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A federal judge denied a U.S. government request that Google Inc. be ordered to hand over a sample of keywords customers use to search the Internet, but required on Friday that the company produce some Web addresses indexed in its system.
Heh. Not so sure it was anything Google won as much as the people of the US. They hand people over to the Chinese government so they can keep making money there.
Our government locks people up for no reason, steals their property, we keep politcal prisoners, and we practice torture on them. Six of one, half dozen of the other.
so you're moving to cuba? ;)
Do they hand people over to the Chinese government? I thought they just restricted the scope of search on Google China so people could only access approved sites.Quote:
Originally Posted by indivision
actually, i cant find anything verifying that they do that. i thought thats what they were saying on a program i saw recently but it may have just been the censoring.Quote:
Originally Posted by aversion
i think they were talking about this case during the story: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,3...9216739,00.htm
and that was Yahoo.
Why would I want to do that? Better the devil you know...Quote:
Originally Posted by indivision
And all four of the big players in China were in a grilling session in a congressional hearing about two weeks ago. Google, Yahoo, Sysco and Microsoft. I happened to catch it, and there was nothing said about anyone turning anyone over to the Chinese government. Personally, I thought the politicians were rather shrill, uninformed and mostly playing politics as usual.
Typical clownish behaviour on our elected officials part, since they are the last ones to be pointing the finger at anyone. It's their doing that our biggest debt is owed to the Chinese, and our government deals with them all the time. How can they possibly have any complaint against anyone elses business practices?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11347853/
in the name of free speech i guess.
Yay! (thats all I have)
In the name of free speech? Maybe you should do some research. The Chinese fought a war to have the government they have now. The will of the people has spoken. As bad as we may think it is now, by our lights, it was far worse before they went communist. It's not up to the US to be telling the biggest nation on earth how to conduct business, and the sooner we realize that, the better off everyone will be. You can't bully a country with nukes, orbital missiles and 4 times the number of people.
And as far as turning people in, it happens here too. With everything being so transparent, the government doesn't even need to ask for details, they are already out there.
Yes. Every person in China is for the government they have now. Thats why there are hundreds of journalists who have been jailed or killed for dissenting. And who said anything about anyone telling them what to do. The idea is that, as a nation, we value freedom of speech as an essential principle. Its part of how we define freedom. So, to some people, I guess not you, it's unsettling that any US company would cooperate to stifle that freedom in another country.
I'd love to, actually. The vintage cars alone...Quote:
Originally Posted by indivision
hah. whats stopping you?
Broadband internet access.Quote:
Originally Posted by indivision
yeah. they probably figure whats the point in having broadband to download one available web-site. :D
Try and be realistic. Hundreds out of 1.3 billion is a drop in the bucked so small you wouldn't even see it. Nor, lately, have I seen anything good about the freedom of speech in this country. For the most part, if China has gone a bit far to the left, the US has gone way too far to the right about the freedom of speech. And then you got your buddy in the whitehouse there who is spying on everyone and their uncle in the name of freedom and patriotism and nation security. So excuse me for being the eternal cynic, but I just do not see any difference whatsoever between theirs and ours.Quote:
Originally Posted by indivision
People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Those are just the journalists who had the cajones to stand up and say something. There's no telling how many people remain silent out of fear. Besides that, nobody's life should just be written off for dissenting, no matter how outnumbered they are. You think that's unrealistic?
I know you want to talk about Bush and maybe that was the intention of your first comment here. But, I don't see the issue in this thread as being partisan or Bush-related.
[regarding spying. dont you think theres a difference between people being spied on for potential terrorist activities and those being arrested for not liking their government?]
when those being spied on are not related to terrorism in any way, but are being spied on because they dislike the government, I don't see much of a differenceQuote:
Originally Posted by indivision
Carry on.
Yes, worry about your own people first. It's totally unrealistic to worry about Chinese who if they want freedom, can take it for themselves. You've fallen for the party line if you somehow think it's the people in the US who should be freeing the rest of the worlds people.Quote:
Originally Posted by indivision
Read your first post. I was just pointing out that the same thing happens here. but your wrong, that I want to talk about the shrub. I would love nothing better to never have to think about him again.Quote:
I know you want to talk about Bush and maybe that was the intention of your first comment here. But, I don't see the issue in this thread as being partisan or Bush-related.
