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I've just posted about this over and the blog and thought I should share here too.
Mame has been ported to Flash.
( Even just writing that makes me giddy )
At present it doesn't have any sound support, but it's not exactly a deal breaker. There's a healthy clutch of games to go with it, and it's just sex really. There's no point me writing anything more, it's Mame and it's in Flash. It doesn't get any better.
http://yvern.com/fMAME/fMAME.html
Squize.
:yikes:
quite nuts,- but nice that it even runs that well
now I only have to wait till they port duke nukem 3d to flash ^^
Nice. That was one of my longshot projects to tackle in the future. Good on them for getting it done.
Awesome. Slow but awesome.
(They aren't doing frame skipping, which means slow gameplay rather than choppy motion).
Cool, It actually ran pretty good for me, only tested green beret though.
Edit:
Actually reminds me of nintendo8.com NES java emulator
PS - Remove the link if you think its not appropriate.
holy holy
i'm speechless.
Lots of fun. The initial loader could use some love, but it works great. Can't wait for sound.
Sound. Yikes. They'll have to revert to earlier MAME builds where games used sound samples. Otherwise, how to render sound waves in Flash??
Yes! GnG runs a treat. Though it does suffer without sound...
Ray, hasn't andre michelle taken care of that one?
http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tag/audio/
Yes you can render audio waves in Flash 9 but this was a hack. They will wait F10 and the new sound API to do this I guess.
This is awesome...
Makes me think about the fact that I was meant to release my z80 emulation core so i'll dig it out and add it here when I get time, I was working on the Sega Master Systems I/O and VDP emulation, think the I/O was nearly 100% done and the VDP about 20% emulated so i'll add those too and anyone who fancies it can pick it up!
RipX
While i have high respect for the technical achievment i don´t see why this is a great thing in general. I see some game developers one day *****ing about their own games getting stolen and the next day they cheer and dance for an emulator whose only reason for existance is of course to run copied games on it.
Yes, we´re all like that, we have different moral stances for ourselves than for what others do, but yeah, in this case it seems extra weird to me :)
Also as web game developer, isn´t any of you guys worried that soon many sites would just run an emulator like this instead of paying you any money for your games?
Also even if bigger portals wouldn´t do something like that for fear of legal punishment, even just few sites doing something like this (few as in around 10k-100k sites) could be enoough to make a big part of online/casual game players play such classics instead of playing your stuff.
Anyway,just some of the things i wonder about :)
In defence of emulation, for the most part it's just as much a historic project as a collection of "copied" games.
There are a lot of games that are only available via emulation, and although the legal side is a grey area, I think most people would agree it's better to have something which may be infringing copyright ( Although in the official Mame builds you have to enter OK to show you own the actual board, I imagine the same will be coming to FMame ) than let some great games just die away forever.
As to it affecting us as Flash developers, there's been a Java version of Mame for ages and it's not affected anything. Most online gamers have no interest in perfect ports of retro games ( Check out the poor reviews the really accurate ports get on places like newgrounds ) as:
* They're too young to remember the originals
* Arcade games are really hard. There's no easing the player in, they're brutal. Not many people having a browse around for games want to play something that spank their arses.
Squize.
If it´d only be about keeping a game alive that isn´t avilable in legal form in any way then i´m fine with that, also with emulation for reasearch/learning purposes, or emulation by people who are really so poor that they couldn´t even afford a 5 bucks game.
But yeah, to be honest many of the games most played on the emulators and mame are available in various other legal ways and most people could afford buying em but would rather just play em for free.
I think comparing a good flash online emulator to a java emulator is a bit like saying hey, there was always piracy and all was good, why is iit such a bad thing now that its done via the internet?.
Its the dimensions/volume there mainly, way more millions of files get copied via torrents etc today than back in the old days when someone had a 2 deck cassette recorder and copied a music casette for him and his 10 budies of course.
And likewise even if java is considerably widespread its of course nowhere near as widesparead as flash (Especially regarding browser content/playback).
So yeah, a really accesibility focussed well done flash based web emulator would have a much bigger impact than a java one in my eyes.
And yeah, true, many young guys don´t know the classics, are also not used to the tougher difficulty (though there one can get around with unlimited credits easily) and maybe aren´t especially attracted by the artstyle either.
Though yeah,many probably will be and then the mass will maybe make the difference again. I imagine it sure is teasing for many to have x hundred games available,you know, even if he doesn´t like this one he can still try x hundred-1 others.
Well, we will see once such things evolve some more.
I think one of the posts on the site of that emulator is a good indication though. There a dude said he wants to have such an emulator for his portal and asked if the developer could help him with that.
Go figure, one of the first reply posts when the thing gets released in first version.
I´d imagine wouldn´t take long till all the minijuegos there and not just those have something like that going.
I started to do a reply, and you know what, I really can't be bothered.
So much time and energy on this board is spent with people arguing their views, and I'm just a bit bored of it today I guess.
Let's agree to differ on this one.
Squize.
I just scrapped a long reply myself as well,- to tiredQuote:
So much time and energy on this board is spent with people arguing their views, and I'm just a bit bored of it today I guess.
ok, cool (personally i don´t see much of a sense in bringing up topics if all one wants is people replying who have the same view as oneself anyway, but yeah, anyway).
the real interesting thing will be if someone officially licenses ROMS to be emulated through a Flash emulator.
ChrisError x
"i don´t see much of a sense in bringing up topics if all one wants is people replying who have the same view as oneself"
Ha, it's hardly that, but what's the point of me writing what I disagree with in your posts in this thread ( Again ) ?
We could swap a 100 posts here and neither of us change our minds, so I'm just skipping the next 97 or so posts.
We've both said what our views are, and I disagree with some of what you've written, and I assume you have with what I've written so there we go. Life's like that.
It's not a case of not wanting a debate, it's a case of not being drawn into another on-going debate that won't go anywhere.
Squize.
ok then, i´m fine with agreeing to disagree :)
I won´t argue on this, just want to have your view on it, what is it that makes you as game developer think such emulators on the web are a great thing?
If i imagine i´d be one of those guys who made one of those classic games, on one side i´d probably be happy people still play this game, on the other side i imagine if i´d see such an emulator on a site like minijuegos and that site obviously makes lots of money with the game while you get nothing, i imagine that would make me just as happy as flash game developers usually are when their mochiads revenue based games get cracked and put on some other site without one´s ad.
True, I just was at my fav. game's shop yesterday and bought Dig Dug.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomsamson
I'm sure about the fact that still most arcade roms are copyrighted, so displaying them in a flash based mame port is quite questionable.
BUT I'm pretty sure that's still quite a lot of work to make it work with flash and THAT is quite a nice thing.
nGFX
Oh and just to add this: the appearance of the c64 emulator didn't have any impact at all, it came up, was awe'ed and well, pretty much went away again ...
nGFX
"BUT I'm pretty sure that's still quite a lot of work to make it work with flash and THAT is quite a nice thing."
Agreed, also if it just had some dummy ROM showing graphics / input tests no one would be interested, but yes the nature of the Flash games world, does mean that they are going to have to tread carefully with where they go from here. It's a shame isn't it, because when I played Ghosts and Goblins, I was looking at the scrolling speed, and how well it was running, and Im usre that is what the author will be thinking about too, but it will be very easy for this to end up on all sorts of the wrong sites.
ChrisError x
to Ngfx: I know you were joking but yeah, there are actually various versions of dig dug legally avilable on web stores, portable and home consoles.
And yes, you´re right, games are usually copyrighted, that hasn´t stopped the creator of this emulator though (and he has the argument its an educational non profit thing) and it probably won´t stop guys like minijuegos.
And yeah, as i said,when i put every other thing related to it out of my head and purely see it as technical achievment, then yes, its quite a nice thing to me,too :)
Regarding what you said on the c64 emulator, can´t say much on that, not informed enough. What i know is that usually freely downloadable/&playable versions of games usually have a negative imapct on sales of similar type games or even the same one if its still sold (via arcade remake or compilation etc), so i´d imagine it could be the same with some mame stuff, even more when is about selling flash web games which are technically more comparable to the emulated stuff.
http://codeazur.com.br/stuff/fc64_final/Quote:
Originally Posted by tomsamson
it was one of the first true amazing things done with as3 ... still the world had not been flooded with c64 games running in flash ...
nGFX
yeah, i know about that emulator :)
when i said i´m not well informed enough to give a comment on c64 stuff i more meant i´m not informed enough about the c64 game library, how many games there are that would still be viable on a portal today to be played by many people, how many of those c64 games are still used commercially by the creators in some way, how much of a loss they´d have etc.
also i think emulators would only take off in broad way on such portals if they make em accessible "enough" for the broad masses of casual web gamers.
Things like nice UI, nicely mapped keys, no configuration to be done on user end, maybe even taking things further than pure emulation with maybe passing the score value onto a scoreboard and things like that.
So far there seems to be no emulator like that, but i feel like its getting closer to that.
Damn it :)
"If i imagine i´d be one of those guys who made one of those classic games, on one side i´d probably be happy people still play this game, on the other side i imagine if i´d see such an emulator on a site like minijuegos and that site obviously makes lots of money with the game while you get nothing, i imagine that would make me just as happy as flash game developers usually are when their mochiads revenue based games get cracked and put on some other site without one´s ad."
But Tom, it's totally different ( The negative aspect ).
Let's say I wrote Dig Dug.
I would have done that as my day job. I would have been paid for it, maybe even got a bonus for it if it did well, but it's my job. I would be working full time for atari and collecting a monthly wage.
25 of so years later, I wouldn't expect to be making a penny from it, same as I wouldn't have made a penny more when it was a top 5 arcade game making millions for both the arcade owners and atari.
Bringing it up to date, with something like Law of the West being cracked, that affected us now. We hadn't been paid a wage for that. We got sponsor money yeah, but that was low because of the additional ad revenue we were allowed to keep.
