Hugo Chavez... madman or sign of the times?

Just caught a report on Hugo Chavez and how he's getting comfy with Cuba - idolizes Fidel Castro a bit - and has begun buying/collecting arms and russian airplanes in an "arm race", locking up politcal opponents... and of course spouting out the typical anti-american stuff and charging the US with trying to assassinate him, what not.

Also didn't know that Venezeula owned Citgo gas company either.

But with that said... is he really a mad man, or just a sign of the times? It just seems like everybody is pissed off about something, and usually the US is at the root of most of it. Blame capitalism or blame foreign policies...

or blame Bush...

ok... politics thread. oops. this'll get derailed in 12 posts or less. this just sorta caught me off-guard as I didn't know the scope of what was going on down there other than the few social upheavals that happened in Venezeula, and as somebody that's been there in the past... sorta amazed.

Oil oil oil. We want it cheap and they don't want to be poor.

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Originally Posted by gerbick

But with that said... is he really a mad man, or just a sign of the times?[/size]

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Mad man. Nothing new. The ploy he is using has been used on peoples for at least a century now.

I want to get out of here so bad, yet I'm exiled in my own country.

Two years ago I signed the request for a presidential recall referendum. The list of all the people that signed against him was released by one of his congressmen, Luis Tascon, and that list has been used against us since then.

In my case, I haven't been able to get a passport because of that list. To get a passport I need a valid venezuelan ID card, called Cédula de Identidad (CI). Since mine was expired, I had to get one of those, yet every time I went to the immigration and identification department (DIEX), they looked me up on the list, saw that I was there, then flatly said that I couldn't apply for a CI unless I signed a document requesting to the electoral council the removal of my signature from the referendum request. That was before the referendum, after the referendum they just said I couldn't have a CI. Now two years later and after several failed attempts, I finally got my CI so I could apply for a passport, except that they make you stand in line on the street for at least 2 days (we have on average 100 murders daily in Caracas, so I think you know why that's not a great idea) since they only hand out 50 per day, and they still look you up on the damn list.

Now we've received news that the cuban government is going to offer consulting services for the DIEX, so I suppose the process isn't going to get any easier.

So you see, I'm not wanted here since I'm not chavista, yet I can't leave either.

Chavez is just a democratically elected dictator. He controls every single power in the country and he does what he pleases and abuses his powers whenever he wants. Until last month, he used to say that he wanted to rule until 2021 (his term ends on 2006, with a possible reelection for 6 more years), but now he says he wants to stay until 2030. Most people believe he's going to reform the constitution to allow unlimited reelections.

Bah, I could go on and on and on.

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Originally Posted by gerbick

charging the US with trying to assassinate him[/size]

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I'm not suprised and at the rate his mouth is moving and the content it's spitting, I believe he will get killed.

the reverand Pat Roberts from the 700 club said (on the 700 club) that the US should just go down there and assasinate him....LOL kinda funny hearing a man of god say something like that.

dude, you saw that too!? I caught that right after I posted... I caught the report I was talking about a night earlier on the headline news or something.

yeah, that is freakin' crazy about pat rob.
why would he make a public statement like that?

Robertson is a loon.

gesteves, I'm really sorry to hear that man. That is sh*t.

That's a bit out of context. Not that I'm a big defender of Pat or anything. But, I heard the audio and he basically repeated Hugo's claim that there is an assassination plot and said something like "I didn't know about a plot, but we should go ahead with it!" I thought it was pretty clear that he was being sarcastic.

Gesteves, sorry to hear. What do you think is the best possibility for a positive change?

I caught the same BS on the 700 club..

funny how they even changed their uniforms to mimic the CUBAN "military"

madman? maybe/perhaps... is it ALL unwarrented? NO WAY! I mean from the view point of another "LEADER" how do you think the US is viewed? Maybe he thinks "whats to stop the US from coming here and doing the same thing they did in IRAQ?" I have oil...they want it...Am I next on the list?

if he thinks that, he is a madman for sure. i'm pretty sure he's playing the idea up to rally support for his agenda. i hadn't thought of it that way until you mentioned it, but i wonder how much wild anti-bushism is responsible for the success of Hugo.

it's not as much anti-Bush as anti-US. Lots and lots of people in latinamerica (I'd even say it could be a majority) see the US politics were and are somehow responsible of the economic situation there (from puppet governments in the 50's 60's to market monopoly nowadays, or threatening to stop buying certain products from a country if that country doesn't agree with the condition the US impose in other products). It's not all about oil.

There's also a general believe (Bush just makes it even more popular) that americans are stupid. And could aunderstand why that is, because the image of the normal american for the people outside the US, is what you see on TV: survivor, surreal life, the real life, and all those reality shows and sitcoms. Anyway, that and the fact that generally latins think that gringos (americans) simply don't care about the outside word (man, if you know how many people have told me if Ecuador is a city in Mexico, you'd be amazed) has turn into a certain hate against the US.

Any politician that can go with that trend: "hey f*** the gringos", for sure will be popular.

Now, don't try to discuss these beliefs, at least not with me. I'm just telling you what others in other countries think of the US....and well, if you research why they think that way, you'll see most of they're beliefs are well founded.

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Originally Posted by indivision

That's a bit out of context. Not that I'm a big defender of Pat or anything. But, I heard the audio and he basically repeated Hugo's claim that there is an assassination plot and said something like "I didn't know about a plot, but we should go ahead with it!" I thought it was pretty clear that he was being sarcastic.

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"We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability," Robertson said.

"We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator," he continued. "It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

Doesn't sound like sarcasm to me...

K.

So what part of Mexico is Ecuador in anyways?




:)

Actually, I think he just wants to provoke the US to the point where they issue a trade embargo like the one against Cuba. That way he can play the part of the "victim" against the evil US empire, and blame the embargo for the poverty, just like he keeps blaming the general strike that happened almost three years ago for all of today's problems. I mean, last month a huge, 15 meters deep, gaping hole appeared on one of Venezuela's main highways:

http://www.unionradio.com.ve/Imagene...8114141657.jpg

And they blamed the strike for it.

indivision, what can be done? Well, we have legislative elections in december, to elect the National Assembly's congressmen. Right now, Chavez controls a little over half of it. If the opposition gets its act together we might have a chance of controlling the NA. That might make things a bit difficult for Chavez, since he has used that slight advantage to pass some very controversial laws. For example, the Supreme Tribunal of Justice used to have 20 magistrates. About half of them proved to be mostly pro-government, and the other half not. Since they couldn't remove those magistrates that weren't openly pro-government, they just passed a law to increase the number of magistrates to 32, and they appointed pro-government magistrates to fill the new posts. Now, since this law involves another government power, by law it should be an organic law (art. 203 of the constitution), and it can only be approved by 2/3 of the Assembly, yet they managed to pass it with only 1/2 of the Assembly. If we manage to control at least half of the Assembly, at least we can make sure those things don't happen again.

Funny anecdote: I had a Cuban math professor that escaped from Cuba after Castro's revolution and came to Venezuela and lived here for decades. After seeing the events of April 11th, 2002 (when a huge opposition march was stopped short of the presidential palace, a bunch of people got killed by snipers, Chavez was removed from power and reinstated two days later), he just left the country. When we asked the Mathematics Director of my university what had happened to that professor, she just told us he was "terrified" (that was the word she used, "aterrado") , due to the similarities between Castro and Chavez. I have friends with cuban families that also came to Venezuela after the revolution, and they feel the same way.

About Robertson's comments, I don't agree with him. As much as I despise Chavez, the last thing I want is to turn him into a martyr. I want to see him disgraced.

Besides, those kind of comments only increase his popularity and give more credibility to his anti-US rants and assassination plots. He's just starved for attention.

Ha! I remember a few years ago he claimed he just escaped an attempt to shoot down his airplane, and he offered proof: they supossedly found, near the airport where his plane takes off:

- A bazooka (it was an anti-tank bazooka, not an AA missile, though).
- Pictures of Chavez (I guess the assassins didn't know who to kill, so they hoped he would just take a peek out the window).
- Cell phone and address book with names and phone numbers of major opposition figures :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by deadbeat

"We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability," Robertson said.

"We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator," he continued. "It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

Doesn't sound like sarcasm to me...

K.

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You're right. I stand corrected. The audio I heard made it sound a lot more innocent.

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Originally Posted by gesteves

Funny anecdote: I had a Cuban math professor that escaped from Cuba after Castro's revolution and came to Venezuela and lived here for decades. After seeing the events of April 11th, 2002 (when a huge opposition march was stopped short of the presidential palace, a bunch of people got killed by snipers, Chavez was removed from power and reinstated two days later), he just left the country. When we asked the Mathematics Director of my university what had happened to that professor, she just told us he was "terrified" (that was the word she used, "aterrado") , due to the similarities between Castro and Chavez. I have friends with cuban families that also came to Venezuela after the revolution, and they feel the same way.

