Licensing vs. Sponsorship

Hi all

Okay, let me first say that in keeping with FK rules this thread will not involve any discussion about prices. Please keep it that way.

I simply want to say a few things about Flash game licensing and about this new buzzword "sponsorship". This has been discussed before on this forum, but reading this thread today along with an experience I had this week has prompted me to try to make a few things clear.

For those who don't know me I'm one of the guys behind Mousebreaker . We develop our own games and license them to clients, and we are also a games portal who licenses games from developers, so in some ways I'm able to see both sides of this issue.

Licensing
When you license a game, you are effectively giving permission to someone else to use it. There are many ways to do this - you can allow them to use it for one day on one URL, or you can allow them to use it forever on as many websites as they want. Or anywhere in between. And the money you charge for the license depends very much on the kind of use you are allowing them, and the number of sites it will appear on.

Also you can license your game exclusively or non-exclusively, meaning that you promise not to license it elsewhere or not. If you license a game non-exclusively to a site then you are free to license it to as many other sites as you wish, earning a license fee from each site.

Most importantly...

*** If you do not protect your game by locking it to a client's URL, then it will be picked up by many other games sites who will use your work without paying a license fee. MAKE SURE YOU USE URL CHECKING. ***

"Unlimited use for a set period"
sc2071 mentioned this on another thread , saying that a couple of sites wanted "unlimited use for a set period". If you grant some one this permission you are allowing them to distribute your game far and wide over the internet, allowing any other site to use/host it, albeit for a "set period". If you agree to this, your game will appear all over the place - and you will only have been paid once. Please be aware of this, and CHARGE ACCORDINGLY.

"Sponsorship"
Several games portals now offer "sponsorship" deals. They will pay you an amount of money if you will allow them to distribute your game all over the web - with their logo plastered all over it. Again - if you do this please be aware of what you are doing and CHARGE ACCORDINGLY.

In my opinion - and it is only my opinion - game "sponsorship" is a very poor deal for any developer. As part of the deal they will insist that you can't publish your game anywhere on the web without their logo.

You are basically granting them a license to distribute your game globally with their logo, and agreeing not to license it elsewhere (without their logo). It's a rip-off.


I realise I'm in danger of sounding like a wise old man here - and many of you will know all this already. But I think it's worth stating again and again:

* PROTECT YOUR WORK OR IT WILL APPEAR EVERYWHERE BEYOND YOUR CONTROL

* THINK VERY CAREFULLY ABOUT WHETHER YOU WANT TO GET YOUR GAME SPONSORED (AND HOW MANY SITES IT WILL APPEAR ON) - OR WHETHER YOU WANT TO LICENSE IT, AND UNDER WHAT TERMS.

* CHARGE ACCORDINGLY.

Cheers
Rich

This is quiet an informative read, thank you very much for this!

greets

Handy stuff. However, Flash games cant get liscensed, I mean, who has the sorta money? If so :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by corky§urprise

Handy stuff. However, Flash games cant get liscensed, I mean, who has the sorta money? If so :)

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by richardpendry

We develop our own games and license them to clients, and we are also a games portal who licenses games from developers, so in some ways I'm able to see both sides of this issue.

---

Good post Rich, always nice for the board to hear from a gaming portal directly, and excellent advice for everyone here.

Squize.

Thanks for the explanation. When trying to find flash game developers it’s sometimes hard to explain exactly what kind of license or sponsorship you want, but this gives a better definition of each type.

Although I am still not sure i understand the differnce between a sponsorship and an unlimited license? Both can be exclusive or non-exclusive right?

Very good post.

The thing that can be misleading with the word 'sponsorship' is that they only add an ad, and allow you to distribute it where you want, just with their ad on it.

But the newer term of sponsorship is really exclusive rights, atleast for the actual game(not sure about sequels and what not).

What would really be interesting, is to have a 'sponsorship' company where you could sell it to game portals, but get paid for each selling by both companies.

Just a thought.

What kind of sale includes the source code? Is that just an extra cost ontop of a sale or is that usually not included?

Sponsorship deals work like this:

A game developer allows a site to “sponsor” their game for $X. For that price (usually pretty low IMO) the sponsor website gets to flood the web with as many branded copies of the game as they want.

Yes, the developer will see his game everywhere, but he will only have been paid for it once, and probably not very much.