If I thought only terrorists were being spied on, I would have no problem with it. Do you truly think that all the claims made against bush are unfounded?Quote:
regarding spying. dont you think theres a difference between people being spied on for potential terrorist activities and those being arrested for not liking their government?
thats an interesting comment. i think you accidentally quoted the wrong person though. as im sure you can see now, i compared being spied on and being arrested.Quote:
Originally Posted by yasunobu13
Both happen here, all the time. Your point is?Quote:
i compared being spied on and being arrested
We aren't obligated to free everyone. But, we can at least not partake in activities that restrict freedoms from other people that we would not tolerate losing ourselves. Its shameful, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
I read my first post. I still dont see where the partisan Bush aspect comes into play. I was mistaken about Google handing over search data. I happen to agree with the courts decision on this matter. And I'm sure Google would like nothing more than to be percieved by the public as the peoples champion. The truth is, they are cooperating with the Chinese government to limit free speech. Their argument is that China will be better with them than without them completely. I dont buy it. They are there to make money and compete with the other search engines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
No. I mean, which claims are you talking about? As with every president, many claims have been made, many are false but Im sure some are not. Being the object of hysteria seems to go with the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
why are you trying to bring everything back here? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
you guys are right. i shouldnt say anything critical about what the Chinese government does to journalists that oppose them. after all, im not a Bush-basher and therefore am disqualified from making value judgements because Bush does worse.
happy?
Because we've got enough of our own problems with diminishing freedoms and an overbearing government, or hadn't you noticed?Quote:
why are you trying to bring everything back here?
The only reason that atrocities and human rights violations abroad get news coverage is to detract from the same things going on in your own back yard. See how good we have it compared to the godless chinese communists? If it's so bad other there, what are we doing about it? BILLIONS of dollars in trade, that's what. Why not go over there and drag them into the 21st century and impose our idea of civilized democracy? Because they would all unite against us and wipe us off the face of the planet. What would you do if they told you that communism was the way of the future and you were going to switch and like it? Nothing unifies a country like a common foe. The morale of the story? Mind your own @#$!@# business. So instead of going after the godless chinese (who punch back) the US is preparing to pick on another small country they think they can steamroll. The press has already started demonizing the evil Iranians and their plan to cover the world with nukes, it's WMDs all over again. At least this time they're trying to get their cover story straight. Tell me with a straight face that you can't see how this story is going to end...
i dont know. wouldnt the press have to be controlled by the government for that to be true? oh wait, thats China that controls the press! ;)
The press doesn't need to be controlled to do this, that's the best part. The majority of the population is soooo stupid that that they'll just buy anything they see on the teevee (even on FOX) and accept it as gospel. Once they see a bit, they want more (Jerry Springer mentality). The more outrageous the story better, but just normal pain and suffering will do, as long as it's someone elses. That's what sells on the networks, the Nielsen box has spoken and the retards are waaay out in front. The only time you see "happy" stories on the news is around the holidays or when it's a slow local news day and something unhorrible happens to a small child or a puppy. News is not news, it hasn't been for a looong time. It's entertainment designed to keep you happy that what you're seeing isn't happening to you. Animated tabloids. Consumable fluff for the masses.
Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northcode
I'm with Google on this one. Any country is better off with a useful search engine than without it. And that search engine should be able to protect it's users' privacy, while adhering to the political and economical requirements of that country.
Are you also against other US companies operating in other countries with objectionable regimes and freedoms that differ from yours? Think carefully on this one.
People who try to apply the free speech argument to every issue, and claim that the they should be allowed to do everything they can, including, but not limited to - invade, block, sanction, overthrow, nuke(?) - to spread freedom. They forget that it's their brand of so called freedom that they are forcing upon other nations.
Here's an idea. Let other countries progress at their own pace. Let the Chinese figure out what's right for them.
[edited typos]
You wont get any argument from me with the marketability of hysteria. Though, that seems to contradict your first idea that the purpose of the stories are to distract from whats going on here. After all, a large part of the hysteria they foster includes local stories as well as foreign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northcode
Consider that one of the ideas that Communist governments preach to their people is that the principles of Capitalist nations are for sale. The actions of these search companies plays right into that idea, whether its true in this case or not, it has the appearance that the dollar is more important than the peoples rights to those companies. Im pretty sure that the dissidents would much prefer that these companies took a stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by flipsideguy
Again, its easy for you to sit back and contemplate whether or not freedom of speech applies to other people when you already enjoy it. Half the people that post in this forum would be in prison, doing serious time if they said a fraction of their dissenting views as a citizen of another country. It's beyond me how anyone can dismiss the significance of that or believe thats a "brand" of freedom.
Companies operating in other countries is one thing. Cooperating to do something that is just plain wrong is another.
[a bit more of an activist type site than i like to link to normally, but they've itemized news on China's oppression, imprisonment of "cyber-dissidents", etc. : http://www.rsf.org/country-50.php3?id_mot=88&Valider=OK ]
how would you like to be doing 10 years for posting a rant about xyz politician?
Unfortunately you are completely brainwashed to believe that your way of thinking is the only correct one, at the same time deceived to believe that human rights violations do not exist in your country.Quote:
Originally Posted by indivision
This is remnant indoctrination from the cold war era, when your citizens were given their daily dose of "right or wrong (good or evil) according to us" propaganda.
As usual your way of thinking is completely out of touch with reality, and fails to consider the majority opinion of the targeted nation. Again, you project your way of thinking onto others.
Today, China is of extreme significance to the US, not because of its human rights record, but for its rampant advancements as a world economy.
A country as large as China, with over 1 billion citizens, is working its way up to become a stable economy. They must be doing something right. Anyone pointing fingers at their human rights record has other motives.
In any country, you will have those who oppose their government. And in any country you will have a government that does everything within its power to suppress that opposition. This happens in China, just as it happens in the US. Do not kid yourself.
You won't be content until you are part of every country's decision making, elections, domestic and foreign policy, and way of life. That's what's scary in this world.
I'm glad you said that. Far too many people here in the US think that way and it's going to bring us a lot of grief soon if they keep it up. I just can't believe how much the concept of what 'being american' has changed, not only in the last few decades, but worse, just since this president took office. How can anyone believe that Chaina hasn't progressed further along the lines of freedom for it's own people than even the US?Quote:
Originally Posted by flipsideguy
And consider all those nice dumb american citizens who think that that's a lie. Our big companies and our governments morals are for sale, and only the blind follower of them would believe otherwise. You've shown, over the months in these threads, that your one of those who believe the dollar is more important than the rights of the people by cloaking it in your belief that whatever the shrub and his crooked repug party is doing is a good thing.Quote:
Consider that one of the ideas that Communist governments preach to their people is that the principles of Capitalist nations are for sale. The actions of these search companies plays right into that idea, whether its true in this case or not, it has the appearance that the dollar is more important than the peoples rights to those companies. Im pretty sure that the dissidents would much prefer that these companies took a stand.
I want to be a hermit.
I'll be doing the rest of the world a favor, too. Everyone wins.
There's only one problem....
Hermits get crushed to easily.
I don't understand why the english fear anarchy it never lasts
If I recall correctly Portugal dissolved it's government...Then the facists took over.
I'd be quite surprised considering they left communism behind (at least the economics of it) sometime ago. Economically, the u.s. and china are more similar than different in their quasi-fascism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northcode
If you wanted to compare the tyrany aspects of china and u.s. one would have damn good point if the u.s. started imprisoning and killing all the illegals that came across the southern border... northern one to, otherwise not much in common really. Lets also not forget that there are still folks in the chinese government that thought mao was a helluva guy.
Anyway back to google, the justice department wanted more information than they could use about exposing children to porn. If you are really worried about you privacy.. I suggest tossing your pc out the window... NSA or some other yet to be disclosed org is reading everything.. just be happy there is to much information to sort.
Ottawa is still in canada right...... ;)Quote:
Mind your own @#$!@# business.
Haha. Flipside, why even bother starting with 'unfortunately'? How disengenuous.Quote:
Originally Posted by flipsideguy
Ad hominem.Quote:
Originally Posted by flipsideguy
Ad hominem.Quote:
Originally Posted by flipsideguy
Yes. Thats so true. The US has simply ignored the country until lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by flipsideguy
Ok. Human rights violations are justified by profits? Anyone who cares about human rights in China is just engaging in McCarthyism? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by flipsideguy
If you think there is a 1 to 1 relationship between government regulation of speech between the US and China, you are the one who is kidding themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by flipsideguy
Yes. I, by myself, represent the entire US and it's entire government. Anyway, you've completely misunderstood if you believe this. I don't want us to be part of China's decision making. That doesn't mean that I can't condemn some of their governments actions and companies that aid them in those actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by flipsideguy
China has progressed further than the US toward freedom relative to where they were. Thats true and is a great thing. But, are you incapable of any level of granular observation? Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. They dont have it. They have made strides elsewhere. But, that doesnt give them a pass in that department.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
I guess trying not to be so inflamatory is out the window when you're being called dumb and blind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask The Geezer
Anyway, if you think pointing out the facts after you make wild claims means the dollar is more important to me than people, yes, you're right. Thats what happened.
Yes they do, Chinese have even posted in the CL. Get with it, and quit making unsupportable claims and I wouldn't be inflammatory at all. Your living in some middle earth dreamland if you think the US is still the land of the free and should export our brand of government to the rest of the world. With our own government so blatanly crooked, shame on you. Nobody wants it.Quote:
Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. They dont have it.