Finding good flash game developers

id be interested to hear if anyone else has had problems finding good flash devs. there seems to be a lot of people interested in the games industry but every time we look for someone new we've been disappointed in the cvs that come through.

feel free to pm if you have any suggestions or know anyone. after experienced people only, a very good opportunity! :)

we're in the uk which is supposed to be a good source of devs, admittedly we're outside of london. has anyone found a good source of superstar flashers?

I might be able to help you out. I am also 'outside London' :) .... Birmingham, to be exact. This site lists some samples of work I've done:

http://www.taymai.com

Philippe

possible reasons:
- even I dont know your url of the agency- maybe its just unknown to the majority of candidates (and there could be alot of reasons for that)

- maybe just the wrong people apply in your agency- I know some agencies that scout for people (boards, universities, events,...) even willing to do some xtra stuff to get them.

- you live outside londen

- your expectations are to high, not everyone can be a super flasher in fact many beginners have to learn alot in the agency to be able to fullfill their job


but still do you only look at the CV´s or also at the portfolio, website,...? What´s wrong with the CV- do they have to less expierence (highschool graders,..), are they to young,...

Paul, it's a really widespread problem. There are a lot of average to crap Flash developers out there, and those are just the ones doing banner ads never mind games.
Even looking here, there are about 5/10 people I'd trust with outsourcing a project to, and isn't this the "biggest" Flash games forum ?

On the plus side, us freelancers get to pick and choose and charge stupid money, hurray! :)

( Ok, not that helpful, sorry ).

Squize.

I think the problem is there is a lot of people that want to be game developers and many are either very inexperienced or don’t have what it takes. Game development can also be expensive (if you want to do a decent game) and companies are not always willing to pay for good developers. From my experience, here in the UK, the best developers usually want to work from home anyway because there is enough work and they like the freedom. I develop games myself but I also outsource some of the game coding from time to time. Building a network of talented developers rather than trying to employ them seems to be the best answer.

Paul I've seen DI advertising I think. It looks like a great job. Say hi to everyone for me.

From what I'm hearing it's hard enough finding perm staff in London because of the freelance rates and the skills shortage at the higher end of the market. Game dev plus xml integration plus OOP means you do need a high calibre of developer, this will limit you quite a bit.

I think your best bet is to hire enthusiastic juniors and train them up. Other than that - Outsourcing smaller jobs like ThinkerThinker said?

thanks for the feedback guys.

i dont want to put company names here but can give more info in pm if anyones interested. is a fun place to work. lesli made it out alive ( hey JC :) )

been down the outsourcing route, never really worked out. devs need to work alongside designers and each other and its not much fun supporting someone elses work.

portfolios are probably just as important as CVs, if not more so.

enthusiastic juniors would work but theyre not easy to find either. as far as experienced guys go our expectations may be quite high but we are willing to pay for that. true though that most people prefer to freelance, doesnt help if youre trying to expand a stable company though.

just seems that people arent interested in carreer opportunities now, they want to make a quick buck. even if its a really good opportunity.

P

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Originally Posted by mrpauly99

thanks for the feedback guys.
portfolios are probably just as important as CVs, if not more so.

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I want to first see some sample games, then I look at the CV, then I want to see some sample code, then I check references. The other thing I've learned from hard experience is first work with a developer on a freelance basis on a couple of projects and then ask him/her to join because sample games, cvs and even interviews do not indicate compatibility with the company and the rest of the team.

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Originally Posted by mrpauly99

just seems that people aren’t interested in career opportunities now, they want to make a quick buck. Even if its a really good opportunity.

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I am not sure this is true (not from what I've seen anyway). What is true is that developers are beginning to realise that companies make a lot of money from their experience, talent and hard work in exchange for a salary and some income security. More and more people realise the job security bait is a thin promise and they can't see why they should not be the ones that benefit financially from their work to the same level companies do. This translates into working for your self.

In my opinion, if you want to grow a stable company with a super hot, dynamic and self driven team, you need to offer them a slice of the cake. Set up a division, set clearly defined criteria and give everyone shares proportional to their input, experience and performance. In this way you offer security through the company as a whole as well as give them the reward they expect from their work, creativity and talent. You also then have a highly motivated team that takes responsibility for the success of the company. There is just one serious danger: it will only work with the right type of people. They have to be self driven, entrepreneurial, visionaries with loads of ambition.

maybe you could elaborate what´s wrong in your oppinion regarding the CV of the candidates you had so far. Imo. its just some background- not the important part that makes out someone.
If you seek very talented people- then the portfolio matters almost only imo.

From my personal expierence the portfolio countet always like 80%- the rest usually through a personal chat. It´s not that I have something to hide on my CV but rather that it didn´t matter to anyone that much so far.

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Originally Posted by mrpauly99

id be interested to hear if anyone else has had problems finding good flash devs. there seems to be a lot of people interested in the games industry but every time we look for someone new we've been disappointed in the cvs that come through.

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Never an easy task to find talented people ...

We tried to hire recently, had a some guys at the office, never even bothered to look at their CV, just had a look at the portfolio and invited them for a "chat and coding session".