Also, as part of the deal the developer agrees not to license/sell/distribute their game to any other site without that sponsor's logo and links. So basically he is agreeing NOT to license it to anyone else.

Therefore ALL sponsorship deals are exclusive. It’s basically an exclusive distribution licence by the back door.

I'm really just trying to encourage developers not to undersell themselves.

Whatever you're selling - a one-off non-exclusive licence, an exclusive license to just one website, your whole source code bundled up with a bag of chips and your first born - think about what you are selling, and make sure you are getting a fair price.

Rich

Yup, I agree with that last post. I was recently approached for a "sponsorship" of one or more of my games. I quoted a "fair" price, and then of course the deal did not go through.

The way I look at it, if you're willing to have your game "spread all over the web", then you might as well do it with YOUR OWN logo, YOUR OWN links, and therefore reap the rewards of traffic back to your own site. Take my word for it. In the long run, it pays off much more than a few hundred bucks up front.

The exception to this I would say is if you can negotiate co-sponsorship. This way, you let another party get a reward for their hard work of spreading the game out there, but you don't lose any benefits either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moe8585

What kind of sale includes the source code? Is that just an extra cost ontop of a sale or is that usually not included?

---

Its not so much about if source code is included or not, more about what the buyer can do with that source code. If the license agreement says they can use the source code to produce similar games without paying you again then it should cost extra. If they can only use it to change their logo or highscore code then source code can be included for free.

In both cases, make sure it is written into license agreement for what purposes source code is included.

generally thumbs up on the thread.
just wanted to say i disagree on the suggestion one should hand out the source code and then write in the licence agreement for what it can be used in cases where you don´t want it to be used for something else than changing logo and hs component.
If you want to sell the source code,sell the source code. If you only want to allow adding a different hs component or logo,you really shouldn´t hand out the source code.
You should then either make the parts where the hs comp or logo sits as own assets and only hand out source for those rather than for the full game or you should modify those parts to client wish yourself.
I´m saying this because all too often i have heard from developers i know that clients getting games with source code "just to add own hs component" are then modifying lots of other things without asking or paying again.

I agree with you tom.

I would be very hesitant about letting a client have your source code because they simply "want to change their logo or add a high score mechanism". In that situation I would suggest they ask the developer to make the changes.

If they really want to work on the game themselves then send them a .fla with most of the game code removed, and ask them to return it to you for publishing when they're done.

If you let a client have your source code, then they can easily use it - or parts of it - for a different game without you knowing. And it can be a very difficult thing to prove.

Selling/licensing a url-locked swf for use on a website is one thing.

Selling a swf to someone to distribute all over the web, or selling your source code is something very different. And should cost them way more.

Rich

Keeping source fla is overrated in my opinion. You still live in time 5 years back when swf was secure and you could of found tutorials how to hide pictures in swf files to avoid them being copied. These days anything can be changed or taken from swf so there is not much point to keep source fla anymore. If you are suspecting the client is not honest with you then you should not do business with them at all. But if someone wants to change the swf file then its as easy as changing fla.

I very much doubt any kind of more complicated games then click-fast-to-get-points can be made from someone elses code. Being able to understand code is much more difficult then most people imagine, and if you know Flash well enough to change and use parts from 2000+ code then you most likely can write code that does same thing yourself.

Like I said before, write it on the agreement, what can be done with source fla and what can not. If agreement is not followed then get a lawyer and sue them. The matter of selling swf or fla is irrelevant as those are basically same thing and both can be edited same way. Actually, you should get lawyer before signing any agreements at all, let your lawyer write you a license agreement or at least let the lawyer check the agreement proposed by the client. Of course, you should understand what you are agreeing with. Im afraid most people are quite dumb in these matters and its not easiest task to understand 20+ pages of legal text.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tonypa

If you are suspecting the client is not honest with you then you should not do business with them at all.

---

I agree with you completely here tonypa.

BUT I think most developers sometimes make a mistake, trust the wrong people and get ripped off by them. It's certainly happened to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tonypa

if someone wants to change the swf file then its as easy as changing fla.

---

Not necessarily. By giving someone your source code you are making it very easy for them if they wish to reuse your work. If you only give someone a swf - and do what is necessary to make it hard to decompile and use - then you stand less chance of being ripped off.

I began this thread to try to make people a little more aware of what rights they are giving away when they allow a site to "sponsor" their game cheaply. I still think that allowing a game to be sponsored, or selling a game with source code is something that no developer should rush into.

