[disc] Cloned games and Trademark infringements

Did a couple of searches and didn't find anything relevant...

I have a client who wants a Pac Man clone written, but they're worried about potential trademark infringement of Namco's IP. Up till now I've avoided games that come close to infringing anything, so I have no idea exactly what you can get away with when it comes to cloning old arcade games, or making games that are strongly derivative.

I mean, there are thousands of breakout / arkanoid clones, and hundreds of pacman clones already, right? I can't imagine any of those got into trouble.

But if someone were using pacman imagery in a TV campaign to sell an unrelated product that would be a different story, and this game *will* be used to market an unrelated product. Would we be likely to get sued for using, say, the same map layout as pacman, or audio that is modernized but strongly reminiscent of the original tune? I'm really not sure how close we could make it before it becomes a problem.

On the one hand, in this case I think we will be able to change the game significantly enough to no longer be a concern, both in the artwork and gameplay. On the other hand, I don't have professional indemnity insurance or anything like that, so getting sued would be a nightmare.

Anyway, hoping that maybe some of you guys have experience and can give me some pointers on walking the fine line between acceptably derivative games and outright trademark infringement.

Doubt you will find advice on such subject from the web. If you are really worried, consult lawyer who knows exact laws in your country. In general:

* gameplay is not copyrighted
* names, graphics, music etc usually is
* richer you (or your client) are, more likely you get sued
* the fact that there is hundreds of clones already does not mean anything

Whenever I see someone throw out the term "trademark" or "copyright" or even (but to lesser extent) "patent" my first thought is to wonder if they even understand those things. Usually people don't, so bear with me as I explain each thing:

A trademark is a "mark" (name or image) used in commerce / trade. "Pac Man" the name would be a trademark. The Pac Man logo image would be a trademark. Namco has argued in the far past that the pac man "pie missing a wedge" shape is a trademark.

Copyright applies to "works" that are written, performed or created (as in art). The artwork on the side of a Pac Man machine is copyrighted. The logo is also copyrighted (even though it's also a trademark). Any artwork used on the machine, or in the game would be copyrighted. The source code for the programming is copyrighted. The compiled program code is copyrighted. Programming your own unique code is not copyright infringing.

Sound effects are grey area. A recording of a Pac Man sound effect would be copyrighted, but Pac Man's sounds are synthesized in real-time, so it's tough to claim copyright on anything but the set of instructions that make the chip do what it does. The musical notation of any tunes though are copyrighted.

You cannot copyright ideas. Ideas can be patented (and must be proven to be implementable via the patent application). You cannot copyright gameplay.

You could possibly patent certain software implementations, but software patents were not common back in 1980. Game manufacturers can't wait the almost 5 years for a patent to be granted. The game industry advances too quickly for that. But regardless, say Pac Man gameplay was patented in 1980, it would have expired in 2000, so it's still irrelevant.

So if you want to be in the clear making a clone, follow these rules:
- Don't copy any of the graphics. Make your own.
- Don't copy the maze look and layout. Make your own.
- Don't copy the characters. Invent your own.
- Don't use sounds or music from the game. Make your own.
- Don't use Pac Man programming. Script your own from scratch.
- Don't use the name or any art from the machine. Make your own.

What you'll end up with is a maze game, and Namco does not have any rights to such a generalized gameplay genre.

Some useful reading: http://www.patentarcade.com/2005/05/...-lawsuits.html

Excellent post Mr. B, should be dropped into the knowledge base.

Squize.

I found one link about Patents/copyrights pertaining to games. LINK

yup, nice post ray and and yup, will add it to the knowledge base :)

just a few remarks and additions:
"but software patents were not common back in 1980. Game manufacturers can't wait the almost 5 years for a patent to be granted."

Meanwhile game and console manufacturers are very patent happy, lots of hardware and software specifics are patented.

See Sega´s patent covering concepts in crazy taxi (and other interesting things there) as example:

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20...nberg_04.shtml

Yes, patents expire after a timespan as Ray said, so usually if its about mimicking an old classic game you´d probably only get issues if you use art/sound assets mickicking the original too close, not when you recreate gameplay concepts.

Thanks everyone for replying, especially thanks Ray. You're right of course that it would be best to err on the side of caution.

5 years to grant a software patent is news to me. I guess that's why you see 'patent pending' so often. I worked for a software company that would regularly patent trivial little game ideas, simply to stop the competition using them. That was casino hardware/software though, which was a slower moving industry than arcade machines at the time.

Really the two things I mentioned as examples are what I'd be most interested in keeping, as a homage if anything.

Once the graphics are differently themed, the maze layout boils down to a 28x31 array, and my reverse engineered array would differ internally even though the output is essentially the same. Interestingly, on the wiki page for pacman clones, one clone "taxman" was hit with a lawsuit, then after being sued, the same company released "taxman 2" which was the same but with different maps. As Ray points out, the map layout would have been under patent and not trademark, and the lawsuit was in 1981 while it would have still been covered.

As for the sound effects, what I was hoping to use was more or less a modernized cover version. To give you an idea here's the original 5 second intro theme from the 80's classic Time Pilot:
http://www.evilbastard.org/slight/introtheme.mp3

vs. a 'modernized' remake a friend made by ear from scratch:
http://www.evilbastard.org/slight/introtheme-speedy.wav

I think something like that would be fine if it were just some free to play thing on games portals, but it is probably way too close for something that will be part of a marketing campaign.

I wonder how easy it is to get permission to "clone" a game. Especially one from early 80's. If it were me, I'd love my game to get a refurbishment, given credit for the original of course ;)

Nice post by the way ray.

Regarding getting permission to remake classics, you'll probably find the original game designer does not have the rights to their own game, and the company who owns it will refuse unless there is a lot of money in it for them. :/

Just do it for fun, not commercial exploitation.

Here's an entire site dedicated to remakes of classic games: http://www.retroremakes.com/wordpress/

Hi,

Just wondering

Suppose I want to make multiplayer games like Chess, Backgammon, any solitar, pool. Classical games.

Is it legal
1 - To make these games and host on my website for players to play or generating revenue from banner where these games are hosted.

2 - Let others to host on there websites for some payment?
3 - Use these in social networks like facebook, myspace etc

Anyone please, thanks

It's perfectly legal to license games, host games with banners/ads, and put games on social networks. But I'm not sure if you would be infringing copyright laws for making flash versions of chess, backgammon, etc.

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Originally Posted by zomgguy

It's perfectly legal to license games, host games with banners/ads, and put games on social networks. But I'm not sure if you would be infringing copyright laws for making flash versions of chess, backgammon, etc.

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I won't be changing the game rules or developing anyother games with different name like chess or anything else. All I want is to develop game in Flash keeping the game rules as have. I am not sure what copyright laws apply on this as I have seen flash games like I mentioned above and are running. Any ideas?

If you have seen Flash games like those then it probably would be legally okay. I'm not even sure if game concepts like chess, backgammon etc have copyrights on them. However, your game wouldn't be so popular if there are already Flash games like the ones you mentioned.

Dude, most of those games are older than Jesus. Who would hold copyright on them?

Yeah, for sure.

Backgammon is about 5000 years old, Go is about 4000, Chess about 2000, pool & billiards 700 years old. draughts/checkers about 400 & solitaire 300 years old. None of them have a known creator/inventor, although there are a few legends....

Go to www.musopen.com and grab some public domain classical music to go with the game.

Ahh, interesting thread.

Is it illegal to make a flash game using ideas from another game?. For example; there is this game called Wings of Fury on Amiga http://hol.abime.net/1725, I want to make a remake of that game. What I would do would be making it identical, but completely new graphics, sound, music, levels and of course, another titel. But anyone who have played WoF would ofc know that this remake would be a clone.

So, is it legal to copy a game's mechanics and ideas, but making everything, except the ideas, yourself?

Depends on the game, the ideas and the mechanics.

With many game ideas, you'll see those ideas repeated in earlier and later games, in which case, you'll probably be safe. I can't imagine how making a scrolling ww2 plane shooter could be a copyrighted idea, especially as there have been quite a few of them.

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Originally Posted by lesli_felix

Depends on the game, the ideas and the mechanics.

With many game ideas, you'll see those ideas repeated in earlier and later games, in which case, you'll probably be safe. I can't imagine how making a scrolling ww2 plane shooter could be a copyrighted idea, especially as there have been quite a few of them.

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Well, I havn't played any game like this. Sure, there are many scrolling plane games, but in this one, you start on a ship, can turn in the air, cool turning animation, when going too far upwards, everything is zoomed out.... your goal is to bomb people on different islands, or sink ships with torpedoes.

So, main thing in this game is, fly and drop bombs on stuff..... every other side scrolling flying game I've played is just shooting, not bombing, and no zoom when flying far up.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ZS_xpVFZQ

Can I have clearance from you guys that this could be safe to do?. I know you don't know 100% of course, it just makes me feel better if you guys at least "think" it's ok to clone :).

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lesli_felix

Yeah, for sure.

Backgammon is about 5000 years old, Go is about 4000, Chess about 2000, pool & billiards 700 years old. draughts/checkers about 400 & solitaire 300 years old.

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I get the whole point.

Onething more which I want to confirm. You have seen and played board games like scrabble, monopoly etc. There are many board games. Is it ok to make flash games for that?. Keeping the logic and everything same, no changes. We know there inventors exist. So what you say on that?

Merged the threads.

One more thing.

Can we make DiceWars multiplayer version?
Game is here http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/dice/dice.html

Because I can't find the inventor or copyrights, trademark etc?

I saw someone made same game www.kdice.com with multiplayer option but game logic and graphics same.

Is it legal to make this game for fun play. But where hosted will have paid banners etc for earning to run the site?

Just asking.

Nice to merge similar threads, but how about encouraging people to go back and read the entire thing? Pirzada, Geneve, ... read my post above!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ray Beez

So if you want to be in the clear making a clone, follow these rules:
- Don't copy any of the graphics. Make your own.
- Don't copy the maze look and layout. Make your own.
- Don't copy the characters. Invent your own.
- Don't use sounds or music from the game. Make your own.
- Don't use Pac Man programming. Script your own from scratch.
- Don't use the name or any art from the machine. Make your own.

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1. - Don't copy any of the graphics. Make your own.
Do you mean, don't use any of the original graphics, or do you mean don't make your graphics look like the original?

2. - Don't copy the maze look and layout. Make your own.
As I'm wondering about this side scrolling flying game, all the levels in this game looks almost the same:

You start at a ship, fly left or right and bomb an island...

Would be hard to not have my game using the same look and layout as I too want to fly from a hangar and bomb stuff on an island. Would it be okay to make my game like the orignal?. Of course, the island will not have the trees, houses etc placed at the exact same spot.

3. - Don't copy the characters. Invent your own.
See nr 1.

4. - Don't use sounds or music from the game. Make your own.
Ok, that one is 100% clear :).

5. - Don't use Pac Man programming. Script your own from scratch.
Do you mean, don't take any of the original programming, ie; open the game up and read the code somehow.... or do you mean do my own code but not coded like the orignal game?... or do you just mean to do my own code and code in any way I want?

6. - Don't use the name or any art from the machine. Make your own.
I understand the title of the game should not be used, but how about simple things like having the things the plane can drop named "bomb" "torpedo" etc the same in my game as the original?.... maybe didn't explain it too well.... the game has bombs and torpedoes which you can drop, is it ok if the stuff my game can drop also are called and IS bombs and torpedoes?

By "any art from the machine", do you mean like a Pac Man specific cabinet art, or art from the game?

add a little bit more common sense and you have propably replies to most of your questions.
Nobody is going to sue you if you take some ingredients (idea wise) from different media's. And ideas can be anything from: logic, mechanics, art-style, music theme or anything inbetween.
Just dont make it to obvious- always add a custom spice to it otherwise it would be indeed a bloody booring clone.

With that many questions are you that insecure creating something unique?

Thanks for the link Ray I want my two hours of playing remakes back now thanks. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pirzada

I get the whole point.

Onething more which I want to confirm. You have seen and played board games like scrabble, monopoly etc. There are many board games. Is it ok to make flash games for that?. Keeping the logic and everything same, no changes. We know there inventors exist. So what you say on that?

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You should definitely steer clear of remaking scrabble or monopoly without significant changes. Hasbro still makes a ton of money on those.

OK I'm going to answer these questions as best I can, because I get the impression Geneve is real young and maybe stuff isn't as obvious...

**NOTE** I'm not a lawyer, so following any of this advice, here or previously posted is at your own risk. I am not responsible.**

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geneve

1. - Don't copy any of the graphics. Make your own.
Do you mean, don't use any of the original graphics, or do you mean don't make your graphics look like the original?

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Both. Don't "rip" graphics from the existing game, and don't make yours too similar*. There is such a thing as "derivative works" which for example, if you made a platform game with a character that looked amazingly similar to Mickey Mouse, you'd be asking for trouble. Disney owns Mickey. But drawing your own version of an airplane won't be a problem, unless you go and stick a Boeing logo on it. Know what I mean? Use some common sense.

Quote:

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2. - Don't copy the maze look and layout. Make your own.
As I'm wondering about this side scrolling flying game, all the levels in this game looks almost the same:

You start at a ship, fly left or right and bomb an island...

Would be hard to not have my game using the same look and layout as I too want to fly from a hangar and bomb stuff on an island. Would it be okay to make my game like the orignal?. Of course, the island will not have the trees, houses etc placed at the exact same spot.

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You're fine. Nobody owns a copyright on a tree, or a roof top, etc...

Quote:

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3. - Don't copy the characters. Invent your own.
See nr 1.

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Airplanes are airplanes. I don't know why you're worried about that.

Quote:

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5. - Don't use Pac Man programming. Script your own from scratch.
Do you mean, don't take any of the original programming, ie; open the game up and read the code somehow.... or do you mean do my own code but not coded like the orignal game?... or do you just mean to do my own code and code in any way I want?

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It means don't rip out original code. If the game you're immitating is a Flash game, DON'T use a SWF decompiler and don't rip out scripts. Make your own.

Quote:

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6. - Don't use the name or any art from the machine. Make your own.
I understand the title of the game should not be used, but how about simple things like having the things the plane can drop named "bomb" "torpedo" etc the same in my game as the original?.... maybe didn't explain it too well.... the game has bombs and torpedoes which you can drop, is it ok if the stuff my game can drop also are called and IS bombs and torpedoes?

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Come on, are you serious?

Quote:

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By "any art from the machine", do you mean like a Pac Man specific cabinet art, or art from the game?

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I was talking about the art that decorates a Pac Man video arcade machine.


Hey Pirzada, Hasbro (and Mattel) are very protective of their boardgame properties. Just Google for "Scrabulous" and you'll find out how some guys on Facebook got sued. Why they got sued was their game had a name too similar to "Scrabble" trademark, and it played and looked exactly the same. They then released a new version with a unique name and the board art different, and the letter pieces are rounded. Now it's different enough to be ok.

Thanks Ray for clearing up my questions, and yes, I was serious in all of them :). I'm a bit weird-minded I've been told and can usually intrepret a normally easy undestood-one way directed message into several different ways... to me most of them wasn't clear as they could have meant several things..... ofc, to most people, they are one-way interpreted.... but I think too much :P. So using common sense doesn't help for me :D.

Quote:

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Hey Pirzada, Hasbro (and Mattel) are very protective of their boardgame properties. Just Google for "Scrabulous" and you'll find out how some guys on Facebook got sued. Why they got sued was their game had a name too similar to "Scrabble" trademark, and it played and looked exactly the same. They then released a new version with a unique name and the board art different, and the letter pieces are rounded. Now it's different enough to be ok.

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Yeah, not smart to make the game play the same AND use a very similar title. But this plane game, even if plane games are existing in an abundance, a game like this I've never played before..... but will ofc use a completely different title, but afraid the level design will be almost the same.... also the mechanics on how you stear, turn etc, they are actually a bit special imo....

Play mechanics are not copyrighted!!!