[DISC] MochiCoins

Alright Squize, I'll take the bait...

What do you guys think about MochiCoins?
(Microtransaction system for Flash games).

If you haven't seen them yet, you can check them out in my game:
Plant Pong Deluxe
There are a few items you can get for free in the game, though you'll still need to create an account.

I don't think the (rushed) implementation of them in Plant Pong is ideal, but I do think there is some potential to do some cool stuff with it (and hopefully to make some cash too).

For most Flash games, especially for those in the scope of what I typically make, I think it will work best to use them to allow players to purchase game 'enhancements'. Meaning that one could play the game normally without buying anything, but people who enjoy the game could get extras and cheats for a small price.

For larger and more complex games I think you could even push it farther into something like a try-to-buy system.

Discuss...

Something like this unfortunately invalidates some of the free license agreements out there. Like I don't think the free license for TweenLite/Max would allow for microtransactions.

Possibly.
Ideally you would be able to make enough money from the sales to afford the paid license though. If you're not making that much money from it, then it's probably not worth your time to implement the coins system in the first place.

Without asking for details you may not be comfortable giving, have you had much success with your implementation of mochi coins in the game you linked?

The game I am working on now would might work with micropayments. It is a dungeon crawl game and selling new dungeons or character classes would make sense for it. I am using TweenMax right now so definately not something I would do for launch. If the game was popular I could maybe offset licensing fees with it though.

Hard to tell if micro transactions or just ads would work better. With ads I could try and keep things fresh by trickling out content and keeping an active email list that informs players when little additions are made (intentionally staggering content release to hopefully draw players back for another few games each time). They might be less likely to come back if they knew they had to pay a buck for the new content.


Micro transactions have certainly been successful in the past, but it really seems to me to be something to add after the fact to a successful game instead of something to launch with. Flash success seems to be a really random thing. Some great games just don't get much attention while other games which are just another lame variation on 'how far can you jump/throw/fly' become popular.

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Originally Posted by Alluvian

Something like this unfortunately invalidates some of the free license agreements out there. Like I don't think the free license for TweenLite/Max would allow for microtransactions.

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humm...same with box 2d?

Im a bit worried that hackers find these locked swfs good targets. Because the stuff you get from coins still has to be included within swf, it means it can be decompiled and unlocked too. Once the hacked version gets out, all those game portals will use it instead of your official version. Does it feature any new security stuff?

Nonoba has a stuff like that, dont seems to be working:
http://www.nonoba.com/developers/for...nonoba-payment

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have you had much success with your implementation of mochi coins in the game you linked?

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Not really. :)
Currently I'm making more from the ads than from sales of the in-game content.
I think a game could potentially do very well though with the right audience and the right items for sale.
Plant Pong isn't a hugely popular game and I don't think the items I have for sale are particularly compelling. It's mostly an experiment for me at this point.

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They might be less likely to come back if they knew they had to pay a buck for the new content.

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Very true.
Again, I think it will depend on the game. Some will be able to get away with selling that type of content and some won't. I think a good option would be to give away the new levels for free, but offer superfluous extras for a fee (cheat codes/items, new clothes for characters, etc).

Once people get more used to the system I think it will become easier to sell content as well. Especially since people will be more willing to buy something if they already have some coins sitting in their account. At that point it's less like spending real money.

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it really seems to me to be something to add after the fact to a successful game instead of something to launch with. Flash success seems to be a really random thing. Some great games just don't get much attention while other games which are just another lame variation on 'how far can you jump/throw/fly' become popular.

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I totally agree.

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Originally Posted by Incrue

humm...same with box 2d?

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Box2D uses a free zlib/libpng license so it shouldn't matter.

@tonypa:
I don't think there are any new security features, but I'm not that worried about it.
Sure you might lose some potential revenue if someone posts a hacked version, but you will definitely lose that revenue if you never use the system in the first place.

There will always be thieves and bootleggers, it's just something we'll have to live with.

Call me slow to jump on the bandwagon but this is the first time I ever heard of MochiCoins. After doing the research I think it's a terrific idea- that if properly utilized and safe-guarded could provide a decent career to the many casual coders who would like to ride the Flash freelancer train full-time instead of only after the day job. With the right business strategy I bet some games would have the potential to make not just thousands, but millions of dollars.

I can see it working very well in the case of say, a game that has 5 levels and you can play half (so you're getting you're advergame income already) and then just as the player is getting hooked you ask for a small fee, say $0.50, to continue. 50 cents, come on, NOBODY is going to whine about that. In fact, even if the game does get leaked and people discover they've paid for nothing, I don't think anyone is going to p*ss&moan, after all it's a kind of charity that all goes towards the developer making great games of the same calibre. The extra $$$ will motivate some into developing top-quality professional level games, but at the same time the indy section of the industry will still exist and available for all.

It's good that Flash is at a point where the casual coder harbours real earning power- not quite the time for major gaming companies to start dipping their fingers in yet.

Real slap on the back for Mochi for doing a good job and always coming out with great and creative ideas. I'll definitely be looking into MochiCoins for my next project.

You're not too slow. It's brand new--still in private beta. I don't think they've even made any official announcements yet.

Again I think the success is going to come down to how well they do getting people to sign up for (and fund) accounts. I might balk at paying 50¢ if I have to get out my wallet, but if it's only going to cost me 400 'coins' from my account then I wouldn't think twice.

That's part of the reason iPhone games are so successful. Since they already have your credit card on file you just press Buy without even thinking about it. You never have that moment to reconsider when you're actually getting out your wallet to make the payment.

Right, the impulse buys will only work for those who already have coins in their mochi accounts.

The people who will balk at 50 cents are the ones who have to stop playing your game, do some research on what mochi coins IS, then register for mochi coins, probably requiring email verification, and then pull out their wallets, and then probably buy a lot more than 50 cents worth of coins, all just to play a few more levels in a flash game????

That is crazy. It will only work if Mochi coins gets big to the point where most avid flash gamers already have an account with a few bucks worth of coins just burning a hole in their account pockets. But if that does happen, then it will be very nice as the impulse buys will be an easy sell.

The only problem I see is what Alluvian mentioned. Many many casual gamers won't even know what MochiCoins is, and it would be hard to target just them. I wouldn't suggest the "pay .50$ to keep playing" model, as that would piss them off. Instead, sell it off differently, and make everyone think they're playing the full game. Between levels or something, you can show offers of "extra" levels, another campaign, more weapons, everything for the low low price of 1-2$. This way, casual gamers won't get annoyed while playing, as they feel the real deal and genuineness of the game, and the ones that REALLY fall in love with the game, will take the time to look up MochiCoins, or already have an account, etc.

I think the best way to exploit MochiCoins the most, will be by hiding it the best in your game...don't really blend it, but stow it away as to not really interfere.

P.

I imagine Mochi will give you some free coins at sign up, just to get the ball rolling.

It's the same with everything though, I don't have a credit card so I can't buy things from the Xbox arcade, I have to buy a points card ( With my debit card ) from Amazon.

Cadin, good thread mate :) I seem to have been talking micro-transactions everywhere recently so I'm a bit burnt out ( Yeah, I'm a hypocrite ) but as soon as that passes I'll be sure to post some questions here, as I have a few.

Squize.

Pazil:
I think you're mostly right.
It will be a balance though. You want the pay features to be visible enough that people know they're there, but you don't want it to be to bothersome or pushy for those that won't be interested.

Squize:
I'm not sure if they are giving free coins for signing up, but you can get free coins by completing some product trial offers (surveys and whatnot).

You can fund your account with PayPal so you shouldn't need a credit card (PayPal can be linked to a regular bank account).

There's still the problem of young kids who don't have any means for online payment. I guess this is a huge issue in the MMO space where micro-transactions are a huge revenue source. In Asian countries where these games are super popular I think kids can buy small denomination point cards with cash at brick & mortar stores.

I'm a bit burnt out on this as well at the moment. There's a lot of talk right now, but we're all going to have a while still to see how everything plays out.
There's a thread going on MochiAds about this right now too:
https://www.mochiads.com/community/f...mochicoins#172

The Mochi guys are on there answering some general questions, but still keeping pretty tight lipped about the exact details.

Great discussion guys! We've been learning a lot about what's working and not working in the few games that have launched so far. We'll be putting our research into case studies to better inform the community on how others have successfully implemented MochiCoins.

Here's an article on TechCrunch about MochiCoins.

http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/06/25...-are-stunning/

Speak of the devil...

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Originally Posted by cadin

Speak of the devil...