Cheers
Rich

I see a few things different again,tonypa
First,sure it makes sense to kep the source fla. That something can be copied doesn´t mean one has to give it away for free to a client.
Sure,your assets can be taken away easily,even from an swf,but then,if you have unique graphics,it would be quite obvious seeing them in something else.
But using a encryption tool you can make your code hard to read and even get var names etc altered so they don´t make much sense to the reader anymore. It gets way more painful and time intensive to reuse your code somewhere else than as if it was available in pure clean (maybe even commented) form.
Trusting a client is one thing,not provocing him to abuse your content is something else important.
Its like the story of having having your purse in your trousers instead of putting your purse on the street and then checking if people are trustworthy enough to not take it from the street.
I agree that the more complex a software is,the more knowledge/background info it takes someone else to UNDERSTAND it. Still ,when code is written in clean structured way i´d say it takes way less knowledge to understand it enough to be able to reuse it than to come up with it yourself.
Its like many pupils in a math class can understand the formulas explained to them so they can work with them,but most wouldn´t have come up with those formulas themselves or at least it would take them way longer to do so.
That´s why in the commercial game business there are only few studios left who actually make their own 3d game engines,most licence one of the top notch engines and work on their games with those.
I see it as a bit unrealistic to say "do a contract which gives away your source and then get a lawyer before signing any contracts and then sue them once they abuse your source files".
First,you´d have to proove your source was used somewhere else.
Next,note that many people selling flash games (or just licences for those) these days are either pupils or don´t have their company for long.
For that reason or another many of those will probably not have the time or money to check for abused content or do lawsuits each day,so minimising the possible amount of abuse beforehand may be more sensmaking imho.

I thought it would be benefecial to sponsor a few of youre games if you had youre own website up. They would pay you for youre game then distribute it all over the web. It dosnt say you cant have youre logos and a link to youre site when sponsoring a game, so it would also drive traffic into youre site right??

It wouldn't drive a lot of traffic to your site.

If you were a game player would you rather follow the link to another game portal, which had loads of games, or to a developers site who at most would only have a handful ?

The only way to drive a ton of traffic your way is to do a really stunning game, and then you'd be pretty silly to sponsor it out.

Squize.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Squize

The only way to drive a ton of traffic your way is to do a really stunning game, and then you'd be pretty silly to sponsor it out.

---

The crux of the matter is, they win. (By win I mean get the most benefits)

oh . . .

Kinda, but it is all relative, and remember, they are paying. If you were buying something, you'd want more benefits :)

If you're 13 and someone offers you $200 for doing something you enjoy doing as a hobby ( Hmmmm that sounds filthy without actually meaning to for a change ) they you'll take it.

It's a question of how much you want and how much you need.

It is all very relative. A lot of the stuff which is sponsored is total dross. There's no way the developer would make a penny any other way, so why not ?

I've pretty much slipped off my high horse about people selling themselves short, and keeping prices low. For all my posts about it I don't think a single word I've said on the subject has had any real difference to anyone, so why bother ?
All the times I've dived into a thread where somebody has offered $50 for a game, and people have been tripping over themselves to undercut even that amount, total waste of time. The "client" obviously has no standards at all, and anyone stupid enough to offer to do a paid job for free ( For the "Experience" ? Go work down Burger King a couple of days a week for free then, experience customer care, team work, dealing with money, stock rotation and all the other stuff that goes with it ) isn't going to produce anything of any note anyway.

So if you're new to selling your Flash stuff, it won't hurt you to get your toes wet with sponsorship. Just do it with your eyes open. It's not a good deal, but it's the best you're going to get unless you write something pretty damn sweet.

Squize.

From what i have read, Licensing is the way to go.

Is there a site that can explain what a contract should say for flash games, like a draft or somthing that people can use and edit to there situation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomsamson

I see it as a bit unrealistic to say "do a contract which gives away your source and then get a lawyer before signing any contracts and then sue them once they abuse your source files".

---

Would it be better to sell your swf files without source fla, never consult lawyer and sign anything client has proposed? The fact that most people dont understand legal agreements and are willing to sign agreements without knowing the result is to me more worrying then keeping the source files.

