Freelance Forum grievance... and apology

I have a bone to pick with RUSHVision. I made a mistake and tried to run a contest for some work I needed done. He deleted the post as he should have and informed me of my error. That was no problem.
Therefore, I reposted with the same information but I made sure that it was not a contest but rather a freelance proposition. I stated the highest amount I was willing to pay as well as some free advertising I was willing to give to the person I chose to do my work. I did not ask for any work to be done for me before I chose them. I only asked to see some previouse work and that I would accept offer and bids until a set time.
This mod obviousely did not read my post but just arbitrarially deleted it. That is unacceptable to me as I WAS following the rules at that time.
This mod deserves a repremand.
Thanks,
Dave

You posted your repremand (sic) in the wrong area... moved to Feedback.

And personally? This should have been taken to PM. And if you read the rules in the FAQ, it clearly states that contests are not allowed here at Flashkit.

And as it read the second time to me, it seemed like it was still a contest and not a freelance solicitation in the way of any other allowed here at FK.

That's my opinion and my interpretation of the rules as I've seen them. RUSHVision had his reasons to enforce those rules as he did.

I dont have a problem with what Rush did. The fact is that the Freelance forum is a bear to moderate and I think Rush does a fantastic job with a difficult task and all for the community. Read and follow the rules and we wont have a problem.

I also agree with gerbick. It would have been more appropriate to keep this to an email or a pm.

Look, I know I messed up in the first post. However, I removed every part that hinted at a contest. Therefore, it should not have been removed. I am sorry I posted the repremand in the wrong section. I am not trying to do anything wrong I took the repremand with no problem and did everything I could to change it and make it compatable. PLEASE tell me what in my post you people think makes it a contest? There is not prize mentioned nor contest mentioned. ONLY asking for people to bid on my project and a statement of the maximum I would spend. Knowing that my max was low I also offered free advertising as well as making sure that the person who was chosen would receive credit on my website... I don't see how this can POSSIBLY be construed as a contest. I did not ask for anything to be given to me for MY USE in advance of me choosing the person(s) to do my projects! I think your loyalty to a mod is clouding your judgment on this issue.
Dave
PS. I don't have a problem with being reminded of the rules. I just have a problem with not being able to correct my mistake as I did!

Also, please place the post here so that I can see what I wrote since I don't have the option of doing so...
I did not copy it because I didn't think I would need to prove anything...
apparently, I do.

Planet, I think your sig says it all.... "Blinded by the powers that be"
Also, if it is so hard to moderate maybe we should get some fresh eyes in there that will look past the fact that 90% of a post is the same as one deleted but that the 10% that was wrong was changed to follow the rules.
Apparently blindness is a problem here.

As to this being a pm... Honestly, those in power should be watched and people need to know that the leadership in any organization is doing its job correctly. Therefore I posted a post so that the members know that there is a possible problem. Whether it be a mod who is not paying as good attention as they should, or maybe the forum is forcing this to happen by not giving him enough help. Whatever the problem people need to know that their WAS one and that it was taken care of. THAT breeds confidence... which I am loosing rapidly.
Now, I know that this whole string can be deleted anytime you want. However by allowing it to stay and responding to my problem you have given me renewed hope that you actually are interested in what your members think.
Again, Please tell me what in my post was incorect ACCORDING TO THE RULES... not your interpretation or feelings. Thanks,
Dave

Sorry for the multiple posts.. :(

Good grief, hit the brakes! (or at least the edit button :P )

Even if you're last (redone) post was the first you made (which it wasn't) it is still heavy on barter and light on payment. You also refer to the bids as "entries" in your redone post which shows all you really did was attempt to conform your original to meet what you seem to think our standards are.

There is all pototoes and little meat when you state that you will get X,Y,Z as barter but a firm limit of 10 and 5 dollars (and even hint that can be underbidded which is just plain funny) and not even seriously worth considering as worthy of all this complaining. You obviously have no budget and thought you'd meet your original goal of avoiding a realistic payment while conforming you're deleted post to get under the wire of our rules. Your post and job request IMO aren't worth listing, are rediculaous in terms of market rate and as they were posted after the same job post being deleted for using your original methods can only be seen as you not getting one by on us. Our freelancers would have only torn the posting apart as lowball, cutrate and anything but lucrative and I think Rush called it right on the money personally. What's the old saying?....you ever get a second chance to make a first impression. This is the same....your first impression is the true one (again, my opinion).

