[DISC] Flash as a career; College courses

Asking this on behalf of a friend on the other forum I frequent, SFDT:

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My problem is, I'm going to college, but I don't know what field to go into. I love Flash, I love making websites, animations, games, actionscripting...but there is no "College of Flash" that I can go into. I checked out Computer Engineering - too much math. Computer Science was closer, and Graphic Design was also kind of dancing around it.

My question is, I always see some people saying "I made this animation for school...etc," so what major are you making that animation for?

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Essentially he'd like to know what College courses you devs (artists and coders) took, where you are now, whether it was the right choice... basically any advice you can give. :)

Also interested in this myself, and I'd personally like to know what path I should take to get into more serious game dev work (specifically Nintendo or Rare, if that's not wishful thinking).

Nobody need schools to learn codding in flash or any other language, we all know that is not that difficult for a 10, 12 year old kid to start codding something.And if you really belive you cant learn by yourself them you are lost because things change and evolve all the time

flash wasnt around ( barely even computers! :) ) when i was studying but i think doing an organised course on any language would give a decent grounding. theres especially quite a few flash people cross training from java.

we've had real problems finding flash people. obviously you're going to look at cvs but we would also consider developers with good portfilio work to show. in my experience these are normally better devs than people with the 'right' quals.

there seems to be a stronger line being drawn between designers and devs these days, flash guys always used to be a mix of both which i think was a good thing. sounds like your friend needs to decide for certain which way he wants to go.

yes, as mrpauly said there´s a stronger line drawn between designers and coders these days with flash, too. That´s mainly because once the lnguage comes closer to Java/C# the developer should know about oop manners, which at the same time is not the usual way designers think/code in average.
Overall if you´re interested in learning about game programming a general programming related education (especially one where application development in C,C++,C# or Java is tought) will help you get a good base for your work knowledge.
Most such general programming releated education paths don´t focus a lot on game creation though, so if your main ambition is to get into game development, especially console game development level stuff you should consider going to one of the dedicated schools there. There are a few in the US which are quite respected by the console game creators.
Some even have practice semesters where one then works at a console game developer for a while.
The part of Incrue´s comment i agree with is that in this field technology evolves at radical pace so when checking out the semester courses schedule overview of a school you should check if it focusses more on teaching old tech/languages or the latest new things. While learning older things is good for your general knowledge its of course prefered that you know about 3D graphics/shader coding and the latest languages and tools than that you learn basic and the broad history of computing for a year or two.

I was in the same situation as your friend V, I just ended up doing a university degree in Multimedia, because I'm not smart enough for computer science/engineering, and wanted to do more than straight programming. I never knew what programs/languages I was going to learn. Turned out that I didn't actually get taught hardly anything about Flash/Adobe products, other than helpful tips. It was basically a 3 year period where I could experiment myself, uni gave me a chance to create things that I wouldn't have normally done on my own. Sometimes just the fact you have an assignment can help you learn much faster, especially if you want to achieve something good.

So yeah, I don't think you can be taught a language and be pro in a blink of an eye, neither do I think a single course can teach you everything. My advice would be choose a course which presents a wide variety of tasks, not so much in different mediums/languages but in ideas and do heaps of experimentation.

I would advise your friend to reconsider the graphic design/gfx side of things. I chose graphic design as a minor and it does help in everything. Doing a art course can inspire you to create something in programming to

I dont know about you guys but if i was the employer and have only two choices;
1 guy from school with good portfolio
2 guy self learn with good portfolio
I would hire the second, and i suspect Bill Gates would too, and that nitrome too

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Originally Posted by nitrome

The ability to self-learn new skills as required

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http://www.nitrome.com/jobs/
And i also think that the sun's approach is also counting on that because you can learn java by yourself, pay to do the test and get your java certificate,wich for the market is as good or even better them some programming schools

Incure, I think there needs to be a mix, there just is some things you may never discover on your own, just going to school and being around other (would be developers) gives you better experience, you are able to share ideas and discuss techniques far better than on your own, imo.

I dropped out of a computer studies course, and then fluked lots of great work, hurray!

( hmm perhaps not the best way to go ).

As ever I agree with the big fella above, there is a lot you can learn on your own, but experience working with lots of other people, esp. designers, is worth it's weight in gold.
No matter what you think you know, or how hot you think you are, working in an enviroment with a tight deadline and a lot of amends really brings you up to speed. It's proper sink or swim.