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:yarr: yarr

@cadin, RE MMOs.
This all pretty much started with the asian MMOs and has spilled over slowly into the US, some of the asian games are relatively popular here like Maple Story, and then you have games like Puzzle Pirates, and Free Realms that fund themselves through microtransactions. My wife works for SOE, so I don't want to go into details on Free Realms as I am fuzzy on where the line is between public and private info.

The big companies are definately catching on, SOE, and Cartoon Network as well with their MMO FuzionFall. Whether big projects like that can be profitable on microtransactions is yet to be seen. Puzzle Pirates has cut out a nice niche, but that is much smaller on the dev end than something like FreeRealms

I just find it odd that the US companies are so heavily targeting the child demographic. Sure, a child can annoy their mom for $5 here or $10 there, but I think adults would be far more likely to fall for impulse buys. A child has a pretty fixed income. Adults have all that beer money waiting to be spent on something else.

You cant seriously expect anyone spending the beer money on anything else.

Well, it isn't REALLY beer money until it is spent on beer. They use up their money earmarked for beer on mochi coins, and then when they realize they have no beer money they transfer money from less important things like food, clothing, rent, children's allowance...

All money is beer money, it's just that life gets in the way.

Squize.

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Originally Posted by Alluvian

Sure, a child can annoy their mom for $5 here or $10 there, but I think adults would be far more likely to fall for impulse buys. A child has a pretty fixed income. Adults have all that beer money waiting to be spent on something else.

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I think you're wrong about that.
I mean sure, if you're talking about 6 year olds they don't have much cash. But I'm thinking more about 12 to 16 year olds. They actually have a lot of disposable income, but don't usually have the means (credit cards, etc) to spend it online. Sure adults make more money, but we have many more things to spend it on (like delicious frothy beverages).

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Originally Posted by cadin

There's still the problem of young kids who don't have any means for online payment. I guess this is a huge issue in the MMO space where micro-transactions are a huge revenue source. In Asian countries where these games are super popular I think kids can buy small denomination point cards with cash at brick & mortar stores.

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Originally Posted by cadin

I think you're wrong about that.
I mean sure, if you're talking about 6 year olds they don't have much cash. But I'm thinking more about 12 to 16 year olds. They actually have a lot of disposable income, but don't usually have the means (credit cards, etc) to spend it online. Sure adults make more money, but we have many more things to spend it on (like delicious frothy beverages).

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Anyone who's played Maple Story will tell you it's quite easy for US citizens to go to any Target, 7-11, CVS, Rite-Aid, couple of book stores, etc, and buy a prepaid "NX" cash card for purchasing gear in-game, so I don't think it would be that much of an issue.


Source: Nexon Game Card Locations

I agree with cadin. From what I know (I'm no where near being an adult), adults will tend to spend some money on MMORPG's, let's say like World of Warcraft, but for Flash games online?

This is another assumption I'm making, but from what I generally see at school, is those groups of kids that stay their lunches inside playing video games on laptops...It's the teen stage where they get money from their jobs, but don't have the financial responsibilities to spend money on serious stuff. So their stuff goes to gaming stuff, and if a fraction of them are into online Flash games, especially one that catches their attention, they're the perfect demographic.

Let me tell you, the 500 or so USD I've made through Flash freelance looks like a tiny amount when staring at the number 500 sitting in my PayPal. I assume that a kid that likes to waste money on computer gaming would see the same with the money they made, and might spend up to 100 bucks on gaming...As was mentioned before, actually looking at the dollor bills your giving away is way different then seeing some 3 digit numbers moving around the screen.

These are my guesses, and what I've been able to see in my own school...though I'd really like to see what adults think?
I realize you can't label all adults to think the same way, but as mentioned, from what I know, spending a few dollars on an official RPG is the farthest I've heard people go, save for the 1 in a million nutcases who buy those funny little orc costumes...

P.

EDIT:
@ImprisonedPride:
Awesome! Even better...Except I don't think we can cash in on Nexon cards in our games (if we can?)?

Prepaid cards are the way to go. Over here in Japan you can go down to your local store and use the automated online machines they have to order anything but the kitchen sink. When you get your receipt you take it to the cashier and pay then and there. I always have trouble with my credit card here so I do all my PS3 account funding that way.
Don't know if they have anything like that in the States or the UK now but it's a terrific convenience- if MochiCoins starts taking off the staff there should look into getting a similar retail purchase system up and going.
p.s. i agree with the fact that member charging to continue a game is not such a great idea after all- buying extras is better- BUT what I had in mind was that they basically have an entire game first, and the money is a few extra levels or secrets and the like, aimed at the hardcore players who should be cashing you up a little if they play your game so much anyway.
I could see myself reaching into my pockets to continue some great adventure game if the following conditions were met;
a) the money results in instantaneous access. The second I pay I want the e-mail with the keycode or whatever, no hanging about for 2 days while they 'confirm' my funds or some bs.
b) it has a set-in-stone, well-known security system for the payment, like PayPal.
c) I get some good value for the money. Tons of goodies. I know it's only a dollar or whatever but if it's only a single level I'm getting then I will be rather peeved unless I'm a big fan of the author's other games or something.

Pazil, that wasn't what I was implying. I was simply saying that it's not so rare in the states for the young to make online payments with the help of prepaid cards.

Implying what?...I didn't say that you were implying anything at all!
In fact, I saw your post only after I posted mine already, since it took me a while to write it while doing other things.

I was just saying what I saw at school etc. etc., just to gather my own thoughts and tell you guys what I think...?

I can see a bright future for flash game developers if mochicoins can manage to become big and a kind of Flash app store. As it has been said before, the key is to store credit card info in database. When you use an iPhone for the first time, it's really impressive how easy it is to buy something...

I was under the impression you were asking how we could implement Nexon cards themselves and I just meant that anyone could distribute cards.

Oh, I meant us using the Nexon cash system (Nexon points compatible with our games), but I checked it out, and it seems only the really big games use it...so unless you make a massive RPG, you're out.

Then again, that's why we have MochiCoins. I was just interested about Nexon, as it's already established, and probably already has huge amounts of customers.

Interesting link loosely connected to this:

http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/03/16/arpu-vs-arppu/

Squize.

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Originally Posted by Squize

Interesting link loosely connected to this:

http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/03/16/arpu-vs-arppu/

Squize.

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Thanks, thats a good one.

Great link, Raphe has a great head on his shoulders, and is a brilliant wordsmith for communicating those ideas. I hold him responsible for almost all the good things in UO and SWG, although he was not able (or not interested) in holding off the huge changes that critically wounded both of those games (splitting shards in UO, and the NGE class revamp in SWG). Although the NGE change was in response to a combat mechanic that was broken to start with (3 health bars was a BAD idea).

I think Raphe tends to get overly absorbed in the aspects of the game that excite him (the virtual societies and how we interact in them) and he tends to ignore the game itself. I am both confused and curious about Metaplace. I have to admit I have not followed it very closely.

Our worlds are about to change drastically...

I hope nobody thinks this will be easy money though. You don't just slap in buyable items into any old game and expect people to pay. This will work best for probably 1% cream of the crop games with lots of depth and replay value. The success of all the asian MMOs, and even the massively influential H a b b 0Hotel, is providing free access, free enjoyment, and then selling "extra perks". The key is not making regular "free" players feel too excluded, and then converting them into paying players. (ie: In H a b b 0 you can chat all you want and stare at your empty room, but pretty soon you can get jealous of other people's "cool stuff" and that's when you reach for your wallet).

In Maple Story you can play quite a bit of the game for free (all of it?) but you're stuck with your boring white shirt and limited weaponry.

The idea to get a player up to a certain point and then throwing up "pay XXX to keep playing" likely won't work all that well. It's a barrier. The player has to feel invested in the game first and just cutting them right off makes it really easy to say "F it" and move on to the next game, if they aren't heavily "invested" in the game already.

I think it is a fascinating subject. It brings up some possibilities for some pretty clever marketing schemes.

I do think you need to create a need. Honestly who needs a virtual weapon or a cool chair for a webgame? A drive could be competition or conformation (but you'd need to get the ball going in that case). I have to dig up my books on strategic communication on this one.

I do think you need to keep the balance between free and paid like others noted. A good example is the Wizards of the Coast (Magic the Gathering) PR blurb that players that don't buy a lot of cards have a chance of winning, as there's skill involved. Everybody knows however, that you would have a bigger chance of winning with a better deck of cards. So you put skill versus money. This actually allows identification with the skilled group if you're not really into spending a lot of money and bieng able to mock the spending group for using a form of cheating. I think this is the best way to handle this: you could get it by making money/achieving goals ingame, but it would take a lot more time and effort to get it then spending money on it.

(I loved the concepts in that first reply on ARPU vs ARPPU, spending money to make virtual money and using rivalry between groups of players)