As you stated in one of them...it seems you may just have to do this job yourself. Best of luck :thumbsup:

Actually, I would much rather get a lifetime of advertising on a website than money that will be gone in a matter of days... That is actually of greater (possible) market value than anything I would have accepted as a bid. Second, the word entry referrs to the submition of a name, resume, and previous work for consideration for the job. Now, if no one wants to do it, fine. I felt like my deal was worth it and personally I would have taken it if someone else had offered it. Also, just because you don't place as much on the value of free advertising doesn't mean that others don't as well. TRUE, the fact that people may not take my offer seriously is not worth complaining about. What IS worthy of complaining is that as you stated, my post WAS "under the wire of our rules." Therefore it should not have been deleted just because YOU or RUSH think it is not a fair offer. If you don't like it... don't bid on it or submit your information. If I remember correctly, I stated that I have a limited budget in my post. So it was very clear to everyone.
To your first statement... duh! We all understand that this was a redo of an incorrect posting. Also, if your standards are so flexible to include what the mods think don't you think that is placing too much power in people instead of in "law" or "rules?" Not to get off topic but that is the problem with our legal system today... judges reinterpreting the law.
The rules say nothing about low or fixed pay, nor does it say anything about including extra "bartering" items with a payment offer. It only requires that there must be payment... which I offered.
If this is not acceptable maybe the rules need to be updated. In that case, update the rules but don't just arbitrarilly delete posts that adhere to the current ones.

FYI, I do have someone who is going to do my banners for free advertising... so don't be so high and mighty. Now will they be as good as a $40 banner... no. However, it will help them and it will help me and that was the goal in the first place. There are a lot of good people who are good at these type of projects and are able to look past the immediate pleasure of money and see the big picture.

~JJ
Sorry, I don't like to use the edit feature because it makes people think that you are trying to cover something up. :)

Just so everyone knows... I am not angry, I am just trying to point out some flaws in the system... as I see them. It is interesting to see the circled wagons instead of an open mind! LOL!

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Actually, I would much rather get a lifetime of advertising on a website than money that will be gone in a matter of days...

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That's you talking like a banner exchanger but we won't hold it against you though :)

Best of luck with your project and your "new guy" :thumbsup:

:) LOL!
Yep you know us banner exchangers! LOL!
If it doesn't work out I only lost a few dollars instead of tens or hundreds! LOL!
Thanks
Dave

I honestly don't have a problem with decisions being made... If the mods don't want my post to be up thats fine, I just think that along with that decision should be a clarification of the rules. If they are not updated then people who were trying to follow them don't understand what is wrong.
That is my biggest point. Just making sure that decisions are not being made without proper support by the stated rules. Mods have power for a reason. But as Uncle Ben said to Peter Parker in Spiderman 1, "with great power comes great responsibility" and I like to add accountability.
That is the hard part of a mod job! LOL!
I do give all the mods cudos for the hard work they do. I don't think I would do it as well! I do appoligieze to Rush for calling him out specifically. I could have been more general in my orginal post. Please forgive me if I offended.
Like I said, I am just trying to point out flaws and areas that need to be considered.
I still love Flash Kit!
LOL!

I would like to issue a public appology to Rushvision. In a recent post I sited you as the problem instead of the issue (actual problem). I understand you were doing your job as best you saw fit. I was frustrated with the situation and without thinking it through, placed the original blame on you instead of the problems of the situation. Therefore I would like to appologise. They say that words are like toothpaste, once you squeeze them out you can't put them back in... now that is not necessarily the case on a forum, however, in my mind it is all the same.
If anything I have posted has put a blight on your name and/reputation I am sorry.
My sincere regrets,
Dave Welch

Mods,
If this is in the wrong section please move it. I did not know where the best place to post it would be.
Thanks,
Dave

my2c...
A review of the rules to make sure they are still applicable to the way the owners want the site to be (and be run) might be a good idea, and my guess would be that such a review might be placed on the list of to-do's, to ensure they cover situations like yours.

This should happen for a place like this at least once a year.

I have never been comfortable about people soliciting for work or workers here, in any form, but I don't own the website, and that decision belongs with the owners.

davidp

The rules are constantly updated as situations arise. If you look in the header of the Freelance forum rules, you can see when they where last updated and by whom.

If you forward the post to me in a pm then I will review it and let you know if it will be acceptable. That’s the best I can do in this situation.

As for the forum itself, including finding new mods or dissolving it altogether… we had to pull strings to get this forum in place because of a verity of issues. Looking back after about a year and half that its been open, I would have to say that this forum causes more issues and complaints then all the other forums combined but I have no statistics to see how much good, if any this forum is actually doing for the community. At this point, David’s concerns may be justifiable and we should probably reconsider the future of the Freelance Forum at Flash Kit. I’ll see what kind of stats I can get together as far as jobs fulfilled, page views, number of complaints, etc…

Not feeling the need to justify my actions, I've not responded until now. I do feel that the situation could use some clarity at this point, however.

First off, you were right in taking issue with me specifically. It was me and me alone who made all the decisions and took all the actions in regard to your posts. Though it has previously been mentioned, I will also say that this would have been better handled via PM either to me or the admin. I say that simply because it would have ensured a more positive outcome for you. Putting it up here and going on as you have only served to diminish your chances of success by alienating the very people you seek to entreaty.

I'm with you 100% on the subject of accountability and the responsibility of those in/with power. Uncle Ben's words have honestly shaped my life since I first read them at a very young age. In this you and I are more alike than you know. I make a conscious effort not to let the power that I wield as an FK mod go to my head, because the truth is we do have the ability to impact other's lives in either a very positive or very negative way...especially in the Flash Freelance forum where there is money involved. So I don't blame you for taking issue when you thought someone might be abusing their power. There was no way for you to know better without knowing me better.

Don't forget however, to focus on your end goal. I admire your passion, but your strength is better directed when it serves to build others up instead of tear them down. Rather than seeking resolution for your problem, you sought retribution against me. I haven't been harmed by this, but your cause ended up suffering considerably as a result, with you being seen more as a ranting madman than a rational man with a legitimate claim. You do get mondo bonus points for your views on not editing your posts, though. That's something else I agree with you about. I also make an effort not to edit posts in discussions such as these so as to avoid confusion and add the aforementioned accountability to one's words.

In regard to the request you posted in the Flash Freelance forum...as you said, the first one was a no-brainer. We don't allow contests. At this point that's strike one...posting something that is expressly forbidden in the rules. It's right there in black and white for everyone to see before they post. Still not that big a deal, however. I'm an understanding guy and I can see how someone might miss it. Even though I wrote them, I can still concede that the line in the rules that says 'no contests' kind of gets lost next to the other bold text right beside it. It's still there though, and it's a recognized compromise on my part based on how I set up the emphasis on the text, which is based in turn on which elements I felt and still feel need to stand out most to people.

Strike number two was the fact that you posted the same thread in multiple forums, something else that is expressly disallowed in the rules. I got rid of them both and let you know that wasn't cool. Again, not a huge deal to me. You're a fairly new member and I chalked it up to part of the learning process.

Strike number three came when you posted the exact same request, but this time with the word 'contest' replaced by a ridiculously low price for your work. At this point it looks to me like you are trying to skirt the rules just enough to slide by, and this is where it falls to me to make a judgement call. You say you will pay $5.00 for a banner and that you need it done in 1-2 days. This says to me that you want someone to work for 1-2 days and in return you will graciously offer to reimburse them a grand total of five U.S. dollars. Hmm...says I. Does that sound like a fair deal? Unfortunately, and no offense to you...but I had to say no, it didn't. When something is not covered by the rules, that's what I rely on...trying to be fair.

So I'm sorry you feel you were wrongfully treated, but I still stand by my original determination that this offer is not suitable for our forums. The Flash Freelance forum is provided as an added value service to our members and is run in accordance with requirements specific to it's owner, Jupiter Media. If you feel that the rules as they are currently set forth don't mesh with your needs then you are free to find another site that does. :)

I think you are all on cloud cuckoo land with this one.
Just delete this and let DMwelch stew for a while or let him go back to watching Spiderman.

Ha ha, this is very funny.

Mr Welch, the freelance forum is for 'paid work only' as is mentioned (in red bold caps) in the rules. None of the following currencies are accepted:
1. lifetime of free advertising
2. free graphics services
3. free web hosting (either yearly or lifetimes worth)
4. free wacom tablet
5. a prize
6. and all the other strange and wonderful 'red paperclip' style trading methods.
It's not best practice to attempt to use these currencies here at flashkit or you would probably get flamed by the posters or have your post deleted (as in your case).

Maybe you would have better luck in the forums here:
http://oneredpaperclip.blogspot.com/

Best of luck and my comments are only made to lighten the tension.

Alternatively if you suddenly find some money, please view my portfolio and I will provide you with a flash banner. I'll even provide you with advice to make your own on MSN.

I'm all for deleting it, but that would be more for Dave's benefit than mine. That call would belong to either Planet or the supermods, however.