As I see it, Flash itself has become quite complicated program to use. It may not be complicated to you, but if your client has same knowledge on Flash they probably wont bother buying your game at all, they would just program similar game from scratch. On the other hand, swf rippers have become extremely easy to use, they do not require huge knowledge of Flash, all you do is click some buttons and change some assets. If someone would want to modify your game it could be easier to modify swf directly without Flash.

I am not saying that you should spread your source files all over the world, all I am trying to point out here is that content of swf is not protected any more then fla is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gloo pot

Is there a site that can explain what a contract should say for flash games, like a draft or something that people can use and edit to there situation?

---

Yes, like lawyers give something for free :)
Its like asking for dentist to create "fix-your-own-teeth" site with free tutorials and advice.

Flash games are not different from other stuff. You could look around in Creative Commons site:
http://creativecommons.org/

Thanks tony, im checking it out now.

If you include the source with a deal you are in effect handing over your entire IP.

As games are coded a lot more modular these days, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine core routines being lifted from a game and re-used for other projects if you're including the source.

It's fair enough to say it's easy to rip and hack swf's, but if they're doing that they're breaking the law straight away. If you've included the source as part of the cost of your game it suddenly becomes very grey, esp. if the use for the source hasn't been covered in the contract.

Also it's a million times easier to re-work something from the original ( Commented code, with it's own folder structure ) than just from a fla generated from the swf.

As a rule we never hand over the source, and if there's no way to avoid that we have it in the contract that it's only for back-up purposes ( ie, if an amendment is needed and we've gone bust ).
It's a lot cheaper to employ a freelancer to re-work something from the source files than to hire an agency to re-work something.

Squize.

I am confused about something
Lets say some portal owner cames to you and says:Give me your game, i will put it in my site,everyone will see and you can license it.
But, the reason why someone would want to license your game is to attract more players to his own site and make money with banners
But this is what the first one is getting for free!Using your work!
----------
I am beginning to think everyone should have his own games portal

It depends how it's done.

Leason does that at pnF, and it works pretty well. He's done it so games are split between free and "premium" quality ones, the latter being the ones people pay to licence for their own site.

In effect Lee is a middle man for developers. He can reach a much larger audience than I could, or that I'd even want to bother doing.

The hook with pnF is that all the games are tied into his hi-score system, so it doesn't have as wide as base as other schemes, but you know that people have spent time and effort building up their sites and don't want just another shovelware site knocked out in frontpage. It's more web developers who want some good quality sticky content and can't afford to get a developer to do a bespoke game for them, it's not a 14 year old with a bit of free web space thinking they're going to be the next miniclip.

Squize.

I use mochiAds in my game, and it works pretty well. I get paid depending on how many people see it and I want to distribute my game all over the web to maximize my revenue. As far as I'm concerned, if they're good enough to steal my code, they're good enough to write their own, so I might as well give it to everyone before they can steal it.

Its better this way because if a million people see my game, I get paid at least as much as I would if a site had sponsored me and there is no risk of copyright infringement.

Point 1.

Dunno about which countries legislation you guys are talking here but to give you a real-case example that happened in our company like 3 years ago(Europe).

We made a film ad for a product, and as usual, got our gfx material protected by companies who's job it is and which doesn't cost anything (like paying 10 dollars once and you are protected all your creative life).

Then the company for which we made the film made a website and used the gfx of the film ad without asking, not even sending a box of chocolate.

Well we weren't too glad about that, and their financial ass still hurts today because of that - the person in charge of the deal in their company was sacked weeks after the events.

So I won't be worry about anyone trying to steal any of our creation - be more like encouraging them too :p


Point 2, seems like the original post is about "hey kids stop screwing our business by cuting the prize down" more than any wisdom to me. Which I can understand and respect, but then just say it straight...

Ain't too sure about making big bucks by licensing or sponsoring.

The way we made (some of) our money was by contacting companies that needed visual stuffs (comics, music,...) and show them some alpha and propose to adapt it to their needs. Those guys are usually happy with very simple point and click and when they are happy, they surely call back every months.

I would advice any kid around to go that way if they wanna make a living out of their flash skills and keep away from the licencing/sponsoring unless they want to make their mom proud because their game is on tons of website.

If you code your games wisely, you can re-use them to death and customers won't see a thing. We sold a pong - pong! for christ sake !!! - one year ago to one of our usual customers and he went WOW that's coooool!

Yeah we're bad...

so what... :mrpimp: