime than your solution. As you stated it has a such a high load I wouldn't put it on a Janus but then again I'd probably use Sun Blades also over Wintels. I surely wouldn't trust what you have for it. I would use a Boreas 1U Server

Cost Savings...

Falcons with Custom Linux with aplications descibed above...

$25,000 vs $113,850.00 just for grins I decided to price it with FIC Sambas 2 GHZ P4's and it was only 60,000

The savings here is astronomical considering the employees would have more apps (Hence do more), Be more Productive (Not installing the screensaver of the day or the MS Virsu of the day), would be able to take home OS+Software Suite Home (Even if they had Windows as the package as described is cross platform and GPled/ MPLed the Interbase Public Liscense is the same as the Mozilla Public License), well basically should I go on?


Basically this could be done with 1/3-1/2 of your price and that's even if you go up to a FIC Sambas instead of FIC-Falcons (which would get you the 2 Ghz Intel).

---

my vote goes to that guy!

*looks around*

*head explodes*

You didn't use all MS. You have MySQL as your DB. Likewise Nerd could have taken your config and used Linux and saved cash.

Look again...I include both MySQL and MS Sql Server.

1. You are using Intel Celerons where you could be using AMD CPU's and saving cash.
True, but in this case I used the compaq baseline business PC. AMD was not an option, and wouldn't have saved me a whole lot anyway.

2. Office Small Biz + Publisher isn't likely to please everyone. SMall Biz is Excel + Word + Outlook+ Publisher http://www.microsoft.com/office/howt...einstalled.asp . Your employees will want FP, Acrobat, Access, and PPT. WHy didn't you just opp for Corel Productivity- It gives you more? Even better yet why not Opt for Open Office, which does more? Likewise if you Opt for Open Office you could didtribute it to your employees for the cost of burning a CD to take home. Furthermore some employees will want Visio.
We agreed that our employees would be doing basic word proccessing and email....they don't need access or visio.

OpenOffice is nice...but I personally would prefer to pay for MS Office. I just like it better.

I've also found Open Office harder to use. I build a lot of computers for people, and one of the price saving experiments I've done is to switch in OpenOffice for MS Office...but I've found the learning curve much longer, and the satisfaction hurt.

3. You also left out the Corp support Liscense for the MS products. If your a Biz MS charges you more for support. You also left out Lisc 6.0 agreements for upgrades. As a corp you won't be able to upgrade without paying a yearly fee to MS.
This was a here and now scenario. It isn't supposed to account for eventual upgrade costs.

Don't need support licenses...most of this stuff can be done in house or online.

5. Honestly, for office workers, They don't need 2 GHZ machines. I would substitute for FIC Falcon Computers 933-1 GHZ (ITX or Mini-ITX Based machines) running a custom Linux http://www.fic.com.tw/product/sff/intro_falcon.aspx
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=...Froogle+Search

Honestly these would also require upgrading on a much more agressive schedule...plus, slow computers frusturate workers regardless of what software they use...they lower productivity and job satsifaction.

A. Its highly customizable. You can make it all look the same for everyone. Likewise you can distribute them with only Open Office, Dia, MySQL or Firebird Client, Mozilla, and perhaps Cinepaint/FilmGimp. Becuase most Office Workrs won't know how to install things on Linux they won't be inclined to fiddle. Likewise you won't have to worry about the Email Virus of the week.
Linux being harder to use is not a plus.

It's a minus...you don't want to retrain employees who put Windows on their resume, just for the fun of it.

Windows XP Professional is a stable operating sytem, and it is oftentimes worth the price to buy something that is more useable...over a free alternative that doesn't really offer anything above that of windows.

6. The web site- I'd source that out to a reliable vendor. However... If it couldn't be sourced again I'd use LAMP (Linux Apache MySQL or Firebird and PHP) as it has a higher proven uptime than your solution. As you stated it has a such a high load I wouldn't put it on a Janus but then again I'd probably use Sun Blades also over Wintels. I surely wouldn't trust what you have for it. I would use a Boreas 1U Server
That isn't inline with our scenario.

Clif

>>You didn't use all MS. You have MySQL as your DB. Likewise Nerd could have taken your config and used Linux and saved cash.

Look again...I include both MySQL and MS Sql Server.