That been cracked and spread stopped us earning the full wage that the author of Dig Dug got.
In saying that, in 25 years time I think it'd be pretty sweet to see it online somewhere still being played, even if someone else was making $0.35 every time someone played it.
Squize.
Just before I dive back into oblivion and slave away for customers here's one final note on the c64:
right now my collection of c64 games counts 21.235, though, maybe some less because of different language versions ...
'nuf said, nGFX
to Squize: Interesting points :)
Dunno what kind of deals all those developers got, if none of em makes money with the games by getting a split on returns, yeah, then there´s less the point of worrying about the developer´s missed revenue of course :)
Unless the dude still works for that company owning the rights and any profits they make somehow finance his current position/project to some degree :)
And yeah, we really have a different opinion on this one :) : If in 25 years i´d see minijuegos or a site like that making money with my game while i get none i´d still be pissed (even more so if i imagine they made that for 25 years)
By the same logic only reason for existance to Flash decompilers is to crack the games and torrent of course was created only to spread songs illegally.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomsamson
You cant blame the author of tool even when the tool is being used legally questionable ways by other people. The FMAME itself is really wonderful piece of work, same way MAME is. I doubt it will mean doom to the Flash games more then MAME has killed whole video games industry.
As for the morality: Lets be realistic.Who is really going to pay to play these games? And if there actually was someone that loved the games enough to pay for them, is this going to stop them?
Note: I don't really know what this FMAME thing is capable of, so my opinions could be offbase.
Jesus crikey, I posted this to awe at the technical achievement.
Technically every Flash game ever created and posted here is competition to each of us individually. Should we panic and complain about each one rather than critique and applaud the author???
Tom you make some good valid points. What I don't like is the way you deliver those points. You make it sound like we should all grab pitchforks and torches, and fear progress and change. (We'll call ourselves the FLuddites!)
They paid the author of Dig Dug in pretzels and juice boxes.
"Who is really going to pay to play these games?"
It's not so much that, it's where would you be able to ?
Here, even in London, there's a real shortage of arcades. Even the ones that are around, I'm not going to be able to pump money into Miss Pac Man ( tehehe ), or OutRun or AfterBurner or Mr Do's! Castle or Marble Madness or RoboCop or...
Emulation of old arcade games only causes a small hurt. Yep, that's the best I could phrase that.
Old IP is being pumped out on mobile phones, or in collection packs for handhelds ( Where you get a ton of games and a ton of extras, and those are bought by the die hard fans who need every capcom game pre '89 ) and various console d/load services.
The sort of person who uses Mame ( Which isn't the easiest thing in the world to set up, which I'm sure is on purpose ) isn't likely to be the same person who spends 800 ms points on Track & Field.
It's one thing to play an old arcade game on your big tv, in HD with surround sound, it's another to type OK at a dos prompt and then screw around configuring the game keys.
To put it in perspective about how much harm it does ( And I do know from a legal point of view it is wrong, I'm not saying it's not, but from a moral / preservation stand point I struggle to see an issue with emulating a game that is no longer making any money for anyone and that isn't hacked / amended in some way. DS / PS2 emulation is totally wrong aside from the technical achievement, but emulating Donkey Kong Jnr isn't the end of the world imho ) how many people here, and let's face it we're all game developers, have Mame installed on their machine right now and some romz for it ( Ray, that's not including you mate :) ) ?
We all may love Mame, or at least the theory of it, but how many people have it installed right now, and when was the last time you used it ?
I'm guessing very few people.
Like Tonypa said, it's not killed the game industy, and FMame won't cause any harm for us at all.
"If in 25 years i´d see minijuegos or a site like that making money with my game while i get none i´d still be pissed"
See I'd be happy to still see one of my games, 'cause it means I would have made it to 61 without dying ;)
( I can't believe I'll be that old in 25 years time )
Squize.
what is happening to the threads these days?
i actually didnt read a single post on this page... too long lol. so i dont know what to say...
To answer Squize's question.. I have MAME installed and never touch it except to occasionally research. And hey, wanna know something off on a tangeant... it can be good inspiration for games. Just look at PopCap's library. Mostly derivations of good arcade games.
Well one day a couple years ago I was playing this obscure japanese arcade game circa early 90's. It's one where you have to push balls onto matching colored floor tiles. I told myself, YES! this would make a fun casual game or at least a Flash game. Well I sat on that idea, just like I sit on all my brilliant ideas until other people step up to the plate and actually DO something with their same ideas (like games based on the home-reno craze, but I digress); --here comes Popcap to do it again: http://www.popcap.com/games/igglepop
Bam! It's based on the same game! Oh well...
HEY and while I'm purposely rambling on off-topic and pointless, yes I also have MAME installed in my full size coin-operated upright arcade machine. It's much more fun with real joysticks and arcade monitor. Again, I'm just rambling, but in line with Squize's post, that too just sits rarely used. :-D
So, how's life? If you make a sandwich with not enough mayo, it will be dry, but put too much and it will taste like mayo.
:-P