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No. Communism usually only gets good reviews from it's leaders and US professors. :) I hope you guys do take advantage of the peoples remaining powers before it all goes. I agree about Pat's comments. He's just a nut. I heard that someone asked Chavez about the comment and he replied, "I have no idea who that man is!"

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Originally Posted by argonauta

Any politician that can go with that trend: "hey f*** the gringos", for sure will be popular.

Now, don't try to discuss these beliefs, at least not with me. I'm just telling you what others in other countries think of the US....and well, if you research why they think that way, you'll see most of they're beliefs are well founded.

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That's unfortunate that they think that way. Do you believe that blaming the US for Latin America's economic condition or that most Americans are stupid (assuming in comparison to Latin Americans) is well founded?

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Originally Posted by argonauta

it's not as much anti-Bush as anti-US. Lots and lots of people in latinamerica (I'd even say it could be a majority) see the US politics were and are somehow responsible of the economic situation there (from puppet governments in the 50's 60's to market monopoly nowadays, or threatening to stop buying certain products from a country if that country doesn't agree with the condition the US impose in other products). It's not all about oil.

There's also a general believe (Bush just makes it even more popular) that americans are stupid. And could aunderstand why that is, because the image of the normal american for the people outside the US, is what you see on TV: survivor, surreal life, the real life, and all those reality shows and sitcoms. Anyway, that and the fact that generally latins think that gringos (americans) simply don't care about the outside word (man, if you know how many people have told me if Ecuador is a city in Mexico, you'd be amazed) has turn into a certain hate against the US.

Any politician that can go with that trend: "hey f*** the gringos", for sure will be popular.

Now, don't try to discuss these beliefs, at least not with me. I'm just telling you what others in other countries think of the US....and well, if you research why they think that way, you'll see most of they're beliefs are well founded.

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In other words, you agree with that sentiment but you don't have the will to argue for those beliefs with other Americans. Why can't we discuss these beliefs with you? You brought it up. It's not just what people from other countries think, it's what YOU think too isn't it. I mean, you said so yourself that its well founded. I think that answers your question Indivision.

The ironic thing is, if South Americans think that people from the US are so "stupid" because of all of our reality TV shows, then what does that make South Americans look like? Incredibly dense.

How can you generalize about the intelligence of a country with an almost 300 million populous based on a few episodes of Survivor and the Real World? What should I infer about Latin Americans based on their horribly produced films, TV shows, and cheesy soap operas? They're all just dumb eh?

It makes YOU look stupid to actually think that the social retards that are chosen for dramatic reality TV are in fact a fair representation of the average American. They're not. They're mostly idiots and we Americans make fun of them too, if not more than you. Those people are chosen for a specific reason each and every time - dramatic effect. It sells. People like watching other people make fools of themselves. Welcome to the Real World.

I hope you don't think people like that don't exist in your perfect country where everyone is just so intelligent. You're all just victims of US economic and political oppression. Spare me the BS.

Maybe you misunderstood him? I don't think he said that what he stated was *his* belief, just the general sentiment in the region.

Anyway, I can't speak for Argonauta, but I agree with the fact that it is the general sentiment in my region, Venezuela, yet it isn't my belief. There's a huge amount of xenophobia in my country, especially against Americans, to the point where it sometimes extends to caucasians. I've been abused verbally on more than one ocassion simply because I'm white, thus I must be a Escuálido (that's what they call opposition supporters, I can't remember the english word right now), a traitor, a coup-monger, a rat that wants to abandon ship, and so on. I've been called all those things even before I express my political position.

Back on topic, yes, there is a huge amount of anti-americanism here. I can't speak for Ecuador, but in Venezuela's case, it's not caused by american tv shows, it's fueled by the President himself. He blames most of Venezuela's economic problems on past governments (even though he's been in power for six years), the strike two and a half years ago, and the imperialistic oppression of the United States. He keeps saying that the US (and the world) is meddling all the time in venezuelan affairs, yet he has done things like asking the american people to overthrow Bush, he has called Bush and ***hole on national television, among hundreds of other inflamatory comments he makes every day in his cadenas. A cadena, by the way, is when he takes over the airwaves of every TV and radio station in the country and he broadcasts his speeches on every single TV channel and radio station, sometimes for up to six hours at a time. So much for freedom of speech.

Again, Robertson's remarks will only fuel more anti-american statements from Chavez. Please, please, don't give him the attention he craves.

Gerbick, when did you visit Venezuela? I'm just curious.

I've visited plenty of times... but mostly as a child to teen years... so... quite a while ago. Having family in Trinidad is the biggest reason why we ever went to Caracas too...