Squize.

ya, I probably wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for people saying "it would be awesome if you could shoot magical poo's at those angry squirrel dudes"

My cleaner is better qualified than I am.

I have to say NOT going to college has probably been the best decision I ever made. I think it is a complete waste of time AND money to go pay some college to tell you what you should be learning.

I think a much better use of your time would be to just go to classes that YOU think would be interesting to your education. You can do this. I've been to a few classes in the local college w/o paying, they allow you to sit in. Also you can download and watch many MIT courses online: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Brain-and-...otes/index.htm

College takes way too much time and wastes alot of time on learning things that could be learned in a fraction of the time. If I want to learn some stuff about history, I take a couple of hours or a whole day and just do some massive research on the subject.

I wanted to learn flash...so I spent 3 weeks and learned programming from scratch and now every once in a while I will read a book on OOP / Design Patterns. I am pretty sure I know more about programming than most college graduates...because I originally DID try to go to college for computer science but it was just too boring.

I really feel like college is a place for people to "discover" themselves and for people who don't know what they want out of life to go. Once I "discovered" myself about a month after starting freshman year I was done with college and haven't looked back.

Anyway, those are just my personal opinions. I know some won't agree with me, however you really have to discover the answer for yourself.

Here is a good read:
http://news-service.stanford.edu/new...bs-061505.html

Colby, I pretty much agree.

Being self-educated does have its pitfalls though. I find myself mispronouncing things I've read that hard working students would have heard directly from a lecturer.

New industries like digital media and flash development create a huge vacuum of demand that has to be filled by people that didn't study to do this kind of work. Which is precisely why it's populated by dropouts, hobbyists, physicists, art students, designers, musicians etc. etc. etc.

Although I flash and game programming is only a hobby/side-job for me, I am a software developer as a full-time job. I'm going to cautiously disagree with the prevailing statement above that a college education is a waste of time.
Yes, you can teach yourself. Yes, you'll HAVE to teach yourself the new stuff that wasn't even around when you were in college. But the point of an education is not to learn any one concrete skill or language, it is to form a foundation on which you can build your own pursuit of knowledge.
Game development, once you get past trifling little projects, is about 60% code architecture, 30% math, and 10% art. And sometimes the math turns out to be even more important.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the theoretical underpinnings are extremely important for doing stuff that goes beyond the superficial.

Vengeance:
Making education choices based around 1 software application is pretty short-sighted. Flash might not be around in 10 years. So then what? I was a Deluxe Paint expert back in '92, but what good does that do me now? Some people forget that the point of higher education after HS isn't just to find *a job* in Field X, it's also to feed your mind in a range of topics, and give you a range of skills.

I'll agree that 5 years spent learning on the job is better than 5 years accumulating debt, but there's the very real risk that he could end up with lots of holes in his skillset. Not everyone has the ability to self-manage their career, skills and knowledge the same way a "squize" or "tomsamson" has. I'll bet for every squize there are thousands of people left working crappy jobs because they just couldn't find their way on their own.

Also, of those of you who dropped out of higher studies, how many of you still list that on your resume? Does it say "dropped out"? I bet it doesn't. It probably says you attended and you leave it to the interviewer to ask if they suspect you didn't graduate, right? So technically, you still benefit from having attended SOME form of post-secondary education!

I think I've gotten a lot out of college. I think 5tons nailed it: It's not about learning just what they teach you, it's about getting a foundation of knowledge, that you can build on top of as you wish.

What you get out of college is also going to be highly dependent upon your choice of major. If your degree is turning into a four-year rehash of K-12, then yeah I'd skip it too.

I`m not familiar with USA study system,
but just take any courses/studies that connected with Physic/Math/Math-logic.
it will helps a great in programing games =)
but you can study that by your self, just start to do smt, and finish it - you will learn a much more.
When I was applying for my first job in life as flash-game-developer, I had in portfolio 3 games(now I shy when I showing them=) )
now I have much more, and I`m working for my self, and all earnings from my games i`m publishing in my blog... (not sure is it polite to post it here) if you interested in earnings of average flash indi game developer - feel free to pm me.

This is all great advice. :) Personally I'm planning to take courses in Applied Maths and some kind of physics to supplement it (Newtonian physics is a no-brainer, but it'd be nice to learn some particle physics, too).

Not seeing any artists talking about their career/education paths here. I'd be really interested to hear what Render has to say, since he seems to be quite heavily involved in both coding and art.

And I do agree that being ready and willing to learn a language of your own accord is worth more than any qualification; it'll help you survive the rollercoaster ride of changes that is the games industry. :)

Ray, you said Deluxe Paint, that always makes me giddy :)

My reply was kinda glib at the start. I can't stress it enough, I have been very very lucky. Don't get me wrong, I've worked really hard to get the knowledge I have, but there's a lot of luck involved [ To be in the position I am now ].
There have been a lot of really good people here who have helped out along the way, and to who I'm really grateful to. So just 'cause I've been lucky, don't take that as the norm. There are a lot of people a lot more talented than myself stuck in God awful jobs.

I would really recommend going to Uni, if for nothing else the experience itself. I'm not in a position to recommend a course, I have read recently that a lot of places are offering game developer degrees 'cause they have people kicking the door down to do it, and a lot of those courses are pretty poor.
So a lot of research is needed. I'd look to contact as many game companies as possible and ask them what sort of degree they look for ( A lot are maths / psychics but if you want to do a specific game course, asking them if they recognise them ).

Same goes if it's a web design role ( Be that in Flash or whatever ). Go to theFWA.com and look at all the top agencies there and get in touch asking what they look for.

[Edit, beat me to the reply V :) In terms of designers, nearly everyone I know has a history in Fine Arts ]

Squize.

College (college, 2 yrs BTEC not University) is good.
Of course it's specific to where you go, but I found it useful.
I wouldn't know about certain programming techniques or data structures such as binary trees, linked lists, assembler, basic heuristics, microcontroller programming, recursive functions, loop unrolling, amongst others.

You can teach yourself, doesn't mean you should! Not all education institutions are a waste of time but personally I found university -not college- to be one.

I would like to think that college isn't a waste of time, as I'm 1 week away from commencement ceremonies for my Associates in Applied Science specifying in Computer Programming...

I've had to study over a 1/2 dozen languages the junior college I currently attend, and it always pisses me off that, of the 300 or so desktops this school openly offers, there is ONE (which I am currently at) with Flash 8 installed. Also, I've mentioned actionscript in all my classes since I joined up here and I get one of two typical responses. It's either "WHAT THE **** IS ACTIONSCRIPT" or "IS THAT WHAT YOU USE TO MAKE THE DUMB WEB GAMES IN FLASH?"... I typically walk around campus with white knuckles...

When I finish my third year after this semester, I'm transferring out to a 4 year university to finish my bachelors in Game Design & Simulation. Personally I've heard people tell me good and bad things about the field and campus, but I've been passionate about programming since I was ~8 years old, and in the end I think for me it's less about money and more about being able to acheive my dreams of creating main stream games.

As a bonus and a fall back plan, the simulation portion would allow me to spin out of game programming and do simulation is the medical, dental, and military areas, so I think in my oppinion it's a great choice and opportunity for me.

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Originally Posted by Squize

I dropped out of a computer studies course, and then fluked lots of great work, hurray!

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I'd love to see you try that in the states, pal. :) As I hear it from out-of-state friends and family, looking at the south east US to be the last glimmering hope for salvation of a career in programming at this point. Probably means when I finally get my Bachelor's degree I'll have to move to India...

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Originally Posted by ImprisonedPride

As I hear it from out-of-state friends and family, looking at the south east US to be the last glimmering hope for salvation of a career in programming at this point. Probably means when I finally get my Bachelor's degree I'll have to move to India...

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Texas here. South, but not in "the South".

There's plenty of good programming work still here. So much so that they keep bringing in foreigners to do it :rolleyes:. No, seriously, if you're decent at it you can find a good job, particularly in web application development.

The school should give wide area of knowledge and should be place and time to try out different things.

Modern programming languages are all very much same so knowing basics of programming theory allows you to learn any of them when needed. Best way to learn programming language is to use it, not listen or read about it. But if you can, you should try out all different kinds so you know what they are used for and how they differ.

But if you want to design games, not simply write code, everything is useful. Physics, history, color theory, psychology, animation etc.

"I'd love to see you try that in the states, pal."

You say that mate, but you've got Disney on your client list in your cv now, such as V, who doesn't live in London, has CandyStand on his. Location isn't too big a deal imho ( If you want to freelance ).

I'm aiming to run off to Spain as soon as I've got two years tax returns, and I don't think it'll affect me getting work.

The key thing to remember is that there's a real shortage of good Flash developers.
It may not seem it if you go to any portal, but work out what percentage of those games are actually any good. Then from that calculate how many of the good games are on par in terms of presentation with good advergames. Next, realise that not all those coders can just produce a game to order, with a very specific brief, a deadline, and a designer laying down exactly how they want it to be ( Without even taking into account the possability of having to work as part of a team, where you're not the sole coder, and you're actually down the pecking order ).
It's one thing taking 6 months over a personal project where you can tweak and backtrack and get lots of feedback, hell even have a break for a couple of weeks if you want, it's another to turn around a game that's as good as everything else out there in 3 weeks.

Anyway, back to the thread at hand...

Squize.

"You say that mate, but you've got Disney on your client list in your cv now, such as V, who doesn't live in London, has CandyStand on his. Location isn't too big a deal imho ( If you want to freelance )."

True, but I only got that job from a firm stationed in London. :)

I think you have to learn by yourself because when learning by yourself you learn the necessary parts to "create" something, I also think you should study to fill those little blanks to become great creating "something", and become better by learning things that can make your work amazing like: graphic design, physics, art, Math, etc.
I think that people should never stop studying because people never learn everything completely, there is always something new, this world is in constant change, and it will never stop...

http://www.apollopony.net/images/solar_storm.jpgIt will stop if this happens :p

WTF Neverland, that's the sun. What's your point? And aren't you like 14 years old? You haven't live yet.

I tried to break the tension with the earth exploding,
BTW I'm 20

It looks like a massive bogey.

And 20 is still way young. You haven't lived yet :)

I just got a flash game programmer job starting next month in a big game company who are starting to make some Flash content.
It doesn't really matter if you're self-taught or school-taught as long as it's something you love to do. All the nights spent making your own games is what will look the most impressive.

I second Hatu : I'm fully part of the recruiting process in my company ( though my voice is usually more impactfull when it's about applicants on the graphic side ) and the first thing we look at is the portfolio : we couldn't care less where you learned Flash, what matters is how high your skills are... the portfolio is the first thing we can judge on, the interview the second

Personnally, when I look at a portfolio, i'm extremely attentive to the "out of work" projects : someone that spend its free time to do some flash work ( wether it's a game or a fan-site, or animation ... ) scores points in my book :)
I'd rather work with someone that loves/eat/breathes what he/she does rather than someone that just considers it as a job, but has no particular connection with it : I know it's biased, but you gotta find stuff to differenciate candidates :)

from my expierence (worked for 4 agencies before+ multimedia study @ univiersity) all that counted so far was my portfolio- even if I had sometimes the disadvantage of beeing to young.
So in my oppinion College or University is the best oppertunity to pimp your portfolio and do things you wouldn´t have the time for or get the chance at a paid position.
University is and was till now the best time of my life- imo. it´s like a better preperation for the future and your job . Usually you can pick from the more interesting jobs once graduated compared to leaving straight highschool and apply for some smaler agency.

"And 20 is still way young. You haven't lived yet"

how much years is considered "lived yet".

I think that even if higher education isn't directly related to what you want to do, it is something that can help open doors.

It may just be me, but while a portfolio counts for a lot, having to tell someone you only have a highschool degree wouldn't be that much fun.

Also, while there may not be a "Flash" course, logic can be applied to any programming language, and graphics design is of course an integral part of flash.

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Originally Posted by Never_land:(

"And 20 is still way young. You haven't lived yet"

how much years is considered "lived yet".

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I understand being talked to like your opinion doesn't matter can be offensive. I would feel that way too.

The discussion here is about careers, which for the most part is how a person will make a living, maybe eventually support a family, buy a house, contribute to the world, and save up for retirement over 4 decades. The average age of a high school graduate is about 18. Retirement is around 65. That's a span of 47 years. A lot happens in that time. A lot changes. People who have lived through 10-20 years of change will have a much better perspective on how a younger person should prepare for that.

Again, no offense intended.

Ok, I understand I can look very inmature sometimes.