For me that is quite a good "test", give them a task that can be done in an hour or so and see what comes out.

Most of them were students (you know "get them young, eager to prove themselves"), some did very impressive stuff, but they weren't able to do their tasks in time (not even close), oh well I should have known when I saw the bunch of never finished engines, tests, games ...

Although, I must admit that one or two of them were really good, but alas had no idea what makes a game - but thought they know.

We now have some freelancers with at least a few years experience (it didn't have to be flash experience, though) but they *know* how to finish stuff. ( They are of course a bit more expensive.)

Good luck p.

"I want to see some sample code"

I've been asked for sample code before, which I always find a bit, dunno, rude. I don't even know if that's the word I'm looking for. It's like "Here's my cv, here's what I've done, that should be enough". I guess I take it as a slight of my ability and it rubs me up the wrong way, even though it shouldn't 'cause there are some very stylish games out there with shocking code.

"they *know* how to finish stuff"

That's so vital. Incomplete work isn't worth jack no matter how clever it may be imho. It's so much easier making something wow if you know you don't have to actually complete it, you can skip lots of important aspects which you'd need to do on a real project.

"been down the outsourcing route, never really worked out"

Why was that if I can be nosy ? Was the dev going in a different direction to the designer ( Which a lot of devs do ) or was it because the project was quite fluid so needed the designer and dev to be really on top of it together ? Or... ?

Squize.

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Originally Posted by Squize

"I want to see some sample code"

I've been asked for sample code before, which I always find a bit, dunno, rude. I don't even know if that's the word I'm looking for. It's like "Here's my cv, here's what I've done, that should be enough". I guess I take it as a slight of my ability and it rubs me up the wrong way, even though it shouldn't 'cause there are some very stylish games out there with shocking code.

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If it's a professional company they need to know how good your code is of course. You'll be working as a part of a team so if you don't know your OOP and design patterns, you won't be much help

Don't get me wrong, I understand the justification of it, I just personally don't like having to provide code.

Squize.

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Originally Posted by hatu

If it's a professional company they need to know how good your code is of course. You'll be working as a part of a team so if you don't know your OOP and design patterns, you won't be much help

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Not at all, I've worked top agencies where I had to keep the code simple enough for designers to understand. Depends how code-centred the company is. In one case I've also fallen out with the same agency for not sticking to a textbook design pattern. Go figure :rolleyes:

As for code samples.. I've always found it hard to provide something appropriate... I have lots of code I could provide, but the best stuff is usually owned by someone else, which is a bit of a legal grey area, especially if they want to see it executed with an FLA.

A single 100% custom class you can talk through with another developer is the best option, but in the 10-20 or so times ive provided sample code, ive never been asked to explain it, whether I got the work or not.

is a flash developer just a code monkey? - (if I look sometimes around here it seems to be the only thing some can do)I dont think so myself but that might be just me.

And just by looking at examples a expierenced flash developer (!== flash:coder) should be able to tell what kind of level of coding was involved (physics, dynamic loading assets/binary/xml/sprites/..., 3d, tiles).

Just like Squize,- I´d rather find it odd,- better have a session together and let that person show how he handles with certain problems/ tasks- it´s not just about the nazi coding grammar - but also creativity (if you lack on something improve it with something else) this and many other things can´t be determined just by looking at a code.

In the worst case scenario the person could just download a *.fla or some classes alter it slightly and state it would be his (like all the flash 5 art based super mario engines)

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Originally Posted by lesli_felix

Not at all, I've worked top agencies where I had to keep the code simple enough for designers to understand. Depends how code-centred the company is. In one case I've also fallen out with the same agency for not sticking to a textbook design pattern. Go figure :rolleyes:

As for code samples.. I've always found it hard to provide something appropriate... I have lots of code I could provide, but the best stuff is usually owned by someone else, which is a bit of a legal grey area, especially if they want to see it executed with an FLA.

A single 100% custom class you can talk through with another developer is the best option, but in the 10-20 or so times ive provided sample code, ive never been asked to explain it, whether I got the work or not.

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I think it has more to do with the size of the project and the team working on it.
I'm currently working for a company on a MMO and obviously it would be impossible to do that with people not following the principles of good programming and design.

A lot of companies make only small projects with only one programmer guy and there you can do pretty much whatever you want because no one else understands what you're doing.
Still trying to make reusable stuff is useful as it will eventually make you work faster and opens new possibilities in the future to join bigger teams.

For code samples, I sent the whole source of one of my games and gave some pointers on the e-mail so the guy wouldn't have to browse through everything.
This was after the interview so not just out of the blue, but to make sure I wasn't talking crap I guess

In my experience, those who can develope games well, tend to work for themselves (freelance, own clients, etc). Those who can't are the ones out there looking for "a job". You can certainly find people with potential and groom them to become good game coders though. So the trick is figuring out which candidate has that potential.

it does seem like freelance is where all the good ones are at right now...

out of interest where would you guys look if you were looking for a full time flash job? ideally in the uk.

P

miniclip? or nitrome?