Indeed you are cheeting. You should be using Visual Studio.Net or MS Web Matrix or Visual Fox Pro here. In an all MS house you would not be using MY SQL


>>2. Office Small Biz + Publisher isn't likely to please everyone. SMall Biz is Excel + Word + Outlook+ Publisher http://www.microsoft.com/office/how...reinstalled.asp . Your employees will want FP, Acrobat, Access, and PPT. WHy didn't you just opp for Corel Productivity- It gives you more? Even better yet why not Opt for Open Office, which does more? Likewise if you Opt for Open Office you could didtribute it to your employees for the cost of burning a CD to take home. Furthermore some employees will want Visio.
We agreed that our employees would be doing basic word proccessing and email....they don't need access or visio.

OpenOffice is nice...but I personally would prefer to pay for MS Office. I just like it better.

I've also found Open Office harder to use. I build a lot of computers for people, and one of the price saving experiments I've done is to switch in OpenOffice for MS Office...but I've found the learning curve much longer, and the satisfaction hurt.


The learnin curve from going to XP and Office XP is the same as going to Linux and Open Office. Did you offer training? Probably not.

Dell, HP, and Sony disagree with you also. They have dumped MS Office/Works + Word on their low end machines for Corel WP Productivity suite.

Your employees will want a PowerPoint and Access Trust me.

>> 3. You also left out the Corp support Liscense for the MS products. If your a Biz MS charges you more for support. You also left out Lisc 6.0 agreements for upgrades. As a corp you won't be able to upgrade without paying a yearly fee to MS.
This was a here and now scenario. It isn't supposed to account for eventual upgrade costs.

Don't need support licenses...most of this stuff can be done in house or online.


Then it doesn't figure in the switch to Linux either. I believe you were critizing Nerds example on that. Likewise they would be able to provide Linux training.

>>5. Honestly, for office workers, They don't need 2 GHZ machines. I would substitute for FIC Falcon Computers 933-1 GHZ (ITX or Mini-ITX Based machines) running a custom Linux http://www.fic.com.tw/product/sff/intro_falcon.aspx
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q...=Froogle+Search

Honestly these would also require upgrading on a much more agressive schedule...plus, slow computers frusturate workers regardless of what software they use...they lower productivity and job satsifaction


A Linux 1 GHZ 128 MB Machine would not be any slower than XP Pro on the same config as you gave. Actually Linux is 2 Times faster than XP on the same hardware. This is becuase of the very high overhead of XP. It loads Media Player, MSIM, Outlook, ECT ECT into memeory on start. For this reason you would want at least 256 MB RAM on a windows XP where as you would get the same performance from 9X or 2K.

LIkewise how exactly are you going to upgrade an ITX board? The LAN, Video, Sound, and CPU are all soldered to the board and they only have 1 PCI? You obviosly don't grasp the ITX and Mini-ITX platforms one bit.

I found a Vendor that will sell Falcons with 128 MB Ram, 933 Mhz CPU, 20 GB HD, CD Rom, Floppy, and Full Modem filling the PCI along with Key Board, Mouse, and External speakers for $249- In other words only missing a OS. This is what I based the Quote on. How would that need upgrading?

Furthermore with Falcons in there your employees wouldn't be tempted to lay the computer flat on the desktop and then placing the Monitor on top of it. This causes ergonomic problems http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/computerwor...cat/index.html which would cost even more money to the employee if enough employees complained and then OSHA came in and fined under the General Duty Clause.

To be honest what office workers need is the Microtell SYSMARK Bare Bones 1.1 GHZ $199 Machine. These babys are made for offices.

Why?

Built in Lan, No Floppy, and No Built in Modem and they are $199. In an office setting you don't want a Floppy Drive or CD Burner on all the machines. Likewise you don't want employees storing large amounts of Data locally. Why?

1. You don't want employees to have the ability to take your company secretes home with them. By not including a floppy they can't slip in a floppy and take super secrete project X home and distribute it. Likewise with only 10 GB on a HD they will keep all their data where it belongs - on the Company Server. If they need to work on something at home they can send it through the monitored Email system. That makes 2 control points which your system lacks.