Like I said though, I admire his passion and agree with his thoughts on accountability. I've got no problem responding to that or in giving reasons for my actions. I don't think he went about this the right way, nor do I think his request is a good fit for our forums, but I think Dave himself is a decent fellow. I'd like to walk away from this with just a smile and a handshake along with some wishes of good luck on getting his project done elsewhere, personally. :)

MAN! :( I just messed up and hit my back button and lost my whole statement... I guess I was typing too long. I don't feel like typing it all again... Summary? LOL!
~Planet,
PLEASE do not close the forum. It is a BIG help to lots of us!
~Rush
I agree with you about 90%. My problem is that I read the rules a while ago and didn't think to recheck them before I posted. Therefore I forgot some of them. Also, I only posted multiple forums because I saw that other forum and thought it would be a better fit. I didn't think about the spam issue! LOL!
The only thing I really disagree with you is your stated reason for deleting the post. I am thankful that you are willing to help stupid people like me by protecting us from the consequenses of our posts. However, the rules don't state anything about the comp. being required to be "fair." Now, if you had written and told me the real reason you were deleting the second one (to protect me), I may have disagreed but I would have discussed it with you further instead of getting frustrated and going out of my freaking head and starting this post! LOL! Since it was a judgement call and the rules don't cover it, it might be better in the future to take a more tactful approach instead of just deleting it and claiming that it violated the rules or stating that the person is not going to get one by you. LOL! Just a thought.
Like I said though I agree with you on the other things and appreciate your willingness to protect me from the hounds as well as all the work you put into being a mod!
~mesmerize
LOL! This has become a little funny but I think in the long run it does bring up some issues that can be helpful.
Hey, can I help it if I love spiderman so much? I always wanted to be him since I was a kid. In fact, I told my parents if they ever made a movie, I wanted to play spidermam... well that dream died! LOL!
Thanks for the offer. :) I do know how to do it but really don't want to spend the time or the money! LOL!
~Rush
Handshakes are soooooo formal... how about a chest bump? :) LOL!

Merged the two threads... the original Bone to Pick and the Formal Apology threads into one.

The Mod Area is for mods to post their bio only...

ok Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Planet

I would have to say that this forum causes more issues and complaints then all the other forums combined but I have no statistics to see how much good, if any this forum is actually doing for the community.

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If nothing for the community, it is doing a lot of good for me. I have made a considerable about of money (I don't care to publicly disclose how much) I am utterly grateful. And I'm sure I'm not the only one that has made a nice living visiting the freelance section.

The forum does a lot of good, you just aren't hearing about. PM me if you would like to discuss it in more depth.

Thanks for all your hard work.
:)

Just to add to Shell, I am also thankful for the forum. I get my majority of work from there and would go bust without it.

The forum also puts food in the mouths of the following:
Me
My girlfriend,
2 Guinea pigs
an extra freelance programmer
2 artists

It also results in my customers improving their sites and earning an income or setting up a business, you name it.

It has also resulted in millions (yes millions) of children (and some adults) playing the games we make and having safe fun on the internet.

All in all, I think the freelance forum does a lot of background work that I could spend ages talking about.

Like Shell, I too was worried about that comment.

If you do decide, despite these comments, that you are going to shut it down, please PM or announce it at least a month in advance so I can prepare my business for the upset. Thanks in advance.

The Freelance Forum has drawn out the "draculas" and scam artists... that much is for sure.

A lot of people nickel and dime their way to a "decent living" with absolutely no proof of work ever being done. And since Flashkit is absolved of any interaction, rightfully so I might add, the complaints from some of these people aren't posted here since the negotiations happen away from here.

I'd like to see implemented, one way or the other - via FK or through feedback from the "employer" in these solicitations that happen in the Freelance Forum - that certain users that don't even have posts largely outside of the Freelance Forum be "ranked" and their work shown... or at least any common grievances announced and placed solidly on the recent splurge of Freelance Forum only posters.

Some people are putting out shoddy work and/or are shady people. Too bad we don't get reports onto whomever they might be due to the aforementioned reasons... (to reiterate) since the negotiations are off-site as well as the showcase of the work.

And some people are putting out great work. This message goes out to nobody in particular.

It's just my 2 cents.

I can't fully say (willingly or not) that the area is being abused; however I can see how it could be. Easily.

However with RUSHVision over the area, as well as the Admin activity in that area, let's just hope the scam artists are easily recognizable as the good workers and the Freelance Forum continues to grow and actually add to the Flashkit Community.

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If nothing for the community, it is doing a lot of good for me.

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In reality it does nothing for the "community". In that forum....the few outweigh the many and the 600,000 member community almost never gets any trickle down from the "skills" of that said few. I'm all for making a living, but I'm not a big fan of visiting merely to make a buck. I eat like a king every day but I always make sure to throw my dog a bone now and then or he may bite me or piss on my rug.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shell2006

If nothing for the community, it is doing a lot of good for me. I have made a considerable about of money (I don't care to publicly disclose how much) I am utterly grateful. And I'm sure I'm not the only one that has made a nice living visiting the freelance section.

The forum does a lot of good, you just aren't hearing about. PM me if you would like to discuss it in more depth.

Thanks for all your hard work.
:)

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I cant tell you how glad I am to hear that because that is exactly what this forum is all about. Thanks for saying so shell. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: