[Disc] Serious Games?

Well, recently I stumbled across a website while in search of educational games called http://www.seriousgames.org. I guess I just don't see too much, especially not on this site, game development with an educational value or one that I guess would create productive results through its gameplay.

I personally find myself having a hard time seeing a type of game I personally could make that would have some sort of educational application or would help create social change besides some far out ideas about a game from "terrorist's" point of view maybe just to show that people have different mindsets for a reason.

Anyways, I'm just curious if anyone has any thoughts on making games with a purpose besides entertainment. I think it would be wonderful if more people spent their time making games, maybe even were just as fun but had a historical context so that people playing flash games online were learning at least something while playing.

DiS, teaching history in a hopefully subtle way:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient..._sakkara.shtml

Level UP, introducing life skills to the pre-teens:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/levelup/

Ok, so I'm pimping myself a bit, but I'm also trying to show that educational titles don't have to be 2 + 2 = ? or anything lame like that.
This imho is how educational games should be, that any learning is almost a side effect of playing the game, rather than being the sole reason for playing and it being forced into the end user.

Squize.

Heheheh I forgot that, I had planned to say "BESIDES that death in sakkara game"

Yeah, I guess although i labeled this a discussion I brought it up also to try and get people thinking of how they could put educational aspects or promotion of social change into their game while still making it enjoyable. I also do appreciate that you have done this, I hope others can say they have done the same.

A great example of trying to promote a social agenda ( For want of a better term ) is the great McDonalds tycoon game ( name and url escape me ), but that is a fantastic piece of propoganda.

I think with social issues there are certain subjects that can be done, and others which can't.
For example a game about helping the elderly is valid because no one can say it's a bad thing, but what about an anti-war game ( Of which there are as many as there are pro war ) ?
What I find acceptable, you may not, and visi versa. To try and promote and push your views on people could backfire badly, and I think that's why for the most part people stay away from it ( A good example that springs to mind is one of the games on technoteachers site, where you set fire Margaret Thatcher's hair. Some may see that as a light hearted dig at a former prime minister, some may see it as fitting due to the way she ran the country, or some may be offended by a game where you set fire to a frail old womans hair ).

I think unless you have an overtly political agenda to push ( Such as Greenpeace, or even the British National Party ) then you're better staying the hell away from it :)

""BESIDES that death in sakkara game", don't say it like that mate, it's genre defining you know ;)

Squize.

the besides death in sakkara was supposed to be inserted after asking if anyone had done similar games, the besides that game was only because I already was aware of that one.

I have to agree with you about the political aspects and being careful where you tread in terms of your opinions. Thanks for the input, also hope I wasn't offensive with my "besides death in sakkara comment"

-ChaseNYC

I vaguely recall an amazing (and impressively educational) game that I played many years ago called Journeyman. ...actually, I think the title was longer than that, but that's all I can remember. Anyway, in the game the hero traveled through time and explored ancient civilizations, and it did a pretty good job teaching history. That's about all I can remember. It was a lot of fun, though.

... *goes off to find Journeyman and reinstall it*

EDIT: Suddenly it occurs to me that you were probably talking about flash games specifically.

...so ...nevermind.

CNY, I was only joking about the DiS comment mate :)

Squize.

I was talking about flash games in general but any game is fine... I'm a little upset not too many people have much to say on the topic. oh well...

-ChaseNYC

I remember educational Flash game I enjoyed greatly:
The Asylum - http://www.parapluesch.de/

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I'm a little upset not too many people have much to say on the topic.

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Well, personally I don't really like the combination of games and education. It's not my thing, if I want to learn something I do it by other means, and I play only for recreation, so that is reflected in my games.
That being said, you can learn from almost any game, whether it is improving your reaction time and skills in action games, or training your brain in puzzle games.

The McDonalds game was one of my favourites.

http://www.mcvideogame.com/

Oh... My... God...

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Scientists say if we destroy too many rainforests, we cause ozone depletion. Ozone depletion causes global waring and melts polar ice caps. If polar ice caps melt, the sea level rises and there are climatic disasters. Unfortunately many people believe these superstitions and want to halt western progress to save the stupid icebergs.

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There are inevitably some glitches in our activity: rainforest destruction, livelihood losses in the third world, desertification, precarization of working conditions, food poisoning and so on [...] this is the price to pay in order to preserve our lifestyle.

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Edit : Lol, I seemed to have missed the point. It's early in the morning. I actually believed it was from McDonalds for a second. I feel stupid now :)

That's the game I meant, cheers BL :)

Squize.

some of the really great games that come to me that'll teach you something (not flash, though) were the "Where in the ... is Carmen Sandiego" series ...

I remember enjoying them very much (esp. the "Where in the world ..." part)

nGFX

Definetly with nGFX... The Carmen Sandiego games were the best educational games ever...

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Originally Posted by Squize

learning is almost a side effect of playing the game

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true.

Well we had to develop some game for kids 5-7.
What we worked on was the pre-required, which is basically all you need to have as concepts in order to be able to learn to write/read/calculate.

So you need to have clear in your head concept like: left, right, above, below, bigger, smaller and stuff like that.

So yeah any kind of puzzle teach something, and anything that makes you learn new concept teach you something, it can be logic or pure imagination.

The other thing is that I serously doubt that anyone can learn anything if it doesnt enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by nGFX

some of the really great games that come to me that'll teach you something (not flash, though) were the "Where in the ... is Carmen Sandiego" series ...

I remember enjoying them very much (esp. the "Where in the world ..." part)

nGFX

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I haven't thought about that for sooo long. I think I mainly watched a TV show of it though.

Good times.

I've done a lot on educational games versus entertainment games. You can read a summary about it here: http://www.willoughbyweb.com/portfol...esis/index.htm

Admittedly, the e-mail address at the bottom is wrong.. and I need to update it.

To summarize, most educational games have the following problems:
1) Most educational games have a passive style of gameplay. The child clicks on the screen to determine where the character goes. After a location is selected, the character is animated walking to that location. If there are some action-oriented segments, the player usually cannot control the exact movement of their character between these segments.

2) Another motivating factor missing from most educational games is an engaging storyline. The majority of educational games have a plot line, it frequently consists of just a story introduction and perhaps an ending.

Conversely, in entertainment video games, particularly single player ones like RPGs, have evolved to feature more complex narrative structures. These stories often include classical literary structures such as foreshadowing, flashbacks, irony, metaphors, and symbolism.

3) The majority of educational games have a limited number of places the child can go.

Although repetition is an important aspect to learning, it does not have to be monotonous. When a gameplay concept is introduced, (i.e. treasure chests have important items in them), the child should be able to recognize the treasure chest as something important regardless of whether the background is a green field of grass or a snow-covered meadow.

This concept is known as Isomorphism, or “this is similar to that.” (Centre for Innovation in Mathematics Teaching).

Although different levels feature different graphics in entertainment games, the rules remain unchanged.

4) The majority of educational games on the market are very positive. Some of the early educational games were negative, even punishing, when the user gave an incorrect answer. Today, they are very encouraging to the player, even if they answer questions incorrectly. In fact, some games completely eliminated the word “wrong” from their scripts and replaced it with phrases like “I am not sure if that is it. Can you please try again?”

Although negative feedback to incorrect answers has been proven to impede the learning process, feedback that is too positive can negatively impact motivation. One young player I talked to said he realized the game was going to say ‘good job’ no matter how many times he gave the wrong answer. As a result, he had no desire continue playing the game because the reward level was always the same.

A good metaphor for game design is that of the donkey and the carrot.

If one dangles a carrot in front of a donkey, he or she will chase after it.

If the carrot is too hard for the donkey to reach, it will become frustrated and wander away.

If the carrot is too close, the donkey will eat it and then walk away because there is nothing else to do.

Good game design is the ability to put the carrot somewhere in between so the user will continue playing without becoming bored.

5) From my studies of entertainment games, educational games, and talking with children and gamers about video games, I have concluded that educational games should be more character-centric. Educational games should allow the children to build up their characters, gain levels, or items.

I think a great example of a modern educational game is Zoombinis. It teaches Math logic with out using numbers. It's a lot of fun and at the highest level setting it can be challenging for adults, too.

wow, you have degree on educational games?

Naw, that was just my thesis. :)

But yeah, I did a lot of game theory work in school...

*deleted*

what about a middle way, like a Rosebud's cube? :mrpimp:

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Originally Posted by Ray Beez

Yeah, people keep comparing the medium to movies, and indirectly to literature, but the fact remains that games are at their very core, elaborate "toys". (Argue all you want about the peripheral features such a toy might have, such as story, visuals, sounds, etc, etc... the very CORE is a toy that you play with).

So having made that important distinction I would say there is no reason why any game developer should be motivated to aim for a "citizen kane" when the reality is they should aim for a "Rubik's Cube".

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It depends on how you look at it. Calling games elaborate toys maybe an over simplification, since my brother has a GPS in his car, and it is his "toy" but it's not much of game. What a toy is, is different to different people. There is a large segment of people who like games which are mostly cut-scene movies (like Final Fantasy or Metal Gear Solid series).

However, toys are usually entertaining, which is why the movie and music comparisons come up so often.

The problem is the game industry is like post WWII Hollywood. The pictures cost a lot of money to make and people are AFRAID to make something artistic or different because it might be a box office bomb (like Citizen Kane was). Just look at poor Majestic games and Psychonaughts (which is a wonderful game but since it "looked" kiddie and didn't have any big name license, it did badly).

Someone HAS to make the Citizen Kane of games. I'm not sure what it will be like, but I'm SURE it will flop sales wise.

-pXw
(Who wants to be the David Lynch of games :P )

*deleted*

RESPONDING TO AN OFF TOPIC DEBATE...

I guess my first post was pretty bad. :)

After some thought (since I was working on a game when I tried the first response) I realized what the two problems I have with the term "toy" are.

First off, I think despite how well the definition fits, it has and will always have a "kid" sigmatism associated with it. Similar to how Nintendo in the US is often called "the kiddie comapny" but in Japan, it is considered "all ages". Statistically, most gameplayers are over the age of 30 nowadays, yet, throughout the US, people are treating the game industry like they make toys for children. I think a lot of developers are trying to get serious, so groups can not kidify the industry.

Another example of this issue is using the term "cartoon" versus "animation" or "anime". Anime fans for YEARS had to fight the attitude that cartoons are for kids. I remember kids being pulled out of the local screening of Akira. It was animated = it's a cartoon = it's for kids (despite the R rating). A lot of individuals started using the term animation to describe works as oppose to cartoons in attempt to break from that attitude.

Secondly, "game" is already a perfect definition for what video games are. Ever game can be considered a toy, but not every toy is game. By definition, a game (from mystery date, to tic-tac-toe, football, dice, poker, hide and seek, Super Mario Brothers, Yar's Revenge, GTA and beyond) has a set of rules, and a winning and losing condition. However, some toys are just simple things to play with, like G.I.Joe, Barbie or whatever. Children use the toys to CREATE games, but in the end, the toy themselves are not the game, but a tool in the game.

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Remember, the game indsutry thought it was turning into Hollywood in the mid 90's, and what did we get? "movies" with a little bit of interaction thrown in. How did that work out for them? It just baffles me when people keep trying to think of ways to turn games into something they are not. (Chris Crawford: You're perp #1 when it comes to this crime!)

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Well... Hollywood is dumb. :)

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PS: Why can't GTA San Andreas be considered a "Citizen Kane" of the games industry? Why can't Final Fantasy X be considered the "Love Story" of games?

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If anything, GTA III might be considered the "Star Wars" of games. It created an entire genre of copycat games, most of which missed what made the movies special in the first place (and after watching Episode I.. I think Lucas didn't know either...)

Final Fantasy X is a GREAT example of a movie game. :p Because if it wasn't for the story, I would have had NO FUN with that game.

If there was a Citizen Kane of video games... EDIT: Pac man probably...

Admittedly, most of the really artistic games come out on the independent game development scene. Games like Rumble Box, Narbacular Drop (the team who developed that are making Halo II Episode II's Portal puzzle game...IT LOOKS LIKE IT WILL ROCK), often times are trying something different, experimental. And just like Hollywood, some experiments will be appreciated and adapted into the mainstream game industry.

Either way, a David Lynch game would rock. :)

I've deleted my off-topic posts. I saved what I wrote and will start a new discussion thread.

Willough can you do the same?

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Originally Posted by ChaseNYC

Well, recently I stumbled across a website while in search of educational games called http://www.seriousgames.org. I guess I just don't see too much, especially not on this site, game development with an educational value or one that I guess would create productive results through its gameplay.

I personally find myself having a hard time seeing a type of game I personally could make that would have some sort of educational application or would help create social change besides some far out ideas about a game from "terrorist's" point of view maybe just to show that people have different mindsets for a reason.

Anyways, I'm just curious if anyone has any thoughts on making games with a purpose besides entertainment. I think it would be wonderful if more people spent their time making games, maybe even were just as fun but had a historical context so that people playing flash games online were learning at least something while playing.

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I think it's some good way to make learning more fun but usually learning and fun are two different concepts. It's a cool idea but I'd enjoy more a game that I play only for fun than for educational purposes. I participated once in a contest that pretended exactly what you say; they promoted learning about global problems through gaming, and they offered prizes to the winners. Here's the link to those games if you're interested http://www.globalsolutions.org/games/2005games.html