2. I paired the Microtels with the Microtel 17" Monitor an the cost was $48,000 for 150 pairs.

3. Your employes are there to do Office work not watch video or do MM Creation. Obviosly the ones that will need to do MM Creation would need a higher end machine but you would only need to provide them with it and not everyone down the line.

4. The Falcon and ITX has another huge benifit we haven't talked about... Lower power consumption and lower heat emission. The Falcons only draw 20 Wats of Power!! This is versus the hundreds that your celerons would. Likewise they don't produce as much heat that would be required to be removed. This is a double price saver as you have lower Utility bills.

>>A. Its highly customizable. You can make it all look the same for everyone. Likewise you can distribute them with only Open Office, Dia, MySQL or Firebird Client, Mozilla, and perhaps Cinepaint/FilmGimp. Becuase most Office Workrs won't know how to install things on Linux they won't be inclined to fiddle. Likewise you won't have to worry about the Email Virus of the week.
Linux being harder to use is not a plus.

It's a minus...you don't want to retrain employees who put Windows on their resume, just for the fun of it.

Windows XP Professional is a stable operating sytem, and it is oftentimes worth the price to buy something that is more useable...over a free alternative that doesn't really offer anything above that of windows.

You will have to retrain from Going from WIn 9X/NT/2K up to XP anyhow- AT least that has been my experience. Either that or you will have to spend extra time teaching them how to set it in Classic Mode, Mqaking the Toolbars behave like 9X/2K/XP, and turning off all the unneeded junk in XP.

Likewise you don't want your employees IM all day and the new Outlook Client blocks .doc, .pdf, ECT by defualt. You have to go in and change the registry to get it not to. Likewise the new Outlook will block HTML and Images by defualt!! Simply put why bother with Outlok!!! Even with WIndows you are better off using the Mozilla/Netscape Mail Client. Minatour is in beta and wil;l soon be in full production so if for some obscene reason you would want to keep IE but dump Outlook you could.

Finally I strongly disagree with you here on Linbux being harder to use. A good Linux Distro would use KDE or Gnome in a Familure config- Heck you can make it look like WIn 9X/NT/2K and nobody would be the wiser until they tried to install on their own product X or screensaver Y. Look you don't want office employees installing their own software. With XP you have to write a well crafted crafted security policy. WIth Linux you wouldn't have to worry about it. The mindless would just use what is installed and those who would work to install it would have a good reason to go throufgh the effort and would probably know how to force IE to install whatever they want on a locked down XP machine using a well known and un patched whole in IE anyhow!!

Likewise Linux has a lot better security and to write a security Policy on Linux which would prevent users from installing anuathorized software is easier in Linux than XP- Which as pointed out earlier is impossible due to;

1. Holes in IE that have yet to be patched which allows IE to install everything.

2. IE not being able to be removed from the OS.

Finally with as many security alerts and patches their have been for XP I wouldn't call it mature or stable.

>> 6. The web site- I'd source that out to a reliable vendor. However... If it couldn't be sourced again I'd use LAMP (Linux Apache MySQL or Firebird and PHP) as it has a higher proven uptime than your solution. As you stated it has a such a high load I wouldn't put it on a Janus but then again I'd probably use Sun Blades also over Wintels. I surely wouldn't trust what you have for it. I would use a Boreas 1U Server
That isn't inline with our scenario.

And I note that I would use SUN Blades running solaris over your scenario. If I were to use the PC Platform I would use LAMP on it over your OS and would not use the server. I think I mentioned I would use a Boreas 1U dual Xeon didn't I? I also noted I wouldn't trust a Janus on a high traffic site- at least not as high traffic as Amazon. Actually on a site as High Trafficked as Amazon I wouldn't trust 1 server period but if I would it wouldn't be what you picked out and it sure wouldn't be on WIndows!!! Heck amazon doesn't use WIndows for its server so that should tell you something. ACtually for something that Big I would only trust something very mature and trusted such a IBM or SUN servers.

Quote:

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Visual Fox Pro

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Visual Fox Pro?

Wouldn't that be stepping back a couple years?

Just buy visual studio, tons o bundles.

Quote:

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Originally posted by ViRGo_RK
Visual Fox Pro?

Wouldn't that be stepping back a couple years?

Just buy visual studio, tons o bundles.

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Twould indeed...no one in their right mind is going to use Fox.

Doesn't Visual Studio cost much much more?