There isn't really one good place that comes to mind.

thefwa has some good jobs, but they're not all uk based. Linked-in has some too.

To be honest if I was looking for a full time job I'd pm all the London guys on this board as someone always knows some work that's floating around, and failing that I'd just contact design agencies directly.
There's no one good site that I know of ( Or can remember ), most offering freelance work as well as perm, which means they're spammed up with people offering to hand over their kids for $50 to ensure they get the gig.

Sorry mate [ That I can't be more help ], I know it's a joke that you can't even give a good job away.

Squize.

Ovidiu got it right. I'd look at the big names first and see if they have any openings. After that probably look at monster.com or something and see if there are any with a really good pay and/or reputation and/or games

I think part of the problem is that Flash isn't seen as "proper" games programming by games developers. I know because up until a year ago I had the same view myself.

There's a shift happening, though -- developers are realising (finally!) that games aren't necessarily about how many polys you can pump out, how good your bump mapping is, and we're getting to the point now where each generation of hardware is less and less "wow" and more and more "meh".

So I think there's going to be more "hardcore" games programmers making the leap into Flashland soon - they've heard that you can use proper coding tools (Eclipse) instead of that noddy timeline nonsense, and with Flash 10 they'll get enough hardware grunt to satisfy their need to show off :D

But they aint gonna come cheap....

Another thing that needs to happen is for agencies to understand the development process better. They've managed to bodge their way through projects up to now, but as project size and code complexity increases there's going to be some formalisation put in place.

Erm, what was the question again...? :D

We have a terrible time finding quality developers and so we latch on pretty hard when we do find them. It just takes time and networking to track them down.

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Originally Posted by Ray Beez

In my experience, those who can develope games well, tend to work for themselves (freelance, own clients, etc). Those who can't are the ones out there looking for "a job".

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I think I can develop games, and sites, pretty well, yet I choose to have "a job". It gives me the stability I need to pay off my house, and I don't have to deal with all the paperwork etc that comes with the freelancer status (at least here in Belgium it's quite a pain, don't know about other places).

At our company, we also had a hard time finding a new coder. We ended up hiring someone with little experience, but he shows potential. At the moment, he doesn't really lower the workload much, but I'm sure he'll catch on quickly. (Funny, he knew two of my personal games).

Not sure where I would look for flash work to be honest...I just kind of fell upon some freelance I'm doing by suggestion from a friend. I'd probably have to move a very long distance to get a "real job" doing it anyway.

I guess if I wanted a "real job" I'd just wait until I saw someone posting an ad on this forum or Kong or something because it seems like I see a "killer job offer" being posted atleast once a month.

There are flash game developers dime a dozen.
You can hire them in websites such as, "getacoder", and "freelancer".

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Originally Posted by Tormenter

There are flash game developers dime a dozen.
You can hire them in wbsites sch as, getacoder, and freelancer.

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You can, but my experience of outsourcing to people like that has been that it's a complete waste of time and effort. Last time I tried anything like that was a few years ago - perhaps the quality has improved since then.

I think it's very true - you get what you pay for.

Mind, I've come across expensive useless people, too :)

"You can hire them in websites such as, "getacoder", and "freelancer""

*shudder*

Whenever I've looked at those sites ( It's like midget porn, that curiosity thing ) it's been "clients" with the most unrealistic expectations ( The moon on a stick for $100 ) and 40 replies to everyone saying they can do it for even less than the quoted price.

There's a world of difference between someone who can do a drag and drop game for $100 and someone who can do something better, on time and on budget ( And that's why freelance rates are so stupidly inflated, and that's why companies like Paul's struggle to find anyone with experience ).
It does seem the best way is to get someone young and with a fire in them to be the best, and invest the time in training them on the job.

Squize.

Yes, my favourite was "we'd like a rip off of Sim City, in three weeks, for $500".

And chumps bid on it too.

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It does seem the best way is to get someone young and with a fire

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No, the best way is to do it yourself ( unless for some reason you don't feel like working ).

There is a reason for that saying: "If you want it done right, do it yourself"

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Originally Posted by MikeMD

No, the best way is to do it yourself ( unless for some reason you don't feel like working ).

There is a reason for that saying: "If you want it done right, do it yourself"

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Weird statement, if you have a company that's not an option. If my bosses would have to do everything themselves, well, they would have to do 20 shifts a week or something... plus they're not really coders.

Yeah Mike, the thread is about Paul finding it near impossible to find anyone good to fill a vacancy, not how we can farm work out to other people to make an extra couple of quid.

Squize.

just as a follow up. conclusion is noone wants to be a full time flash dev it seems. freelancers are living the good life n are able to pick and choose.

dammit.

The agency I'm at now has the same problem, they're training up two of their designers to do actionscript, and piling their backlog of AS work on me whilst I'm here. All good fun.

I still want to break out and do indy game work permanently, but it ain't happening yet because I have some expensive habits and need to keep contracting.

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Originally Posted by mrpauly99

just as a follow up. conclusion is noone wants to be a full time flash dev it seems. freelancers are living the good life n are able to pick and choose.

dammit.

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I'm starting to see why